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Something Interesting Happens in Canada

post #1 of 80
Thread Starter 
Our government may crumble in a couple days. Hopefully, it does; conservatives are leading us, though in a minority. Harper and his cronies are trying to remove public funding from the opposition's coffers to run elections. Naturally, being a conservative party, they are able to rely on private funds, unlike the other parties, as they are the most subservient to the corporations. If this bill is passed, any party hoping to survive would be even further in conservative interests; basically, the party hopes to gut everyone else. But with the rest of the parties forced to regroup and form a possible coalition government, I can only see better things happening, as they must reach some consensus and compromise amongst themselves.

Fuck Stephen Harper. Arrogant bastard.
post #2 of 80
I just started an internship at CBC this week, and today my job was to go out and get 'streeters', basically ask people on the street what they thought about the Conservatives power play. The best person I talked to by far was the beggar outside of Tim Horton's. Seriously, while most people hadn't even heard about this, this guy had it down cold. He was actually supportive of the mini-budget. I disagreed with him, but at least he had the facts to back up his opinion.

I'm amazed at how suprised the conservatives seem to be by the other parties reaction. What the fuck did they think the reaction would be? Seems like an odd move by Harper, who usually doesn't mess up like this when it comes to pitting other parties against each other. I'm betting the conservatives back off, but we'll see. Either, way I'll probably have to do streeters again on Monday. I hope my guy at Timmy's is still there.
post #3 of 80
They did back off, after the Liberals and the Bloc discussed a vote of non-confidence. Harper cancelled work to prevent it from being tabled, but he can't cancel work forever.

And I'm all for a vote of non-confidence, but I most emphatically do not like what comes next:

Quote:
Unless the prime minister backs down, the government will be defeated, the opposition will form a pact, they will go to the Governor General and they will say that rather than call an election, the Liberals should be given an opportunity to win the confidence of the House of Commons," Fife said.
"Rather than call an election"? I can't imagine what argument they could make to the GG. Even if they have a whiz-bang of an economic plan I'd sort of like them to not stage a coup.

And do you know why they don't want to have an election? Because they'd lose. The Cons aren't especially popular, but they're too popular to lose. Still, I'd like to see them hobbled by a vote of non-confidence. Harper's just awful.
post #4 of 80
I resent that thread title. Who lives in Canada? MEEEEEE! That makes it the most interesting place ever.

Also, fuck Stephen Harper. I sure didn't vote for him.
post #5 of 80
watching the Conservatives dance on this one is kind of fun...mostly as they honestly believe it would have flown under the radar.
post #6 of 80
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...ion-talks.html

Quote:
Liberals, NDP, Bloc sign deal on proposed coalition

'We must try to make this Parliament work,' Dion says of accord
Last Updated: Monday, December 1, 2008 | 8:32 PM ET
CBC News

The Liberals and New Democrats signed an agreement on Monday to form an unprecedented coalition government, with a written pledge of support from the Bloc Québécois, if they are successful in ousting the minority Conservative government in a coming confidence vote.

The accord between parties led by Stéphane Dion, Jack Layton and Gilles Duceppe came just hours after Liberal caucus members agreed unanimously that Dion would stay on to lead the Liberal-NDP coalition, with support in the House of Commons from Bloc MPs.

The six-point accord includes a description of the role of the Liberal and NDP caucuses, which would meet separately and sit next to each other on the government benches in the House of Commons, Dion told a news conference alongside Layton and Duceppe.

Dion said he has advised Gov. Gen. Michaëlle Jean in a letter that he has the confidence of the Commons to form the government should Stephen Harper's Conservatives be defeated in a confidence vote.

The Liberal leader said the parties reached the accord after watching the "sad spectacle" of other countries' governments acting to counter the "unprecedented" global economic crisis while Harper's Conservatives "sat and did nothing."

"Given the critical situation facing our fellow citizens and the refusal and inability of the Harper government to deal with this critical situation, the opposition parties have decided that it was now time to take action," he said.

"We are ready to form a new government that will address the best interests of the people instead of plunging Canadians into another election."

Dion, who previously announced he would step down as Liberal leader, also pledged he would hand over "a strong government for a stronger Canada" to his Liberal successor on May 2.

"I am honoured to do that," Dion said.

Layton said the accord's proposed multibillion-dollar stimulus package for the troubled economy, which includes support for the auto and forestry sectors, is "prompt, prudent, competent and, most important, effective."

"This Parliament has failed to act, and it falls on us to act," Layton said.

The NDP leader also called on the prime minister to "accept this gracefully" and not bring further instability by fighting the verdict of his colleagues in the House.

"Prime minister, your government has lost the confidence of the House and it is going to be defeated at the earliest opportunity," he said.

Following the opposition news conference, Harper dispatched Environment Minister Jim Prentice to address the "serious" situation.

Prentice called the opposition pact "irresponsible and undemocratic" and said the government will consider all options.

He wouldn't rule out the government's asking Jean to suspend Parliament until late in January, when the Tories have promised to introduce a new budget.

The proposed coalition cabinet will comprise 24 ministers and the prime minister. Six of these ministers will be appointed from within the NDP caucus. The position of finance minister would be held by a Liberal, while the NDP would be allotted six parliamentary secretaries.

The accord between the NDP and Liberals will expire on June 30, 2011, unless it is renewed. The Bloc is only committed to 18 months.

It includes a "policy accord" to address the "present economic crisis," which states that the accord "is built on a foundation of fiscal responsibility."

An economic stimulus package will be the new government's top priority, while other policies include a commitment to improve child benefits and childcare "as finances permit."

There is also a commitment to "pursue a North American cap-and-trade market" to limit carbon emissions.

Accord 'in the best interests of Quebec': Duceppe

The Bloc would not officially be a part of the coalition, but the new government's survival would depend on its support.

Duceppe said his party entered into an agreement that is "in the best interests of Quebec, of Quebecers during this time of economic difficulties."

"We chose for the time being to give priority to the economic situation and to the assistance we must provide to people," he said.

He added he did not agree to support the coalition beyond the 2011 date because the various parties could not agree on "concrete action to recognize the Quebec nation."

Parliament is due to vote on a Liberal no-confidence motion on Dec. 8. If Harper's government were to lose a confidence vote, Dion would request that Jean approve the proposed plan to form a coalition government.

But the Governor General, who is currently on a state visit in Europe, could also decide to send Canadians to the polls for a second time in less than two months. The prime minister could also still block coalition efforts by proroguing Parliament — that is, suspending it without dissolving it.

Dion has support from Liberal leadership candidates

Dion, who has been blamed by some for the Liberals' poor showing in the October election, had agreed to step down as party leader in May.

However, in the hour-long meeting on Monday, Dion received support from all three Liberal MPs vying to replace him, Michael Ignatieff, Bob Rae and Dominic LeBlanc, the CBC's Susan Bonner reported from outside the House of Commons.

The three leadership candidates emerged from the meeting together and told reporters they agreed to Dion's presence, but insisted the campaign to replace him will continue "in the normal fashion."

Ignatieff, who is the front-runner to succeed Dion in an upcoming leadership convention, said the three candidates were "at one" in their belief that "the only leader who can lead us in this context is the duly elected leader of the Liberal party."

"I support the accord because it's fiscally responsible, it provides responsible economic leadership in tough times and it also conserves the basic principles of national unity, equality that our party has always believed in," he said.

Rae described the caucus meeting as "historic" and "moving," while also saying the deal was "perfectly constitutional" and would present for Canadians "the very best possible government."

The opposition parties say they have lost confidence in the Harper government after last Thursday's economic update by Finance Minister Jim Flaherty failed to provide a stimulus package for Canadians. Since then, the Liberals had been in negotiations to form a coalition with the NDP, planning to oust the Conservatives in a confidence vote.

During question period in the House of Commons on Monday, Dion challenged Harper to allow his government to face a vote.

"Does the prime minister still believe that he enjoys the confidence of this House?" Dion asked.

A fiery Harper, in turn, accused Dion of "playing the biggest political game in Canadian history," saying the Liberal leader would recklessly attempt to govern the country amid a global economic crisis under threat of veto by "socialists and separatists."

Dion reminded the House that in 2004, in a letter to the Governor General, Harper — then-opposition leader — proposed that he be allowed to form a government if Paul Martin's Liberal minority government were to fall.

NDP would hold 25% of cabinet spots

Earlier Monday, former NDP leader Ed Broadbent, who took part in the talks, told reporters that "a very constructive, positive agreement has been reached between the Liberal Party of Canada and the New Democratic Party that will bring stimulus to the economy, which is badly needed."

"There are going to be a lot of jobs, a protection of pensions and I think we can look forward to a very constructive period," he told reporters, saying the deal included aid for the suffering auto and forestry sectors.

The Canadian Press reported a source saying mid-Monday that the parties had agreed to present a $30-billion stimulus package that would offer substantial aid to the troubled auto and forestry industries.

The source said the deal also calls for the formation of an economic advisory panel of experts that would include Paul Martin, John Manley, Frank McKenna and Roy Romanow.

Details of the agreement were fleshed out Sunday night.

PM 'has no one to blame but himself: Rae

If the prime minister moved to prorogue Parliament, the Conservative government could not be defeated in the current session of the House. But Harper would also need the approval of the Governor General to do that.
But Rae said a move to prorogue would lack legitimacy, as it would clearly be to avoid a vote of confidence.

"Mr. Harper has no one to blame but himself for the fact that he's not been able to gain the confidence of the majority of the House," he told the CBC's senior parliamentary editor, Don Newman.

On Sunday, Flaherty said the government would deliver the budget on Jan. 27, about a month before one would normally be tabled in the House.

Shortly after Flaherty's announcement, Transport Minister John Baird said the minority government wouldn't try to eliminate federal civil servants' right to strike over the next couple of years, as pledged in last week's economic update.

On Saturday, Baird also announced the government had shelved its contentious plan to eliminate political party subsidies that are based on the number of votes received during elections.
post #7 of 80
Why the fuck are people calling this a coup? Coalition government is nothing new, and it worked before. And it's still better than fucking Harper. He got what he deserved.

Now, my mind is still reeling from the thought of Stephane Dion as Prime Minister. Wow.
post #8 of 80
Well if Dion took the post he wouldn't be there long. He is stepping down from the Liberal leadership, nothing will prevent that now, and if this does happen, do you think the Liberal Party would move up their leadership vote? Or will we have like a Kim Campbell thing where Dion is PM for a few months?
post #9 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brendan View Post
Well if Dion took the post he wouldn't be there long. He is stepping down from the Liberal leadership, nothing will prevent that now, and if this does happen, do you think the Liberal Party would move up their leadership vote? Or will we have like a Kim Campbell thing where Dion is PM for a few months?
Yet he rallied the Liberals behind him...because of Bob Rae. Rae still wants the seat, and thus still opposes Ignatieff. If not, Ignatieff would have been crowned by now that would have been the end of it. Now, I'm guessing Dion will stay. I'm still shocked. I would rather have seen Layton, but heh....
post #10 of 80
What a mess.

So you guys could have these clowns switch prime ministers every other month if they wanted to, without elections?
post #11 of 80
Coming from a country whose electoral process and bi-party system is the definition of messy and antiquated, I'd hardly qualify this as "a mess". It's just the sort of political moves you've never seen in North America.
post #12 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Coming from a country whose electoral process and bi-party system is the definition of messy and antiquated, I'd hardly qualify this as "a mess". It's just the sort of political moves you've never seen in North America.
Have fun with your sixteen parties on Bizarro World, pal. I'll take my mess.
post #13 of 80
I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which the Republican party, the Libertarians and the Alaskan separatist party decide to take kick out Obama's administration (if he didn't win a clear majority of course).
post #14 of 80
A bi-party system is condemned to stagnation.
post #15 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which the Republican party, the Libertarians and the Alaskan separatist party decide to take kick out Obama's administration (if he didn't win a clear majority of course).
The Libreral and NDP have 44% of the votes. More than the Conservative. That's it. If they decide to form a coalition, this is it. And honestly, Harper deserves it. Wanting to cut the funding of opposition parties was as undemocratic as it comes.
post #16 of 80
Slippery slope.

Well, at least we're not Italy...yet.
post #17 of 80
Italian politics are the complete opposite of US politics.
post #18 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
A bi-party system is condemned to stagnation.
While a multi-party system can fall into congestion.
post #19 of 80
Yeah. The best is dictatorship, really. Or Monarchy, but only appointed by God.
post #20 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Italian politics are the complete opposite of US politics.
Sorry. When I say 'we' I mean 'you and I as Canadians'.

I work for the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) in Atlanta. I'm still a Canadian citizen, and thus taxpayer.
post #21 of 80
Your new rulers:



Beer all around!
post #22 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Rocco View Post
Sorry. When I say 'we' I mean 'you and I as Canadians'.

I work for the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade (DFAIT) in Atlanta. I'm still a Canadian citizen, and thus taxpayer.
Still, Italian and US politics are complete opposites. And oddly enough, comparable.
At both sides of the spectrum, yet completely stuck in status quo.
post #23 of 80
Wow, if another election is forced I can see there being a big mixture of voter anger and voter apathy. But still, it's probably anyone's guess who that would all end up being aimed at.
post #24 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
What a mess.

So you guys could have these clowns switch prime ministers every other month if they wanted to, without elections?
We don't elect a PM anyway, we elect a House of Commons. If the PM cannot hold the confidence of the Commons, the Commons can replace him.
post #25 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
Your new rulers:



Beer all around!
Huzzah! Now that's a Prime Minister I can get behind
post #26 of 80
When are you going to change your flag to this:




By the way, and for the record: I fucking LOVE Canada; it's full of great people and great fishing. Any place that can spawn the pure awesomeness that is Rush can really do no wrong.
post #27 of 80
Really? So you're a big fan of forced sterilization of Natives too? Well who'da thunk it?
post #28 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun View Post
Really? So you're a big fan of forced sterilization of Natives too? Well who'da thunk it?
Do we have a problem that I'm unaware of?
post #29 of 80
That was kinda odd, Seabass. Like, really weird.
post #30 of 80
I think Seabass is either referring to the Alberta Eugenics Board, which operated under the Alberta Sterilization Act for something like 50 years and disproportionately targeted natives or the eugenics program in British Columbia. Both programs were active as recently as the early 1970s. But my grasp of Canadian history is shoddy at best. But in either case, the point is that if Judas Booth believes Canada can do no wrong, and Canada enacted a eugenics program, then it's safe to assume Judas thinks the practice of eugenics isn't wrong. Not that hard to understand.
post #31 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
Do we have a problem that I'm unaware of?
Oh! No, it wasn't a dig at you, it was a dig at Canada. It wasn't long ago that forced sterilization was national policy, and that's pretty wrong.
post #32 of 80
Canada has its share of ugly history, no question about it.
post #33 of 80
I was unaware of this sterilization/eugenics program; of course I would not support such a thing. The 'Well, who'da thunk it' in Seabass' comment towards me made it sound like a sarcastic dig in my direction - as if I'd made statements in the past that indicated that I supported such a thing.

He explained it, so the air is clear. We're cool, and I still love Canada.
post #34 of 80
When you think Canada, you immediately think "eugenics". It's just the way it is.
post #35 of 80
When I think of Canada I think of Alpha Flight and Moose.
post #36 of 80
And that annoying as fuck show Degrassi.

But seriously, I have heard about the forced relocation of indians off the reservation and put into humilating conversion schools. Something very similar to what the aussies did to the aboriginies.
post #37 of 80
We club baby seals, too.

Personally I think the club is too humane.
post #38 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
I was unaware of this sterilization/eugenics program; of course I would not support such a thing. The 'Well, who'da thunk it' in Seabass' comment towards me made it sound like a sarcastic dig in my direction - as if I'd made statements in the past that indicated that I supported such a thing.

He explained it, so the air is clear. We're cool, and I still love Canada.
Sorry for the confusion.

Anyway, these have suddenly become interesting times, and I don't like it. I don't like the Harper Conservatives very much at all, but I think the coalition will be too busy trying to coalesce to govern properly.
post #39 of 80
Thread Starter 
I'm at an odd position. If there actually is another election, I'd almost vote Conservative - because their more traditional way of operating free-market capitalism will sooner hasten their demise and that of consumerism and capitalism, at least as we know it today; while the coalition would truly be staying with the status quo, even though the Conservatives are trying to as well, at which I'm sure they'll fail at doing. No option looks particularly good to me. Everybody looks like an ass. The more I've thought about this, the greater a clusterfuck it becomes. Are the liberals/bloc/NDP being more 'left or 'right' by giving the corporations our money? We need a clearer political lens to see through than left/right.
post #40 of 80
I've been reading and mulling over what seems to be "best":

1. Harper & Flaherty resign
2. Conservatives pick a "moderate" like Jim Prentice as leader
3. The new Con leader cleans house at the PMO
3. The Cons adopt (most of) the proposed plan of the coalition in exchange for a year of stability.

I think this is a win win since:
a) The party with the greatest number of seats retains power
b) The two idiots who precipitated this mess get theirs
c) The three idiots who are trying to make things worse get put back in place
d) It absolutely kills the bizarre and ignorant debate that's raging in the media
e) The Governor General isn't placed in the middle of a Constitutional Crisis (TM)

Still looking for the badness in this plan ...
post #41 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunwukong View Post
3. The Cons adopt (most of) the proposed plan of the coalition in exchange for a year of stability.
The Frog and the Scorpion.
post #42 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Rocco View Post
The Frog and the Scorpion.
Considering how much turmoil it would create in the Con party to dump a leader (and his staff) and appoint/elect a new one in less than a month and half, they'd need some incentive not to cling to Harper like grim death.
post #43 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunwukong View Post
they'd need some incentive not to cling to Harper like grim death.
So, that's what that smell around Harper is...

My problem with the whole thing is how wrong the conservative pundits are about the whole thing. They keep claiming it's a usurping of power or (and I heard this today in Calgary) treason. Holy shit people, do you not understand that we're a parliamentary democracy? We do not elect a PM, we elect the HoC. They decide who leads the country, not us.

I hate this back door bullshit but Harper can't be surprised that people got pissed when he and Flaherty decided to try and destroy the other parties through the budget.
post #44 of 80
What's hilarious is that Harper proposed the exact same coalition back in 2000 and 2004 with the Bloc. TWICE.

And Dion's message ROCKED!.....
post #45 of 80
Harper is meeting with the Governor General. I hope she doesn't grant proragation before meeting with Dion and Layton. I have a feeling those two guys can sweet talk her into it. Giving Harer what he wants now would be saying that anytime a Prime Minister in a minority is about to fall he can call a time out, even if it's only a few weeks after an election, and during a recession.

The coalition must have a chance.

Edit at 11:39 eastern.

Apparently, prorogation has been granted. Without the Governer General meeting with the proposed Coalition. Democracy in Canada has a new precedent. Now there will be a giant barrage of ads instead of doing something for the economy. Canada, despite everyone's best wishes, sucks just as much as America before that whole Obama miracle happened.
post #46 of 80
Frank magazine pulled the plug just a few weeks too early.
post #47 of 80
Well, that's it. See you around January 26th... Way to go, especially while we have an economic crisis...

EDIT: On another note, I love the fact that the typical tactic of the Reform, demonizing your enemy, is proof that they're not a unifying Canadian government. Many of the Quebecois voting for the Bloc aren't separatists, but he sure wants to paint, and at some point make them that way. Bravo you moron.
post #48 of 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAncient View Post
Harper is meeting with the Governor General. I hope she doesn't grant proragation before meeting with Dion and Layton. I have a feeling those two guys can sweet talk her into it. Giving Harer what he wants now would be saying that anytime a Prime Minister in a minority is about to fall he can call a time out, even if it's only a few weeks after an election, and during a recession.

The coalition must have a chance.

Edit at 11:39 eastern.

Apparently, prorogation has been granted. Without the Governer General meeting with the proposed Coalition. Democracy in Canada has a new precedent. Now there will be a giant barrage of ads instead of doing something for the economy. Canada, despite everyone's best wishes, sucks just as much as America before that whole Obama miracle happened.
No. There's no 'School of the Canadas', we don't invade countries under false pretenses and torture the prisoners we take, we don't overthrow legitimately elected governments because their policies drive fruit prices down, and we don't have a health care system that abandons patients mid-treatment because there's no profit in it.

Trends usually take six to ten years to fully move north. Patience.
post #49 of 80
Did you see Dion's TV appearance? He was completely out of focus, whilst the books on the shelf behind him were crystal clear. I gotta say that he seemed to talk more sense than Harper did last night who switched between begging and scare-tactics.

Personally, (as an NDP supporter) I say go for the coalition, Harper needs to go, give the coalition a chance, if it doesn't work out we go to the polls again (in a year or so) and there could be a stronger mandate for whoever comes out on top.

Economic instability breeds political instability, having the liberals tempered with NDP in a few key ministries could really make a difference.

Dion is still planning on stepping down in a few months, I don't know who would replace him but having Jack Layton as deputy PM is a great choice, I would have him as PM in a second.

By the way, for the record, I'm not a Canadian but one of the billion ex-pat Brits out here.
post #50 of 80
Can't wait to see his appearance on YouTube.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNew...03?hub=QPeriod

Quote:
The Liberals have apologized for Liberal Leader Stephane Dion's taped televised address, after it was delivered to Canadian networks almost an hour past deadline and in near-cellphone quality.

"I apologize for what happened tonight. I apologize for the poor quality and the lateness. I am livid and am doing an investigation as to how this happened," Johanne Senecal, Dion's Chief of Staff, said to CTV News tonight.
Is this guy always a disaster when he shows up on TV?
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