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Deterioration of Body or Mind: Which Is Scarier?

post #1 of 21
Thread Starter 
The themes of a breakdown in the integrity of one's self - in either a physical or mental sense - is a recuring one in horror cinema. There are numerous examples of each, such as the deterioration of Seth Brundle as the fly DNA takes an increasingly invasive hold of his body in "The Fly". Or the prospect of a horrible, virulent and fatal disease ravaging your body (and the bodies of those around you) that we see in films like "Cabin Fever." One could probably even argue that scenes of foreign creatures violating your bodily integrity (such as the infant spiders in "The Mist", or "Alien"'s chest bursters) are along the same lines. The reasons this theme is scary are pretty radily apparent; the most basic, primal vessel for the essence of our selves is our physical body. If our bodies are troubled in some fashion (injury, disease, deficiency, whatever), it could be game over for us as mortal beings on all levels. No higher functions are possible if all isn't right with our bodies. Keeping them intact is our most driving instinct. Anything that threatens the integrity of our bodies is therefore terrifying; the worse the threat to the integrity, the worse the fear. The "Cabin Fever" disease scares us a hell of a lot more than a bout of measles, for instance. "Alien" scares us more than, say, a (non-malaria-bearing) mosquito.

But what of the integrity of the mind? It's probably easier to get the visceral reaction you want as a horror director with films about the disintegration or invasion of bodily integrity, so I'd be willing to bet there are more such stories out there (on film, at least). The subtlety and skill it would take to make a believable, understandable film about the breakdown of one's mind are, I'd argue, harder to pull off. So I posit there are fewer of this type of tale around. But is this theme scarier than the violation of bodily integrity?

Are the horrible hallucinations Tim Robbins sees in "Jacob's Ladder" scarier than anything I've mentioned above? Is Jack Torrance's mental breakdown, which causes him to try to hunt down and brutally kill his own wife and child, more disturbing than something so pedestrian as spider eggs hatching inside you (although to be fair, "The Shining" had some haunted house elements added to the mix, but I still think Jack's mental breakdown - aided as it was by the hotel's spooks - was still the central theme)?

I took acid a couple times while I was in college, and the most salient feature to LSD, if you ask me, is the fact that for some reason it disrupts your ability to think clearly. Have you ever tried having a conversation while on acid? Or tried having one w/ someone who was? I wish I had video of the 6 of us tripping out and trying to explain the basics of the theory of evolution to one guy who was just starting to study it in high school, and didn't yet understand it. We were all just a bunch of babbling idiots. You can picture what you mean to say in your head, but can't clearly articulate it. You lose the thread of a thought in mid sentence, and regaining it is just tantalizingly out of reach. It can be very frustrating.

And you can find yourself going down some mysterious paths of thought pushed almost to its logical conclusion in sometimes wonderful, and sometimes terrible, ways (the much feared "bad trip"). Most of the acid you get these days is weaker (comparatively speaking) to the stuff floating around in the 60's. So hallucinations aren't as prominent or intense as they used to be. But the disruption of your cognitive abilities seems to be a constant in all strength levels. I recall thinking: "God, this is scary! I'm glad this is only a temporary condition". You take your ability to reason for granted, and never realize just how important it is to be able to think clearly until you can't do it any more. But these trips gave me just a taste of what insanity must be like; we purposely went somewhere to do this where we wouldn't be around anyone that would get freaked out by our doing it (like a dude's off campus house, or out in the woods or something), and consequently everyone around knew we were doing this, and if anyone started acting weird, would know why. Most also having some experience in this area could also help "down" anyone that was getting too out of hand, keeping freaking out to a minimum. I shudder to think what such a deterioration with a) no definable end in sight, such as the 12 hours or so it takes your body to process a hit of LSD; 2) Often, no definable, tangible cause (this isn't just a drug that's going to pass out of your system eventually; it's for real, and it could be forever); 3) No one along for the ride, or truly understanding of what you're experiencing. When Helen started spouting off about the Candyman, they locked her ass up, sedated her and put her in a strait jacket.

The philosopher Descartes (the guy who coined "I think, therefore I am") posited that all we as humans have to verify anything is what we experience of the world through our senses. Most of us just accept what we see, hear, feel, smell & taste as a given, rarely if ever doubting the evidence of our own senses. But if you suddenly have reason to start doubting that. . . If every basic assumption about your world is suddenly called into question. . . That will rock you to your core, I'd argue. Imagine the terror you'd feel when you're not only seeing the little green men, but you realize no one else can. Do you believe or doubt what you KNOW you're seeing? Is it more comfortable to be chased by monsters no one else can see, or realize you've gone mad? If those are your only alternatives, things have become pretty bleak indeed.

So I guess I come down on the "mental breakdown is scarier" side. Although it's close (the bodily integrity theme can be especially vicious by throwing another fear/phobia into the mix, such as "The Mist" using arachnophobia, or "Cabin Fever" using germophobia. But a mental breakdown promises a longer, more lingering torture in most cases. Horrible as the bodily integrity violations are in the aforementioned films and their ilk, the ends the victims meet are usually quick. You may be locked in that rubber room, alone with your twisted thoughts and the demons no one else can see, for a long, long time.

What's your opinion? We'd like to know.
post #2 of 21
Disintegration of the body for me. The thing that made you empathize with Brundle was that he was fully cognizant of what was happening to him, he could ariculate and intellectualize his experience, so he could still fool himself into thinking there was hope, but all that did was make his unavoidable descent all the more difficult for him to accept. It was all the more terrifying because his intellect, his greatest asset, couldn't save him, it eventually came to mean nothing.

It's like being buried alive, you're fucking there for the entire dismal experience, and you can't do anything about it.

I'm not sure if I can fully appreciate mental disintegration, it's almost like death to me, it's not something I think a lot of people can come back from with a coherent view of their experience. I don't think I can posit a solid point of reference. It's just easier for human beings to comment on common physical/somatic experiences than emotional ones.
post #3 of 21
Jacknife makes some good points. When physical deterioration reaches a certain point, yet the mind is still operating at full capacity, that's hard to beat scare-wise. And there's really no counterpart on the other side: once you've lost a certain amount of mental processes, then it's not even you anymore, and therefore there's seemingly less to be afraid of.

However, at the earlier stages, mental is easily worse. I'd much rather lose a limb than lose a dozen points of IQ (or control over certain faculties, etc.)
post #4 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
Jacknife makes some good points. When physical deterioration reaches a certain point, yet the mind is still operating at full capacity, that's hard to beat scare-wise. And there's really no counterpart on the other side: once you've lost a certain amount of mental processes, then it's not even you anymore. . . .
Isn't THAT a terrifying prospect, though? Sort of a death itself. And one of the reasons, many seem to think, zombie movies are so popular; they give us a glimpse of what it'd be like to be walking around as some. . .thing other than our selves. A complete loss of our personality, our volition, our SELVES. A complete mental breakdown has to be analogous, and equally as frightenming.
post #5 of 21
My father lost his mind. It made him sort of peaceful, I guess, he became an idiot. When I get drunk and stay up until five in the morning, I think that's what death is like. Wanting to stay awake one more minute. I would rather not lose my mind.
post #6 of 21
Quote:
Isn't THAT a terrifying prospect, though? Sort of a death itself.
Yeah, it is a death. It's just that the other stuff we're talking about is worse (to me).

Once I'm "gone," it doesn't matter, in some sense, whether my body walks around as a zombie, or whether an 8-bit consciousness still kicks around in my brain... as long as I don't experience or remember it, then it can't be that much worse than slowly decomposing in a coffin.

Whereas turning into the fly, and knowing I'm turning into the fly, brings that added feature of still having all my brilliance intact but useless.
post #7 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post

However, at the earlier stages, mental is easily worse. I'd much rather lose a limb than lose a dozen points of IQ (or control over certain faculties, etc.)
Let's say I was close to Dre in the same situation with my father. All too sudden. The defining and horrific moments are the earlier stages. Vade retro any mental illness.
post #8 of 21
Thread Starter 
Whereas my brilliance is already intact but largely useless now.
post #9 of 21
I think the comparison is slightly off if you go with physical deterioration = turning into a fly vs. mental deterioration = ceasing to be/realize who you are. The ultimate expression of each is essentially death, thus "turning into a fly" isn't so much the end result, but just another step on the way to the ultimate deterioration of the body (death). The real terror in either scenario lies in the journey, not the arrival, which would essentially be the same - once the mind goes, the body goes and vice versa.

Considered independently of the horror genre, we're basically talking arthritis* vs. Alzheimer's. Neither seems like a picnic to me, but Alzheimer's is somewhat scarier for me, maybe because I've seen someone go through it.

There's a lot of terror inherent in not being yourself, but having the awareness to know you're not being yourself, as one does in the early stages of Alzheimer's. There's the LSD analogy that Iggy drew, but I have to admit that it didn't quite have the same effect on me, maybe specifically because I knew there was an end in sight. I understood this fear much more acutely when I went through a prolonged bout of insomnia and anxiety a couple of years ago. Everything went surreal for a few weeks, my recall abilities were crap, and I went from hyper-emotional to completely numb at the drop of a hat (yet I was still articulate enough that my doctor seemed to think I was exaggerating things). And, unlike with LSD, I had no idea when or if I was going to get better, which was probably the worst part.

* There's probably a better example than this. I was trying to come up with a common, progressive condition that's strictly physical in manifestation. Of the others I thought of, MS can have cognitive effects and cerebral palsy is non-progressive. Maybe some sort of spinal paralysis from an accident?
post #10 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg View Post
Isn't THAT a terrifying prospect, though? Sort of a death itself. And one of the reasons, many seem to think, zombie movies are so popular; they give us a glimpse of what it'd be like to be walking around as some. . .thing other than our selves. A complete loss of our personality, our volition, our SELVES. A complete mental breakdown has to be analogous, and equally as frightenming.
That's interesting to me, because Romero's two best zombie films didn't seem to dwell on that - they weren't the navel-gazers his later efforts seem to be shaping up as. In both NOTLD and Dawn, the message seemed to be that the dead, once they're dead, don't matter anymore - it's the living who count. The dead, no matter how massive their numbers, are unimportant. The living, no matter how few, are crucial.

What are the zombie films that best play up the fear of BECOMING one of the dead?
post #11 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
What are the zombie films that best play up the fear of BECOMING one of the dead?
Return of the Living Dead does this really well. The scene where the half-zombie on the table laments "the pain of being dead" is probably my favorite in the whole movie, and the painful transformations of Frank and Freddy cast pretty dark shadows on an otherwise funny zombie movie.
post #12 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post

However, at the earlier stages, mental is easily worse. I'd much rather lose a limb than lose a dozen points of IQ (or control over certain faculties, etc.)
This point is *exactly* what makes "Flowers for Algernon" so devastating. And horrible.
post #13 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post
Return of the Living Dead does this really well. The scene where the half-zombie on the table laments "the pain of being dead" is probably my favorite in the whole movie, and the painful transformations of Frank and Freddy cast pretty dark shadows on an otherwise funny zombie movie.
Good call. I was just thinking that Roger's deathbed soliloquy in Dawn of the Dead doesn't do a bad job of it either.
post #14 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
What are the zombie films that best play up the fear of BECOMING one of the dead?
I think they all kind of do, to a greater or lesser degree, because this is what the survivors are striving against: becoming one of the walking, soulless dead. Roger's deathbed speech from DOTD has already been cited as an example, but I think almost all your "Traditional" Romero-esque zombie films have at least one line of dialogue where the survivors note how terrible it would be to be transformed into a zombie, and how they're saving the last bullet for themselves, or the make another character promise to "do the right thing" when the time comes, etc.
post #15 of 21
I have personal experience with both in real life and while they're both bad losing one's mind is worse. For example Spider while a lesser movie than The Fly had a bigger effect on me. Your body is only one part of who you are, your mind controls your whole reality
post #16 of 21
I think losing my mind would be a more horrific thing to actually experience, but in terms of watching a movie the more visceral stuff gets to me more. Maybe because it hits me on that primal level, or maybe because it's easier for me to imagine pain than it is to imagine going insane. I've never really even come close to knowing what it would feel like to lose my mind. Watching it happen to someone in a movie can be very disturbing but ultimately I think there's always at least a slight disconnect for me. Maybe it would be different if I'd ever had a really bad trip or witnessed a loved one go senile or something like.

Then again, should I really have to be able to relate to something in a film personally to be able to be affected by it? No, normally I wouldn't agree with that. So maybe that's not the reason. As DaveB points out, the end point of both is pretty much the same, but physical deterioration or harm in a movie is showing a more stark contrast between life and death whereas madness is a little more abstract. Seeing the grisly stuff in The Fly or The Mist is a harsh reminder of my mortality and the fragility of my body. Even now just thinking about the pharmacy scene in The Mist makes me feel kind of sick and weirdly depressed (although part of that is that I'm also very arachnophobic).
post #17 of 21
Quote:
Originally Posted by teledork View Post
This point is *exactly* what makes "Flowers for Algernon" so devastating. And horrible.
Indeed. Among the more disturbing books I've read for precisely that reason.

I'd say that mental deterioration is far more disturbing, but I'd readily admit that might be my own preference alone. I think it has to do with comprehensibility- the fear of the unknown is a well-known kind, and is much more likely to attach to madness than to mutation.
post #18 of 21
The Incredible Shrinking Man is the film that scares me the most in regards to deterioration. Brundle turning into a fly is so vividly grotesque and hyper-real, that it's easier to write off as SFX (though I fucking love the movie). Shrinking Man though, as Sci-Fi as it is, horrifies me when I consider it. The idea of a malady that is physically imperceptible, one where it could almost seem the world is changing (getting bigger) rather than yourself, is difficult to think about.

Even more horrifying is that, as the shrinking progresses you find yourself unable to communicate with anyone. This is due purely to the logistics of physics, but the fact remains that you will quickly be incapable of relating to anyone else- a terrifying thought.

There is also physical/mental disconnect that would be entirely unique to this kind of situation. It is one that connects physical and mental deterioration fear and combines it into the ultimate kind of isolation. Arthritis might prevent you from physically being able to use a pencil, and Alzheimer's might prevent you from remembering how to use a pencil, but shrinking would fundamentally change your existence in relation to a pencil. You would know how to use it, and be (relatively) physically able to use it, but the pencil would have become something new, different, and unrelatable even as your gestalt-based perception of the pencil remained the same.

In other words, The Incredible Shrinking Man scares the intellectual shit out of me.

And to answer your question; both.
post #19 of 21
A lot of the most articulate and thoughtful conversations I've ever had were on LSD, weird. It causes a lot of disorientation and dislocated thoughts at the onset, but I find that once the trip stabilizes the conversation really starts to flow.

Also, I would vote for deterioration of the body as the scariest. Certainly going insane or losing your ability to think rationally would be no picnic, but the idea of having a perfectly functional brain and being trapped in a rotting/mutating husk of some sort plain terrifies me.

I suppose slipping into insanity indicates some sort of 'going away' to me, like you're there but really not there and falling apart. Watching your body deteriorate while you're still fully conscious and aware the full time seems like a much more horrible fate. There's no escape then except suicide, and if you're really far gone you may not have the strength to even manage that.
post #20 of 21
But, if you are going insane losing all rational thought, are you really going to notice?

I'd go with deterioration of the body, take Johnny Got His Gun, losing all your limbs, being struck blind, deaf and mute. To quote Metallica's "One"

"Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell"

That is just a horrible prospect, and oddly enough you would probably go insane.
post #21 of 21
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werewolf Girl View Post
Also, I would vote for deterioration of the body as the scariest. Certainly going insane or losing your ability to think rationally would be no picnic, but the idea of having a perfectly functional brain and being trapped in a rotting/mutating husk of some sort plain terrifies me.

I kind of liken this to being really drunk; There have been times I've gotten really drunk, but still been able to think perfectly clearly. I just couldn't walk or speak. On one such occasion, I just KNEW from much hard learned experience that I was so drunk there was no doubt I'd end up puking before the end of the night. Consequently, I didn't want to go to bed until after I'd been sick. My friend Karin happened along and found me in this sorry state (literally dragging myself along the dorm wall b/c I couldn't walk straight), and started leading me to my room. I tried to protest, and explain my situation to her. But I was so hammerd I couldn't get my mouth to work right, and my speech was so horribly slurred and mangled I couldn't make myself understood. After a few minutes I just gave up & let her lead me to my room, where I pretended to go to bed. I waited a few minutes til I was sure she was gone, and then staggered back out into the hall to await the inevitable. In order to speed it up, I laid down on the floor in the hall outside the men's room, hoping to give myself the spins so I'd get the inevitable sickness over that much faster. This guy Dave (big Jamaican dude) and his girl came out of Dave's room down the hall, and caught sight of me. Dave walked over & stood above me, & asked: "'Ey mon; you OK?" I replied (my powers of speech having more or less returned by this point) & explained what I was doing. Dave let out a hearty laugh and went on his way, assuring his woman I was indeed OK. Shortly thereafter, the inevitable occurred, and shortly after THAT I went to sleep.

The point of the story is, while this was a minor and in hindsight comical frustration, I can extrapolate that to being in the same situation day after day, and it is indeed horrifying. BUt I still give the nod to mental breakdown. An additional reason for this, I guess, is the embarrassment and stigma attached to mental illness. I mean, you get cancer, you get sympathy before you get ridicule. You go crazy? Might be the other way around.
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