Collateral - Page 2

I loved Collateral when I first saw but I have lost my affinity for it on subsequent viewings. Whereas I initially disliked Miami Vice and am now convinced it's one of Mann's greatest films.

I usually find more to appreciate with multiple viewings of Mann's films, however over time Collateral has become boring to watch.

Yeah, what I should have said is that it's nice sometimes to have an opposing view in a thread full of people who really appreciate the work, that's all.

Also, Rath: Really? Where did you get that from? Crank came out two years later and has a TOTALLY different tone! If this is true it makes me hate it's inclusion even more! Why unite these two universes? It's like making a dogma styled Harry Potter film!

No worries, I gotcha. And yeah, this thread would be pretty dull without opposing viewpoints to discuss.

"Gee, I sure like Collateral!"
"Me too! Score!"
...

You can't sustain a thread like that.

Am in the middle of a rewatch. Absolutely love the first scene Foxx and Pinkett share early in the movie. Like both characters, I really didn't want that cab ride to end.

I'm going to be lazy and quote myself from the Michael Mann Appreciation thread about one scene in the film.

Reading through this thread and giving the 'conventional third act' some more thought...

There is nothing 'wrong' with the third act. In fact, I don't know how else the film should end. I think my problem with it has always been the fact that for 2/3rds of its runtime, the film felt loose, effortless, and episodic without feeling directionless. Whatever structure was going on in the storytelling didn't show. But the moment the 'chase is on,' that spell is broken and you can see the machine's innards grinding away.

Been wanting to revisit this film for awhile now, and this thread is making me anxious for the Blu-Ray edition (due out March 30th)!

The conventionality of the third act never bothered me. The rhythm of the scenes in conjunction with the perfect music makes everything a joy to watch.

Likely a film in my top 10 of the '00s.

I believe this was just a typo on his part. If anything, that was Statham's character from THE TRANSPORTER, not CRANK.

This move is hypnotic.

Wasn't Statham originally in the Max role, but had to drop out?

But what would you say is the difference in the way the third act is executed? That's when the strands are pulled tightly together. The whole movie builds towards the moment when Max crashes the taxi and everything after. In an earlier post you mentioned the chase and silly low battery situations. I assume that's an example of what you mean by being able to see the machine's innards grinding away, the little fallbacks on convention. But by that point in the movie they are used very specifically. Max is still trying to help without actually committing himself. The phone dying is the punctuation that he is literally alone, that no one else will help him, and that he must to confront Vincent in order to stop him. The entire film is sort of a series of events that slowly but surely strip away the walls of Max's comfort zone. It starts right at the beginning, when he gives his island picture to Annie.

I'm rambling, but I guess my point is that I don't see the third act as somehow separate from the other two in tone or execution or ideas. From the moment Max gives up the picture, the story is reducing his world to the final shootout.

Thanks for reminding me. Absolutely loved this movie at first sight, and still my second favorite Mann flick.

The first, last, and only time an Audioslave song would ever reach this level of greatness.

Indeed. Last summer, I rewatched Collateral in anticipation of Public Enemies. I hadn't seen it since it hit DVD, and that first viewing I found rewarding, but with reservations. A lot of those reservations were with the third act. Quite simply, I was watching a different movie than what was on screen.

Second viewing, last summer, everything changed, my estimation of Collateral rose sharply. I don't want to go about ranking the Mann filmography at this time, but Collateral shot up there, that's for sure. I'd make the argument that the nightclub shootout is as tense and exciting as anything Mann has ever put on screen, including the much ballyhooed Heat shootout.

Back to that third act, and I've talked about this before, whether or not you buy into the cosmic mumbo jumbo that Mann is throwing down here is what will make or break the picture for you. Of course I'm not saying you have to buy into the philosphy for realz, but there isn't a frame of the movie that doesn't belong, in a thematic sense. It's airtight.

I believe my issues aren't about the ideas, but more of the tone and execution. And a lot of that is really about the expectations I put upon the film. I actually love the point you made above about how everything that happens in the film is meant to reduce Max's comfort zone to nothing. I think it makes complete sense. But that feeling I had from my first impression of the film is hard to shake. It's a gut thing and I'll just have to see if my feeling changes in the future.

Always appreciate your insight into Mann's films. This and The Insider.

You're far too kind. (Seriously.)

But I absolutely appreciate your perspective. Once you get sour on something like that it's tough to go another way.

I really do love the film. It does too much right for me not to. I can actually compare it to the way I feel about The Mist. Love everything up to the 'ending.' But my disappointment with each respective film's conclusion doesn't stop me from watching them again.

Mann's best film. I appreciate the ending for it keeping in line with that the film is about - expecting the unexpected.

Maybe that's part of the problem for me. Unexpected would have been the bad guy winning.

I have no doubt this is gonna be one of the most stunning films I own on Blu-Ray. Just thinking about the night scenes and the extraordinary color palette Mann uses is enough reason to buy a Blu-Ray player. Films like this is what the medium was born for.

Strongly disagree.

It's a good movie, no doubt. But the ending is what you expect, presented in an unexpected fashion. But better than Mohicans, Heat, or the Insider? Nah.

Never heard anything about that, but Adam Sandler was gonna be the cabbie early on.

Russell Crowe was slated to play Max at some stage as well, if I recall correctly.

I stand corrected. He was gonna be Vincent before he pulled out.

Yeah, Statham and Sandler are the two names I remember from pre-production.

This is leagues better than MOHICANS, which is rollickingly entertaining but not much more. Third-best Mann behind THE INSIDER and HEAT, in that order. Although I haven't watch ALI in a good long while.

You shut your whore mouth.

I just read through this whole thread and I want to thank everyone for bringing such passionate conviction to their points in it. I love reading intelligent discussions on films that affect me deeply. I've had a really great time reading through everything here. I just saw this movie for the first time, and I adored it. I wasn't expecting much (I'm on more of a pre-2000s movies kick right now), and it really caught me off-guard.

 

The one thing that disappointed me was the Jada Pinkett-Smith character being the last target. I thought that was a rather contrived plot twist following what had, up to that point, seemed like a very realistic/plausible and natural plot. That was really my only objection. I thought to myself, "oh, so it's going to lead to a 'he becomes a hero and gets the girl' ending now", which just sort of took all the suspense and unpredictability out of the movie. As others have said, at that point I could see the wheels turning towards an obvious conclusion, but I also think (again, as others have said), this was easy to forgive because the whole movie (up to and including the last act) was so beautifully shot.

 

By the way, I loved the staging off the club shootout not because of the tail on display, but rather the positioning of the shooters. Cruise taking out motherfuckers from the ground on his back quickly turning from one to another was so satisfyingly badass. I also appreciated Cruise's last words, even if they were kind of twee in the way they echoed what he'd said earlier. I've never been a big fan of the guy, but this is now my favourite of his performances next to "Born on the Fourth of July". I would rank this movie with "Heat" as one of Mann's best, and I'm more excited than ever to see "The Insider" now.

The Insider... so good...

Statham was never cast in this. But he auditioned. Mann just happened to like him so he gave him that small role at the start. 

 

Also, this was one of Frank Darabont's last writing jobs (Uncredited) along with Indiana Jones. It was his idea to move it from New York to LA. 

It hasn't been mentioned here, so I don't know if anyone has heard of this (or if people have and they just don't believe it), but I read online that Statham's appearance was just a cute movie reference. Apparently he was supposed to be playing his character from "The Transporter". As for the much maligned (at least here) final confrontation, I found it a bit confusing, but I didn't really mind it. I wasn't sure how Foxx got the better of Cruise...I guess the idea was that his aim was off since he'd already been shot in the neck, was exhausted from running, and had to contend with the flickering train lights. I think that's semi-plausible.

 

I think the bigger question is why he didn't just shoot Pinkett-Smith when he had the chance. He clearly had a good few seconds to off her before Foxx showed up and pointed a gun at him, but he hesitated just long enough for Foxx to rush to the rescue. I thought those last scenes were so well directed to generate suspense, however, that the plausibility issues couldn't really bother me.

 

I never thought I could see the perpetually smug, smiling pretty boy Cruise as a seriously intimidating cold-blooded killer. To my amazement, he was pretty damn scary in that building chase scene. I loved the bit where he hacks the hell out of the power box with an axe. James, I'm not arguing with you, but I heard moving the movie to L.A. was Mann's idea since L.A. is kind of his thing/preferred location for modern stories  (i.e. "Heat", "Miami Vice"). You could be right, though (I have no way of confirming which story is more accurate).

 

If you get a chance, watch some of his more serious work like Born On The Fourth Of July, Rain Man ... even Minority Report to some extent. One of Cruise's defining traits has often been that almost unhinged intensity that makes him a scary proposition in Collateral. He actually hasn't been as perpetually smug as you might've thought.

I actually have seen those movies you mentioned and while I agree he showed a lot more intensity in those roles than in the more flaky roles I was referring to (i.e. "Top Gun"), I still think he was a revelation in "Collateral". I did appreciate those other performances very much, especially "Born on the Fourth of July", which broke my heart possibly more than any other movie ever has. I think "Born on the Fourth of July" had his best performance and he should have won the best actor Oscar for it.

 

I guess I'm just used to him playing characters that are just sort of laughable douchebags, even in "Rain Man", "Eyes Wide Shut", "Vanilla Sky", and "Jerry Maguire", which had some very nice more sentimental acting from him. I was really caught off-guard by how convincingly dangerous he was in "Collateral". Even in his more serious action-oriented roles like "Minority Report", "The Last Samurai", and "Mission Impossible", I've always had some trouble taking him seriously as a threat...I always see too much of the self-satisfied, blustering Tom Cruise movie star persona coming through. This was his first role since "Born on the Fourth of July" where I thought he really effectively buried himself in the part.