Big Auto loses an Ally

That is so awesome.

Well, at least they are doing something. I hope to hear more things like this over the next few years.

This is change we need. (sorry, but it's a good thing!)
I just want to know if this was a move made by the president-elect or not.

It is quotes like this that make it almost impossible for me to rationally follow national politics for any length of time without becoming apoplectically mad and turning to strong drink.

Yippee skippy. I like this Waxman fellow, I get the impression he's pretty damned impatient with Republicans and their ballyhoo.

The Moustache of Justice FTW!!! This is actually very good news for the human race, and all species under the sun, pretty much.

In terms of Big Auto, I'm for bailing out the companies but firing senior management. Throw the bums out. And put in reorganizers who can get in there and start the long overdue progression to hybrids.

Yeah, the hybrids. That's what's the destroying the auto industry, not having enough hybrids.

Yeah and the "new management" will magically fix everything since they're ... erm ... new and all.

How about we don't bail them out at all in the first place. Let them try to figure out a way out of this mess, like the rest of the galaxy.

They had the auto show in L.A. this week, and while all the other foreign car compaies were showing true innovation, the Detroit Three barely showed up except with their same old same old. We could have been 15 years ahead of the curve.

I'll light a cigarette to the burning of the Big Three as they spectacularly fail. the oil companies broke them, let the oil companies bail them out.

double edge sword, you let the big three fail, thousands of people lose their jobs. You bail them out and you are only encouraging their bad style of management and lack of innovation.

You have to do a combination. Help them out, but keep track of what they are doing. They just gave all the banks that money with no accountability on the parts of the bank. If they are going to do it again, don't be stupid and do it the same way. The problem is that asking the congress not to be stupid is like asking water not to be wet. It will not happen.

Make sure that the auto people use it to help get themselves out of the shit, not just for fun. Fine, get rid of some of the management, but keep people around who know what they're doing. Senators and congressmen don't know what they're doing in this industry either.

A blanket wave of the hand to say "develop alternative energy cars" isn't going to solve the problem either.

well, the good thing is that the last time the automakers received large amounts of government money, they did pay it back.

I know a bailout is not an optimal solution, but what is? Would you rather have well over a million jobs disappear and billions in pensions get taken over by the government?

No, even if the auto industry produced more hybrids at the current stage in the economy, it still would be little.

People simply cannot afford new cars at the moment. Also, in my area, for example, there are no electric/hydrogen charging stations for miles. In fact, I lived in four different places the last six years (two major cities, one in Midwest and one in East Coast) and the only electric charging station I ever saw was during a visit to Las Vegas (even then I was told it was the one of the only ones in that area.)

My father sells cars for a foreign car company that produces hybrids. He hasn't sold one. The infrastructure for the new technology must be placed down before the technology could actually be used. People would be crazy to drive tens or even hundreds of miles out of the way just to recharge or refuel green technology when they can go two blocks and fill up their already fuel efficient car with gasoline.

Hybrids aren't hydrogen powered, and you don't need charging stations for them. They're electric, and self-charging. If one isn't, than it's a silly design and shouldn't sell anyway.

This is a more stinging comment about your father's salesmanship than it is about hybrid cars. Anecdotes aren't data.

Recent sales figures.

April is recent?

Of course you should look at data in the current context, that's the whole point. April data here is pretty irrelevant, also you can't ignore current gas prices.

Nice try. Also, he doesn't work for Toyota, which sells the most hybrids out of all those listed. You cannot use national car sales numbers to compare with local numbers. It's like comparing national polls with state polls.

Auto dealerships are not the same. Some dealerships do not carry cars that others do. The fact is that hybrid cars might be popular in many parts of the country, but it's mostly in cities and large population areas. You can't sell hydrogen or electric cars in many areas because the infrastructure is not there. Charging stations must exist in similar or slightly smaller numbers to gas stations. Many cars are self-charging, but many cars need charging stations to charge on the fly.

They will be keeping track of the money. The big three have until December 20th to lay out a detailed plan that specify exactly how an eventual bailout package will be put to use. If this plan is accepted they'll get their money!

I love that taxpayers who have specifically rejected Big Three products are going to end up paying for them anyway. And by "love," I mean "strongly hate."

To anyone saying we can't bail them out, I have this to say to you: you can't be serious.

We're on the verge of another possible Great Depression and you want to add millions more to the ranks of the unemployed? Guess how much a bailout will have saved compared to the unemployment and healthcare taxpayers will take on when these people are forced from their jobs?

And ElCap, yeah, new management. Where I work, this level of feet-dragging as the world passes you by ends up with a fast, unceremonious dumping.

Also, don't forget: there's a lot of culpability to go around between the management of the big three, Big Oil and the enabling politicians who coddle Big Oil.

The workers are the last ones who should have to pay for their crimes against humanity.

What good is it to have workers building something that no one will buy? How many six-fingered gloves are there in the world?

That's the only reason why I favor a bailout, but 25 Billion is only a temporary bandaid...not a cure. People aren't going to suddenly go 'hey, they got 25 billion, let's go buy a car'. Until they fundamentally change their business structure, they will continue to bleed money until the next bailout.

Most auto industry experts that I've seen discussing this on television or reading through print have said that the labor unions constant hassling of the car manufacturers along with the big 3's horrible business model have led to this.

The UAW and their workers are not innocent here.

You somehow managed to find one of the very, very few segments of the working population who are actually innocents in an industry disaster. 99 out of a 100, your sweeping assertion would be correct.

"Crimes against humanity"? Geez.

Being a filthy liberal, I still must acknowledge the truth of this. If the Big Three are going to have to change with the times, so must the unions. Just because you can powerscrew in a rivet with some skill doesn't make you the backbone of the economy.

... as they longingly gaze across the globe at China, where manufacturers don't have to worry about such matters.

Keep telling yourself that. The UAW and their workers work for Honda, Nissan, BMW etc as well.

When your daughters are adults, they'll understand what I'm talking about.

What is this rush to demonize auto workers and unions? I am completely gobsmacked by this. Because, you know, we as individuals have such a high probability of influencing big corporations on our own. Remember the good old days when there were no unions?

So what does that mean, am I being opressed by my employer because I don't belong to a union?

Are non-union Toyota workers being abused?

I'm not demonizing anything. But you have to be realistic. The unionized worker is going to have to take a hit. Maybe not in pay, but certainly in benefits. So will the bigwig auto company owners, so will the stockholders. EVERYONE will have to get less.

That's a strawman. You can have unions that don't pressure companies. The UAW pressures GM, Ford, and Chrysler to pay their workers waaaaay too much money. Just check out those stats on the previous page. Many car salesmen make a third of that, which is outrageous.

The unions killed my area because they forced the steel mills to continue to pay the millworkers exorbitant amounts of money despite the mill crumbling because of the economy or skyrocketing prices.

The UAW here along with other unions practice legal extortion on companies to the point where they collapse and then their workers blame the company for collapsing not the union for making compromises in order to save their jobs.

I don't think the UAW or other unions know what's worse: taking a benefit or pay cut or losing your job entire.

Sadly, the few industries who truly need unions to protect workers, by and large don't have any.

The UAW pretty much gives all unions a bad name by being one of the most ruthless, non-cooperative "business" entities in the U.S. A cursory review of their negotiation strategies over the last few decades makes that an easy conclusion. They forgot that if the business their members work for fail year after year, eventually there won't be anything to fight over.

Who said anything about local numbers vs national? You said hybrids don't sell because your dad doesn't sell any. One salesman's numbers are not much of a reference.

You seem to be confusing hydrogen, electric, and hybrid cars. None of this has anything to do with your claim that hybrids don't sell, though.

I did. You can't use national sales numbers to show how hybrids have been selling. The state and city numbers work better. However, when you look at them, hybrid cars are selling in only urban areas in the West or the very large cities in the East. If hybrid cars started selling rapidly in suburban or rural areas, then I'd say we would have a hybrid boom. A shitload of hybrid cars selling in Los Angeles doesn't mean shit unless you live in LA.

I'm not confusing the cars at all. I was discussing electric and hydrogen powered cars in my first post. Hybrids got introduced somehow and I responded in turn.

Fixed. If auto manufacturers actually started mass-producing affordable fuel-cell and straight electric cars, the fueling infrastructure would sort itself out. It's not like gas stations were all over the country when Ford started cranking out Model-Ts.

Well, Hybrids aren't very practical cars, honestly. The cost vs. savings just isn't there unless you're getting tax credits.

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Tell that to my brother who's currently getting over 800 km on a single tank. He will have made back the difference in price he paid by the time the car's warranty is up.

There was a short period a few years ago that US companies seemed to be catching up to the rest of the world but regretfully they themselves bought into this whole SUV hysteria that caught everyone over there. So now instead of having to just cut back in order to survive they night have to shut down outright. But again, amateurish and incompetent as they were they are sadly to big to fail. Maybe if the damage could be contained to one of the 3 it won't be a disaster. But a massive failure will irrevocably destroy the social fabric in a lot of places. Detroit is going to look like Portland next to what some of the places dependant on the auto industry will look like.

Great, 800km on a single tank.. still isn't practical as for cost.

Figure it out for yourself.

miles per week x 52 divided by your hybrids average MPG (we'll use the prius in this example) x average price of gas (not current prices, they're dirt cheap, say $4 a gallon for this example)

250 x 52 = 13,000 / 50 (prius) = 260 x $4.00 = $1040 per year
250 x 52 = 13,000 / 30 (civic) = 434 x $4.00 = $1734 per year (rouding up)

Difference = $694 per year.

Cost of Civic $19,000 (decent model)
Cost of Prius $26,000 (decent model)

$7,000 difference

It would take you 10 years to recoup the savings difference between a Civic and a Prius. That's also not taking into account the cost of replacement parts, after so many years you have to replace the batteries on the Prius (I think 6?) and they're not cheap like car batteries. I believe (someone feel free to correct me on this) they're a couple of thousand dollars.

Now feel free to apply this model to any hybrid out there to a comparable model car or SUV to determine if it is cost effective for you.. I've yet to find a hybrid that is worth the cost difference. \


The Volt however looks like it will be worth it, 100+ MPG + 40 miles on a charge without using gas. That's also why the 2010 Prius sounds appealing, you can plug it in and it gets closer to 60 MPG and they're lowering the price.