So, there goes Detroit and US Manufacturing...

It's news like this that makes me glad I'm not gonna have cable or Internet access for over a week. Everyday, the news brings the razor closer and closer to my wrists.

Wait, this is still the lame duck Congress. Let's not start placing all of the blame on the Dems. That said, they have to figure out a strategy--any strategy to break planned Republican filibusters.

For example, the current auto bailout opposition is a result of self-interest as much as ideology. Is it a surprise that the Senators most opposed to the bailout happen to have non-union auto plants in their state?

US manufacturing and the auto industry in general won't disappear completely. It will be a rough patch, but in the long run they will restructure themselves or a new company or industry will take it's place.

The big three were holding an unloaded gun to the country's head, threatening a meltdown that will cost millions of jobs. If they received the money that they were looking for now do you really think that these dickheads would have a change of heart and start producing green cars in the U.S?

It's a scare tactic. They'll survive the next month and the sky isn't falling any worse than it already was.

If anything this puts the new congress and President Obama in a decent position to actually push through a bailout that works. Giving up money that is supposed to be spent on retooling plants to produce energy efficient, practical cars here to feed into the current business model is just bad policy.

I'm glad they killed it. This was bullshit and probably would have made things worse down the road.
If the government is giving loans, spread it out to smaller businesses that need it just as much. That's a lot less risky than dropping your whole wad on an industry that's proven it can't manage itself.

So wait, you're blaming this on the Republicans and not the UAW?

Boy do they (the Unions) need to burden their share of the blame. I think a Union that protects workers, makes sure that somebody has safe working conditions and a fair wage for a fair days work is commendable. But the current incarnation of trying to get as much money and benefits for as little work possible has crippled manufacturing.

Unions (in their current form) are the antithesis to productivity. And until they are retooled we will be unable to compete in the global market.

Unfortunately, Bush is planning on working with the Treasury to (probably) take the funds out of TARP.

Seriously, let them (and the UAW) fail and then, I don't know, maybe restructure so that you are actually effecient?

And anyone who thinks them filing for bankruptcy will destroy a million jobs and send the economy into a depression seriously needs to have their head examined. Or at least understand the basics of how a bankruptcy works.

Cosigns.

Exactly and they testified before both the house and the Senate over the last two hearings that they were prepared to make sacrifices and they wanted to do anything to make this work... when push came to shove they balked.

Either they know something that we don't (that everything will be OK? or there is enough to last until after Obama is in office?) or they don't care...

I'm betting on the first one, since GM has changed their tune several times on when they'd run out of money.

Well, my wife didn't get home until midnight because of this mess.

In short, the entire thing failed because a basic element of Corker's plan could not be agreed to by the UAW.

The plan required the UAW to agree to a date at which they would set their salaries equal to (or close enough) to what the US auto workers made building cars for Toyota, Honda, etc. Admittedly, that's a 25-30% drop. But it's going to happen with or without firings, and they chose to make it happen WITH firings. Considering how much the overseas automakers are killing the US, you'd think that might be an easy concession. The non-UAW auto works do pretty well for themselves. But the consumer isn't going to pay a premium for UAW-built cars.

Anyways, pride and hubris all around. But I think the UAW is going to pay the highest price. Or at least their least "tenured' workers will.

I'm betting heavy that the TARP funds are used by the end of next week at the latest. It's even possible it'll happen today. The industry needs a major, top-to-bottom overhaul, though.

I think the unions need to rethink their role in the auto industry. They need to find ways of increasing competition and innovation without destroying wages and benefits. But there's way too much politically-motivated scapegoating with the UAW for my tastes.

Part of the issue to me (and I work in one of those tangentially related auto fields) is that GM has way too many fucking makes and models and not enough resources to properly market and sell them. If they sold more cars with less of an overhead, then they would be more solvent. Ford doesn't need the money apparently, and I think part of the reason why is their product catalog is manageable.

I'm wondering if, God forbid, the TARP funds are used then a stipulation would be that the UAW essentially becomes a government union.

If so, hopefully the UAW will find a way to eventually go the route of the PATCO in 1981 if they don't agree to some significant form of overhaul.

Do you think that we'll be looking at the abandonment of some of the GM auto lines before this is all over with? If so, which ones do you think will be dropped? Chevrolet should be safe, but I'd have to think that Saturn and Hummer are on the possible chopping block.

I don't entirely blame the UAW. I think it's sad that those in charge don't want to admit the obvious...nobody wants to buy American cars. Period.

They already are, on average, $2,500 less per vehicle than their Asian counterparts.

Them "going green" won't make a bit of difference either as other manufacturers are two steps ahead of them on that already.

Let them go into bankruptcy and redesign their entire business model from there.

Donde, the people who are about to retire should receive what they have been promised during their career. The younger union workers need to be given a reality check and learn to start planning for their own retirements. The days of 95% comp pensions are over.

I work in the transportation industry. 60% of the product we deliver is auto related. My dad, grandfather and many other people I know are auto/union guys (I live in Toledo, OH). Even they realize that the Union has become a bastard version of what it's supposed to be, but at the same time realize that the bad business decisions of these organizations top management teams are chiefly to blame.

I've always thought the problem with American cars is that they're designed for people who don't exist any longer. Back in the 1950s when there was a lot less diversity in design, you were fine if you produced a car for the "average american". But, GM's legion of shapeless, uninspired cars don't have a market any longer.

By comparison, look at Ford. They're still in awful shape, but with the Fusion and the Edge, they've started to create a car that someone out there would be proud to drive. Compare that to the vast majority of Chevy's line, and you can see the difference. I mean, when the Malibu, which is fine looking but makes no statement whatsoever, if the highlight of your line, you have a major problem.

I loves me my Grand Cherokee though.

I drive a CTS (last generation), and it's an awesome car, but the interior design is a joke for a car that costs as much as it does. Still, I'm damn fond of it.

Interior design of vehicles is where the Big Three really, really lag behind. Compare the interior of a mid-range GM with the interior of a mid-range foreign car, and the difference is striking.

The interior of an American car looks like it was designed by accident. Like they threw buttons onto the console and placed them where they stuck.

I'm honestly shocked that this didn't pass. Why did they need 60 votes? Was it to close debate and move for a vote? Couldn't they just move straight to a vote, since the final tally was 52-38, or would that have triggered a Republican filibuster of the bill?

I'm sorry, but this is a load of shit.

- when did the GOP question Wall Street on what the financial service industry workers were making?

- when did anyone question Shelby on the kind of corporate welfare, to the tune of billions of dollars, that he handed to Mercedes and other foreign, non-union car manufacturers - whose employees on average make more than UAW workers - in Alabama?

This is union busting by Senate republicans at the expense of millions of jobs and total disruption at a shaky time in the US economy.

Anyone who smugly believes that the GOP is "right" to hold up this bridge loan to the Big 3 is dreaming. I drove American cars for years until I finally gave in and started buying toyotas (I've been in a Prius for the last 6 years), but that was never the fault of auto workers. That was ALWAYS the responsibility of the cabal between the auto industry MANAGEMENT, the oil industry (did you know that GM sold the patent on its EV1 car battery to CHEVRON, who has been sitting on it? Yeah, that's the fault of the workers, right?) and their enablers in government.

I am disgusted by these Congressmen and hope the media wakes the &^%$ up and exposes them for their craven union-busting at American plants to favor their non-union foreign car manufacturers in-state.

ps. sales are down on ALL car manufacturers generally thanks to the malfeasance on Wall Street and frozen credit market + joblessness.

The UAW gives unions a bad name.

They're going to be "busted" on way or another. Either by automakers bankruptcy reorganization, automakers going out of business entirely, government intervention, or, preferably, by their own hand when they realize how dire the straits are. Can they not see the handwriting on the wall?

You might have better luck praying to Jesus for a winged unicorn and a Sword of Fire as opposed to hoping the media acts responsibly.

I'm really not aware of the specifics but I really find it hard to believe that American autoworkers have it so much better than their German counterparts for example, that their benefits led to their companies' doom. The unions probably bear a part of the burden but responsibility rests with the moronic management almost completely.

More importantly, they don't really have it any better than the employees at the Honda plants in the U.S., who don't have a union.

It's not the compensation of active workers that's out of whack. It's the compensation of inactive (i.e., they don't want them to work) and retired workers that's the real problem.

For once, Cheney sounds sensible (I can't believe I'm typing this):
And for all of you vilifying the UAW, every f*&^%ng benefit you take for granted is there because of unions. I personally know a couple of people who wouldn't have voted for Obama if it hadn't been for their unions. The UAW already has given concessions in spite of what the liars on TV will tell you.

And will one of you please answer my question, did you get this indignant about what the toadies robbing America blind from their cushy offices on Wall Street make for a living? Do you think they get $20/hour or $40/hour or even the mystical, fake number of $70/hour? They would laugh in your face if you asked that. Yet where was the anger among Congressional Republicans for those "workers"? Please.

I want to shadow Stelios post here. I can see your point Overlord and it sounds valid. But I guess it is to easy to squarely blame the union(s?) for this result. It has been their job to negotiate the best they can do for their members. And apparently they succeeded beyond reasonable expectations. Nonetheless somebody on the side of the manufacturers must have made this bargain. It should have been obvious that this is negligent and horrible deal in terms of macro economics already decades ago.

And another thing: This crisis is affecting far more than "just" the US automobile industry. In the age of globalization there is nowhere near an independence of the different brands. Look at the Opel AG in Germany. A sound brand, albeit some troubles, they are on the verge of going bankrupt now since they are closely intertwined with GM. But that might be an obvious and hence moot point.

There's plenty of blame to go around, but in terms of how to handle retired/unecessary workers, the UAW has to accept its fair share. There came a point in which the UAW failed to see the forest for the trees: if you kill the entire forest, there won't be any trees left to worry about.

Unions today went from protecting the employees from abusive employers to being the abusers. That's it. It's a business, and the UAW are the king of them all. It doesn't change what they did, but what they do now is worthy of the shit they get.

Why is a decent wage and decent quality of life seen as such a lead balloon? Isn't that what Teddy Roosevelt talked about being the right of every American? I swear to God, it's OK for these a$$holes on Wall Street to line up their yachts and jets at the well of public financing, but everyone gets all offended when people who actually managed to get a piece of the American dream through hard work and collective bargaining happen to get in the way during a massive corporate and government failure.

Yt, first of all you know I respect your opinion quite a bit. Yes, I think that the upper tier of wage earners in top management (CEO's, CFO's, COO's) are paid way too much in proportion to the average worker. You know I also think that the Neocons have let the free market run amok, and this is a partial result of that. Too much money in too few hands.

However, the Unions do have a portion of culpability when it comes to the state of manufacturing. A lot of this has to do with pensions, but it also has to do with imposing policies that run counter to productivity, all in the name of "securing jobs".

You cannot have three men to operate a piece of machinery, each with their designated task and not allow them to be cross functional.

To use an example: a line breaks down because a piece has worn out. Two of the three men are currently working while the third is on a designated break. Because the employee on break is the only person who is designated to fix the problem the line goes idle until he returns slowing down production for other lines in the process. Now, the two men who are present could easily fix the problem, but in order to "secure the job" they are not allowed.

How do policies like this make sense?

I have to ask you a question: do you really think that the bailout money is going to find it's way back into the hands of the American auto workers? Do you think that this will soften the hearts of the grinchy CEO's and they'll decide that American jobs are more important than profit?

Something needs to be done, without a doubt. But we need to do something that ensures the long term health of our industrial sector.

/rambling post.

**I have a neighbor that works for the Chrysler Jeep plant as a forklift operator. He works about 2 hours of an 8 hour shift and is paid 38.50/hour.

Precisely. My post was not about playing the blame game. Fuck ups have been plenty on all sides. Though this threads seems to steer more often than not into this territory. And some post related to the recession have been clearly biased and tainted with hostilities against unions as such. Not pointing out somebody specific though.

I am not American nor do I have any personal stakes in this issue: But I still want to state loud and clear that unions have a purpose and are more than necessary to balance the powers between corporations and workers. The rules of the game might be in need of tweaking but using this apocalypse of one of the most important branches of industry to get rid of unions as a side product is unacceptable, anti-social and plain irresponsible.

ETA: And dwelling in this righteous debate about "But the CEO´s still have their assets and planes! The workers are raped!" might have some appeal. But it is utter pointless and steers away from the real issues at hand. It is an issue that needs to be tackled for sure but it is a mere piece of the puzzle.

Everyone agrees with this. People are just saying that this particular union acted stupidly. I'm not knowledgeable enough on the subject to be sure if that's true, but it certainly can be, without meaning anything is wrong about unions in general or the laws governing them.

Agreed that unions are an absolute necessity. But, like all things, we need a balance. And, speaking as someone from a town that was damn near killed by a poor balance between Unions and Management (Pittsburgh), it's important to realize that we all benefit most from a proper balance of power.

All due respect to you, and I see your point too, but let's break this down for a minute.

Look at the failure of the Big 3. Look at what they're asking for and why they need it.

Does that have anything at all to do with the worker? You know that parts and labor only account for 60% of a car's cost? Guess where the other 40% goes? Why aren't those of us in the working or middle class in this forum focusing on that? Why is it suddenly ok to blame workers for something that has f#%-all to do with them?

If there are problems with union deals, then work within or from without to fix them. But the slave-owner mentality is alive and well. Slave-owners know that individual workers have ZERO rights and ZERO weight at the bargaining table, but that power goes up dramatically when they band together, actually providing somewhat of a challenge, however small, to the slave-owner. That's why the rich and powerful in this country, and the CEOs and shareholders, want rid of unions. They don't believe that working class people or middle class people should have any collective power. They believe that power belongs in the hands of the powerful.

I'm just asking everyone to look at the root of this specific problem and then try to make a logical argument for attacking unions as the cause. They had nothing to do with this; they have given concessions to keep their jobs; and they're being totally unfairly thrown under a bus by people like Shelby who have been looking for ways to get rid of unions all together.

Yeah, I'm not exactly articulate about this either, but i'm very very pissed off about this and I think the GOP had better tread carefully right now because they are letting their true colors and their true aims become a little too uncharacteristically visible.

I sure hope so. I am neither knowledgeable enough to give definite judgment about this situation. But some posts in recent weeks by Snaikie and The Closer (Sorry guys for singleing you out like this. Nothing personal and I might very well be wrong with my assumption) gave me the impression I stated above. But it seems I am in good company with my argument.

I'll guess!

Overhead.
Accounting.
Marketing.
Distribution.
Sales Incentives.

Sure, of all those things you listed, of course leaving off the MAIN drain - executive compensation - which ones are as important to this country, as healthy for the economy, as labor wages? Maybe distribution.

Also, Rachel Maddow made an excellent point on this:

Do you have stats on this? Rick Wagoner makes 8.5 million a year, which isn't particularly impressive for a CEO of his stature. Also, I've seen what Ford pays many of their executives. It's not even close to the main drains on those corporations.

If anything, the biggest problems that the companies have is that the Marshall Plan put our physical plant 40-odd years behind the Japanese to begin with, combined with utterly massive pension plans.

I'll have to find it, but the figure I read was: labor=10%, parts=50%

How about management decision making? You don't think that set US car manufacturers back? Why do you think they've been pushing trucks and SUVs for the past 20 yrs? They cost the same to build, but make many times the profit of small cars. No regard for consumer demand, emissions, or anything else.

They don't need the money because they sold off 3 divisions before the credit crunch and also secured lines of credit last year because their sales were shit, in preparation for hard times. Land Rover and Jaguar are no longer part of Ford's portfolio and to stay solvent they're thinking of selling Volvo (if they haven't already, been busy the last few weeks and haven't been paying attention).

The problem GM has is they don't have enough lucrative divisions they can sell off... Buick??? Mercury??? Hummer??? No deals. Chrysler is in a similar boat, they've already trimmed a lot of fat when they broke off from Dialmer(sp).

Slave owners?

I work for a big corporation, and I don't belong to a union (nor would I want to) and I don't consider myself to have ZERO rights or be a slave. I work here because I want to, and I get paid well.

Do you think the Toyota workers are abused slaves? The Toyota workers seem to do pretty well, and geez, they work for a successful company. The reality is, these 3 corporations are not owed any money. They are not in a good position to negotiate, and since this is our money we have every right to complain about all and any aspects of how they run their operations.

Well you hinted the biggest drain is executive compensation, so what is that percentage?

Congratulations.

Not everyone is so lucky.