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HBO's Game of Thrones - Page 3

post #101 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
I feel that they could pretty much throw out everything that happens plotwise and just go nuts with the characters and the world thats been set up. Some characters live that shouldn't and vice versa. They're doing that with True Blood, and apparently it's working.
You're right, t's annoying to hear people say that Martin isn't afraid to kill off his characters. With one notable exception (Spoiler: in the first book, a big part of the reason I think they were able to get Sean Bean to commit), that's been my biggest criticism of the books (yea, I can get by the clunky prose and everything else). Characters that have no business living miraculously defy the odds. This isn't really a spoiler: Martin kills off one important character in the entire series, that's it, despite several more being prime candidates for a dirt nap, and so that makes him ballsy? This is just one of the ways an HBO series can diverge from the novels and improve on the story.
post #102 of 2289
The original plan was for there to be a five-year gap before A Feast for Crows, which Martin subsequently ditched, which caused huge delays because he'd already written a good chunk of material based on that gap. Then Crows got so long he had to cut it in half, and seemingly shuffled all the stuff with the characters people gave a damn about to the next book, A Dance with Dragons, which seemingly will be finished around the same time we get Duke Nukem Forever.

Martin is a free writer and not much of a planner, and so has a tendency to write stuff than contradicts material he's previously written. Which requires him to go back and re-write previous parts of the book. Which often requires he re-write the stuff that forced him to go back and re-write in the first place. Couple this with his football obsession and his seeming inability to say no to a convention appearance, and it's no wonder he can't finish the damn book.
post #103 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDog View Post
You're right, t's annoying to hear people say that Martin isn't afraid to kill off his characters. With one notable exception (Spoiler: in the first book, a big part of the reason I think they were able to get Sean Bean to commit), that's been my biggest criticism of the books (yea, I can get by the clunky prose and everything else).
Hey, doesn't Rob or Joffrey or Catelyn (yeah, I know she's some kind of zombie now) or Tywin Lannister count?
post #104 of 2289
Now we're getting into spoiliery discussions so I'll answer this without any blackouts. The first 2 characters you mentioned arent' POV characters, and so aren't "important" characters, and are actually (predictably) expendable. The 3rd character you mentioned illustrates my point, as she should have absolutely died but the way which she was brought back was ridiculous.
post #105 of 2289
and I forgot to mention, you're 4th example is a good one. But again, that isn't a POV character and also a character that while great is predictably expendable.
post #106 of 2289
I disagree that the importance of the character hinges on its being a POV character. The simple fact that you're reading about their behavior and actions through other characters' eyes makes them no less important. And what makes one character more expendable than another? I'd say that all of the major players are equally expendable. The only question is what Martin chooses to do with them.
post #107 of 2289
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Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
I disagree that the importance of the character hinges on its being a POV character. The simple fact that you're reading about their behavior and actions through other characters' eyes makes them no less important. And what makes one character more expendable than another? I'd say that all of the major players are equally expendable. The only question is what Martin chooses to do with them.
I disagree. The story is told from the Point of View of a very few POV characters. We get to be very privy to their thoughts. If one of the POV characters die we feel it more than when one of the non-POV dies.
post #108 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
I feel that they could pretty much throw out everything that happens plotwise and just go nuts with the characters and the world thats been set up. Some characters live that shouldn't and vice versa. They're doing that with True Blood, and apparently it's working.
Same with Dexter.
post #109 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by GDog View Post
I disagree. The story is told from the Point of View of a very few POV characters. We get to be very privy to their thoughts. If one of the POV characters die we feel it more than when one of the non-POV dies.
I don't disagree with this statement. Obviously, we're going to empathize far more with a POV character than with a non-POV character because we're walking that mile in their shoes. That's different from importance, however. "Importance", at least to me, is defined by how much the character drives the narrative forward. To that extent, Rob, having been declared King of the North, is incredibly important until he meets his bloody demise. Hell, the fallout from that demise is catastrophic.
post #110 of 2289
I can't believe this is going to be an HBO show. FUCK YES. Even one pilot. Can't believe it's gotten this far.
post #111 of 2289
I'm going to have to be a bit of a Martin apologist here (and excuse the ranting). I can understand a little impatience, but I just can't understand the flat-out venom towards Martin for not writing faster. I mean, we've been talking about the unfortunate possibility of his demise for how many years now? This just tells me that the books are so entertaining that the idea of not getting the full allotment is driving some readers mad. So, if we like/love the series for its intricate plotting, etc, shouldn't we be a little more understanding towards the undoubtedly difficult process of keeping it all in line?

I know some have criticized Martin for his blog postings and his football veiwership, but do we really believe that 3-6 hours of football a week for 5 months out of the year, and a couple hours (maybe) of posting on his website weekly are really what's delaying the next book? Can the man not have a little bit of a life outside of writing? And can he make a little money?

Anyway, I disagree that Martin hasn't killed off "important" characters, and I agree that being a POV character isn't a requisite for being important/critical to the story. Also, Martin's prose certainly isn't spectacular. But, I'm not demanding Faulkner or Eliot-like prose in my epic fantasy (though I'm definitely not against any author who could pull it off). However, I'm certainly weary of writers who just won't get to the point because they want to wax incessantly on the way the sun breaks over the dew-covered fields, blah, blah, blah. I think Martin's style is serviceable at worst. And that doesn't mean the books aren't entertaining to read. Dan Brown is the worst writer, prose-wise, this side of the Times Bestseller list, but damn if his stories aren't constructed and paced well enough that I find it hard to put them down. And Martin is leagues ahead of Brown in the prose department.

Here's to hoping that the television show is a success. Bean is great casting and I look forward to seeing what Addy brings to the role of Robert.
post #112 of 2289
I thought the anger for the delay of the series was that this book that he's working on now that's taken him like five years was supposed to be the second half of a book that was completed five years ago.
post #113 of 2289
And he took a good bit of time to write A Feast for Crows, which a lot of people found disappointing. So that, combined with the lengthy period of time it's taking to finish the next book, makes it seem like he's lost the thread of the story.
post #114 of 2289
Martin is alive which is all that can be said in his favor at this point.
post #115 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
And he took a good bit of time to write A Feast for Crows, which a lot of people found disappointing. So that, combined with the lengthy period of time it's taking to finish the next book, makes it seem like he's lost the thread of the story.
But have you seen those knight figurines?
post #116 of 2289
No, I was too busy ordering water-damaged copies of the Game of Thrones role-playing game for fifty bucks a piece.

And yes, he actual sold water-damaged copies of the role-playing game for fifty bucks. Sure it was out of print, but fifty bucks for damaged goods?
post #117 of 2289
I didn't realize he was so hard up for cash. Maybe he should try selling an obnoxiously overpriced new fucking novel.
post #118 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post
I didn't realize he was so hard up for cash. Maybe he should try selling an obnoxiously overpriced new fucking novel.
I'd guess writing a book dips into nacho time more than digging some shit out of the shed out back.
post #119 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post
I thought the anger for the delay of the series was that this book that he's working on now that's taken him like five years was supposed to be the second half of a book that was completed five years ago.
The way that I read it was that he began book 4 with a 5 year time jump in the series, but eventually realized that he would have to skip too many seemingly important events to really pull that off satisfactorily. I suspect then that Feast for Crows was basically written after the first part of what will be Dance with Dragons, and AFfC is part of the stuff that Martin was going to skip in the 5 year gap.

So, it appears that he was writing a book, then realized he had to stop, write another book, then finish the one he was originally working on. I think many believe that it took Martin the whole time to write what turned out to be Feast for Crows, while I think he wrote that and had a significant amount of Dance for Dragons done. Now he has to go back, revise, and finish Dragons based on what he did in Feast for Crows. The decision to try a 5 year time gap may well have turned out to be a bad one based on the delay in the series and the anger it's caused, but you win some, you lose some.

I don't disagree with those that were a little disappointed with Feast for Crows. At the same time, I don't think it was ever going to be as thick with plot as the previosu 3 as it came at the end of the war. And like some have speculated, I think he was moving pieces into position for the next phase of the story which seems to be getting into the overarching mythology a little more. I think the story needed a little breathing room and a little time to catch up with some of the players before getting back into chaos.
post #120 of 2289
Feast for Crows felt like half a novel. Like, literally, half the storyline and characters (including most of my faves) had been removed.

As I understand it, that's pretty much what it was.
post #121 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
Feast for Crows felt like half a novel. Like, literally, half the storyline and characters (including most of my faves) had been removed.

As I understand it, that's pretty much what it was.
Yeah... that was how I read the scenario as well. I was looking forward to Dance with Dragons specifically because his individual story lines interweave so well. Stuff in DwW would complement AFfC and vice versa. I didn't hate Feast as much as some others, but I thought Dance would actually improve it.
post #122 of 2289
I love how everyone here has a giant hate-on for the series and thinks Martin is going to die ... but reads his blog every day.

BTW: The main problem seems to be surrounding parking Dani in Meereen. It was perfectly fine when there was a five year gap, the next novel would start as she was ready to leave to come to Westeros. As it is, he needs her to stick around for at least a little bit to make her not seem like a total flake. Reading between the lines of his blog it seems as if he has pretty much everything done except for the last couple chapters getting her out of the city, which he's been working and reworking since 2005.
post #123 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
I love how everyone here has a giant hate-on for the series and thinks Martin is going to die ... but reads his blog every day.
Everyone? I love the series, Feast for Crows suffers mostly in comparison, and I await the next book with great anticipation. And yeah ... I've met him in person, and he doesn't look too healthy.
post #124 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
Everyone? I love the series, Feast for Crows suffers mostly in comparison, and I await the next book with great anticipation. And yeah ... I've met him in person, and he doesn't look too healthy.
I've actually met him in person too. "Weezy" would be the adjective I'd use. And of course there was the whole series of blog posts about his pizza tour where he went from pizza shop to pizza shop to find the best and greasiest deep-dish.
post #125 of 2289
Feast for Crows did seem like half a novel if you look at it in terms of the number of POVs and the specific POVs he included. But, many of the ones left out are of characters outside of Westeros proper - at/beyond the wall, the summer isles, the old continent, etc. This seems like an unorthodox, but reasonable choice to me. Whether it was the right choice...we'll see.
post #126 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Feast for Crows did seem like half a novel if you look at it in terms of the number of POVs and the specific POVs he included. But, many of the ones left out are of characters outside of Westeros proper - at/beyond the wall, the summer isles, the old continent, etc. This seems like an unorthodox, but reasonable choice to me. Whether it was the right choice...we'll see.
It isn't really a secret that Feast for Crows was half a novel. He says so in the note on the last page.
post #127 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaz View Post
It isn't really a secret that Feast for Crows was half a novel. He says so in the note on the last page.
I'm arguing less about whether the book feels "incomplete" and more about whether that was a necessary choice given the complex nature of the plot at that point, and his previous attempt to skip a few years. I certainly noticed the lack of previously vital POVs, but I felt the ones present in Feast weren't necessarily filler. If Feast is indeed half a book, then we should assume that Dance will be the other half. But somehow I don't think it'll be criticized as such because of the presence of favored characters. I just think Feast is heaped on because of which fan faves are/aren't present, not necessarily because of the advancement/lack thereof of plot.
post #128 of 2289
Feast was half a book. Nothing about complexity... he said flat out the book was too damn long.
post #129 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I'm arguing less about whether the book feels "incomplete" and more about whether that was a necessary choice given the complex nature of the plot at that point, and his previous attempt to skip a few years. I certainly noticed the lack of previously vital POVs, but I felt the ones present in Feast weren't necessarily filler. If Feast is indeed half a book, then we should assume that Dance will be the other half. But somehow I don't think it'll be criticized as such because of the presence of favored characters. I just think Feast is heaped on because of which fan faves are/aren't present, not necessarily because of the advancement/lack thereof of plot.
No, Feast is heaped on because its crap. And worse, its sloppy crap. I love the series and was saddened by how Feast showed the slow and steady descent Martin made into RobertJordanItis. I have no issue with someone loving football and food in addition to being a writer. I do have an issue when someone loses focus, turns out crap, and then pretends it has nothing to do with their extracurricular activities. The best thing to come out of Feast's failure is it moved me to so pick up books from some other fantasy writers that I think are now on par with, or very close to on par with, Martin (Lynch, Erickson, Bakker, etc.).
post #130 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
No, Feast is heaped on because its crap. And worse, its sloppy crap. I love the series and was saddened by how Feast showed the slow and steady descent Martin made into RobertJordanItis. I have no issue with someone loving football and food in addition to being a writer. I do have an issue when someone loses focus, turns out crap, and then pretends it has nothing to do with their extracurricular activities. The best thing to come out of Feast's failure is it moved me to so pick up books from some other fantasy writers that I think are now on par with, or very close to on par with, Martin (Lynch, Erickson, Bakker, etc.).
Damn, you'd think Martin killed your dog or something.

Feast is my least favorite of the four. I just don't think it's terrible, and I also think that the story became the issue, not extra curriculars or necessarily a lack of focus on writing. I think he's trying to organize what became quite a monster. That means having to put off half his characters for a book because it was becoming monstrously large. Despite the complaints regarding the length of time it's taking to finish the next book, I think the extra time will actually allow him to get the plot straight in his mind. I hope.

RobertJordanItis. Ouch.
post #131 of 2289
For all the excuses you can make for it, Feast pretty much ended the series for me, whereas before it I'd step up to defend these books. 1000 pages of nothing interesting will kill about any series. I don't care what Martin does in his free time, just as I don't really care if the fifth book ever comes out or not. Feast was wheel-spinning from an author no longer interested in writing these books, and if that's the case, I'm not too interested in reading them.
post #132 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
For all the excuses you can make for it, Feast pretty much ended the series for me, whereas before it I'd step up to defend these books. 1000 pages of nothing interesting will kill about any series. I don't care what Martin does in his free time, just as I don't really care if the fifth book ever comes out or not. Feast was wheel-spinning from an author no longer interested in writing these books, and if that's the case, I'm not too interested in reading them.
You're really done with the series? Did you have any issues with aspects of Storm of Swords or the previous two, or was it solely Feast? It may turn out that the rest of the series is crap, but at this point I can't be as certain as you seem to be. I'm hoping that the trudgery is done with and he can get back to what I imagine was fun for him to write initially. I wonder if the looming series will inspire/light a fire under his ass.
post #133 of 2289
I'm certainly not rushing out to pick it up. It seems like everyone I know reads these, and after it's been out a while and I hear what people think, I might read it. If they say it's Feast of Crows-ish, then yeah, I'm out.

I liked Storm of Swords, because it was so kill-happy, but at the same time, it became clear while reading it, there was no 'ending' for all this. I suppose it could all conclude at some point, with a big war against the Others and a new King or Queen taking power, but that supposed finale is clearly several books away. And even though I don't much care what Martin does with his personal time, the fact that he seems to have so little grip on Book 5 suggests it's not working out very well. We know from Feast it's not quality control holding it back.

It could just be that I'm not much of a fantasy fan. I should be, because I'm a dork, but I just can't engage in it like I can a Horror novel, or even a SciFi. Song of Ice and Fire beat the long odds by me getting this far into it, so I'll give it credit there. But there's literally hundreds of books I'd love to read, and if 1000 pages isn't great, it's a real pain in the ass.
post #134 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
...I also think that the story became the issue, not extra curriculars or necessarily a lack of focus on writing. I think he's trying to organize what became quite a monster. That means having to put off half his characters for a book because it was becoming monstrously large....
You just reinforced my point. When the story becomes crap everything else just falls apart. Interesting characters (and I said interesting so FUCK YOU BRIANNE!) can only carry a book so far when the overall story begins to fail. And the fact that this became a monster shows where Martin fails. Not as a writer per se, but as a writer who can control these massive fantasy worlds. I think Martin bit off more than he could chew and now we're seeing the negative impact. I hope Dance of Dragons knocks my socks off and puts things back on track. But I sure as hell am not holding my breathe for that to happen. And honestly, if the show becomes even a moderate success you can bet your ass that the next book will take 12 years to finish. I've got a feeling mainstream success/fame would make Martin so supernova.
post #135 of 2289
It feels like ol' George was trying to out Jordan Robert Jordan with the last book. PACE OF A GLACIER, GO!

That said, I like these books and am glad HBO is turning them into a series.
post #136 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
You just reinforced my point. When the story becomes crap everything else just falls apart.
I wasn't implying the story was crap, I was implying the story was the problem in that it became too large and unwieldy. And because the story became too large, Martin's original (well, not really since he originally hoped for 3 books) conception of 6, and possibly 7 books, has fallen apart. He's either got to expand that, or he's got to pare down the story big time.

I imagine the character POVs in Feast will ultimately serve some purpose, or he would have just skipped them and gone directly to whatever he has planned for Dance. Feast was indeed slow as shit, but that doesn't bother me as much as some people. I think the pace would have been less of a problem if the book had come out a year or two after Storm, but the long gap between the two, followed by a slow book just put people off.

The greatest criticism I can level at Martin at this point is that his tendency to free write wasn't well suited to the ambition he had for this story.

I hope the show is successful, and if so that Martin can be as hands off as possible. If his time is consumed in part by the show, I can see another 3-5 year gap between books. That might certainly turn me off to the series.
post #137 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
Interesting characters (and I said interesting so FUCK YOU BRIANNE!)
Hahaha! Very good.
post #138 of 2289
Doesn't Brienne have enough going against her with the horse face, unrequited love, dead siblings, mannish build, poor social skills, accusation of murder, and possible death by hanging? Ok, maybe not.
post #139 of 2289
*hands tissue out to those crying for the book*

I've been waiting 12 years for the sequel to The Mageborn Traitor. Rawn still hasn't started work on that novel.
post #140 of 2289
I'm crying because you're actually waiting for a Melody Rawn book.
post #141 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I'm crying because you're actually waiting for a Melody Rawn book.
Melanie Rawn is still writing? I remember the sunrunner series vaguely from junior high.
post #142 of 2289
I was with this series through Storm of Swords (though didn't start reading any of them until SoS was published, so that helped) and read the first three books twice. After waiting and pre-ordering FoC and all that, I was pretty disappointed in it, but held out hope that the problems were, "It's only half a novel!" and would be resolved in Dance of Dragons.

But the long wait has pretty much killed my interest in the series, and since everyone has already figured out at least one of the major final twists, and can see pretty much how the series will end, I'm not really interested in the books at all anymore. I can see myself picking them up and reading them once the next few come out, but I don't check on GRRM's website or give much thought to the books anymore.
post #143 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagoda View Post
But the long wait has pretty much killed my interest in the series, and since everyone has already figured out at least one of the major final twists, and can see pretty much how the series will end,.
What? Is it: How Daenerys will come back with her dragons, take the throne (because everyone is tired of the civil war anyway), and save the day against the Others?

Yeah, if it's that it's pretty easy to guess. The only thing I really liked in the last book was more Jaime Lannister. That's it.

This shit is dragging like a fucker.
post #144 of 2289
Another problem: I forget most of the side characters, and I'm not rereading these books so I know which House has the Flayed Man standard. If I do come back to the series, the appendices will have to save me.
post #145 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Doesn't Brienne have enough going against her with the horse face, unrequited love, dead siblings, mannish build, poor social skills, accusation of murder, and possible death by hanging? Ok, maybe not.
Don't forget she had half her face chewed off!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
What? Is it: How Daenerys will come back with her dragons, take the throne (because everyone is tired of the civil war anyway), and save the day against the Others?
I think he's talking about the idea that Jon Snow is really Ryegar's son, not Ned's, which has been telegraphed from the first book.
post #146 of 2289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
Another problem: I forget most of the side characters, and I'm not rereading these books so I know which House has the Flayed Man standard. If I do come back to the series, the appendices will have to save me.
Hell, I'll just go to Wikipedia and read the summaries there.
post #147 of 2289
Yeah, I dont understand why he is still working on the book if he supposedly had a giant book that he just needed to cut in half. I checked out his website the other day and he was proud of himself for finishing 3 chapters recently.
post #148 of 2289
It wasn't quite that simple. When he chopped the book in half, he had to edit the first half so that it worked as a single volume. That, naturally, changed things enough that it affected events in the second book.

Martin is the worst kind of writer for a multi-book series. He doesn't seem to plan things out very far in advance. I'm sure he's got an overall structure, an eventual ending he'd like to get to, but he hasn't hashed out how to get to that point. He's just wandering along until he gets to it. So if a whim strikes him and the story goes off in an odd direction, it forces him to go back and change things. Which may force him to go and change things after the derail he's also already written. It really seems like an undisciplined approach that might be fine for a stand-alone work that's not following off a cliffhanger, but not for the fourth and fifth books in a series.
post #149 of 2289
I'm lucky in that I've only read the first two books, so my enthusiasm for the series is probably at a peak. But I'm wondering if there'll be any pressure from the producers of the series to start cranking out the books a little faster.

Even if there isn't, though, as mentioned above, I'm sure the TV show can manage without Martin. Honestly, based on everything I hear about this guy and the decline of the series, I'm actually thinking the TV show will end up being superior to the books.
post #150 of 2289
By the way, according to this blog post at Time Magazine, the series will be called "A Game of Thrones", not "A Song of Ice and Fire".
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