Greece

Here's a video from the happening: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PK9lpMk7fiY

In case you're wondering, that was our prime minister doing his best Mussolini impression. The black banner held by the protesters reads "Stop watching, get out on the streets". Which is kinda awesome.

And here's some background info:

For the past week-and-a-half, Greece has been hit by riots. The riots were the result of a police officer shooting and killing an unarmed teenager in downtown Athens. During the first few days, groups of youths, mostly anarchists burned down banks and looted stores in Athens and other major cities. As the violence died down, students started protesting the murder and asking for a better future.

Here's the background to the background: Being young in Greece ain't easy. The unemployment rate among young people is significant and -to make matters worse- doesn't discriminate between college graduates and high school dropouts.

Even if you get a job, you are not guaranteed earning more than 700 euros (about $1000), even if you have a university degree or two. As a result, Greeks still live with their parents when they are pushing thirty (yes, even if they don't like Star Trek) and don't feel like they have much to look forward to.

Although wages are much lower in Greece than they are in the rest of Western Europe, the prices of consumer goods are the same -and even higher- in Athens than in Berlin or Paris!

At the same time, a political system that favours customer-client relations between government officials and their constituencies is very much still in place.

To make matters worse, the current conservative government, which rose to power promising a better economy, reforms and less corruption has failed in a spectacular manner to make these promises come true. Marred by scandals, it has again and again failed to bring down the cost of living, improve the economy and handle major crises, such as the recent riots or last year's deadly wildfires.

Add the worldwide recession to this explosive mixture and... you get the picture.

How's any of that different than any other Western country? The only real difference is that the Greek youth are doing what Americans are too apathetic to do.

I don't know what you people are doing down in Kentucky, but that sounds far, far worse than my life/salary/job prospects. Now, granted, the last two do leave something to be desired, but I certainly didn't have to live with my parents until I was 30.

Thank you for providing a local's perspective on the situation, mastronikolas. I've been watching the coverage of the protests on the news. It's incredible, really.

The difference is that Americans still believe that hard work and a break is all they need to become millionaires. The problem with Greeks is that they no longer have hope they can rise above their current place in society.

By the way, the Greek youth has been accused of being apathetic and apolitical in more than one occasion. I would suggest you don't try to discover the Americans' breaking point.

I would say it is safe to say that Americans do not have it as bad as Greeks do, yet. give it a couple more years.


What other European states are in the same shape as Greece? I have always understood Europe to be worse of the then the USA economically speaking, which for me is kind of mind boggling. I have a feeling the next World war may be come to a Neighborhood corner soon, say with in the next 10 or 15 years. North America and Europe are fucked. India, China, and the Middle East will be fucked sooner or later for different reasons. It only a matter of time before both North America and Europe fall under dictatorships.

Well for what it is worth the Greek autonomous scene is infamous for their willingness for action and violence over here. The German left has been quite fond by Greek activists in recent times, most notably during the G8 summit last year.

I obviously can´t judge the internal situation in Greece but I would disagree with Andersons statement judging by the sheer numbers alone. Europe is still a very diverse continent on all levels, despite the efforts of the EU.

Again, I can only judge from a German perspective but this sounds like the definition of hyperbole sirene cries for me.

How do you came to that conclusion?

Both the US and many European country are in at the very least a recession, if not the beginning of a Depression. The governments may or may not be able to put a Band-aid on the economy. If they can then we will only be okay for the next 6 years. In 2015 Silicon will reach the limits of growth, so there goes another economic stimulant gone. So we will be right back to the bring of Depression and anarchy again. Depression and anarchy always lead to dictatorship. The USA of damn lucky back in the 1930s we came really close.

India, China, and the Middle East have other factors, that are just as worrying of not more so. First all three practices the sexing of fetuses. This is leading to an imbalance in their societies. Their economies are based on our economies. If we are having a depression they will be having a recession or worse. The Saudis say they need between 55 and 75 $US per Barrel to keep their economy afloat. They are most likely not getting 75 $ a barrel in the amounts they need to make a profit. People just can no longer afford oil at that price any more. Other OPIC countries need a higher price then Saudi Arabia. Also the higher the price of oil the worse the European and North American economies will be.

All in all the next 10 to 15 years will be a very bad time globally, and it could easily get worse. Read your history, look at the fall of Roman republic, the France revolution, and Europe in the 20s and 30s.

History is not set to necessarily repeat it self. Sure there is a recession on the horizon. But speculation about the end of growth of Silicon valley as the absolute reason for anarchy that is a bit thin. Hard to predict that stuff. And your President elect just announced the biggest stimulus package of more than half a century. Furthermore he nominated a nobel prize winner as secretary of energy(?). Seems like he is serious to tackle the most important growth and economy sector, energy and enviroment, with quite some long term vision. This might very well put Silicon valley to shame. American ingenuity and all that. And comparing the situations in the US and Europe (Or EU for that matter) is a bit two dimensional and thin. There are too many factors to only validate your doomsday scenario.

Sure, and that is exactly the reason why there are strong incidents that the "West" is going for more energy independence and the likes. See above. Which, if successful might even worsen the problems in these regions. But at the same time it might very well lead into movements of liberation and calls for freer societies. Or worsening their path into the middle ages. Apart from the fact that their economies are very different from our economies. But this is again speculation against doomsday.

All these three watersheds you named are vastly different and shaped the course of history for vastly different reasons. Apples and oranges and all that. And telling Germans about Europe in the 20s and 30s is not exactly breaking news. We had our fair share of disaster that resulted from this history.

The good thing about humans is the fact that they are able to adapt, learn and change behavior in the face of crisis. You don´t need Keanu Reeves to tell you that. While times are changing and most likely get tougher Doomsday is not right around the corner.

Oh, and "Read your history"? Be careful on that high horse. Falling can hurt.


ETA: Out of due respect to this thread: Maybe we should at least add some shaky analogies about Hellenistic Greece into this argument to stay remotely on topic.

In a weird turn of events I have to defend that guy here. Because this retarded statement you are referring to was made by some other guy in the Socialism thread.

But your point is valid nonetheless.

In the USA I would say we already have a recession, and we are heading toward a Depression, and a Depression lead to anarchy, I don't think I should have to tell a German that. I hope the US government can pull a miracle out of it ass and save us, I hope so. Silicon is not an absolute reason for anarchy, but it may be the straw that break the camel's back. It will push us farther into the hole, and may lead to a tipping point.

Your right I don't know how bad of Europe as a whole is, but doesn't Germany have the strongest economies in Europe? How strongly are you guys tied together? If enough counties head into trouble wont that drag others down too?


As a German you should understand how easy a fairly enlighten society can fall in to anarchy and then dictatorship. When people have it good they can be pretty civilized, but quickly take the good life away from them and then see what happens. Well I could be wrong I believe we are at an ending of the good times, what happens next probably wont be pretty.



I could bring up Greece, but the two major declines with in Greek civilization are not really apical at this time? To make what I have been saying more in line with this thread what been happing in Greece is just the first stage of a larger problem, that I believe will be spreading to other countries.

Too dreary louse;
What does livable income have to do with anything? I was not comparing the homelessness and poverty to that of America's. I was comparing things like unemployment and debt. I mean the European banking system may not be in as bad as shape as the US one, but it in pretty bad shape from what I been reading.

Oh, we are actually in a recession right now. Our BIP might actually decline about three percent in the next year. And we are apparently still the worlds third biggest economy. Thanks to the exporting industry.

The European internal market is as close as it can get for a union of 27 sovereign states as it can get I guess. So we are very intertwined. But the governments of the EU states are not really pushing a coherent strategy forward together right now. To allude Kissinger: "Europe does not have a telephone number." So there is that. But we are intertwined enough to stand together but fall alone.

So times are definitely not uplifting. There is every reason to worry. But I was taking issues at your alarmist and definite sounding statements in the first place. The probability of this worst case scenario should definitely not be discarded lightheartedly.

Nonetheless I think we are far from throwing up our hands and admitting defeat. The world has drasticly changed over the last fifty years and this historical analogies are not set in stone.


I don´t think that the situation during the "Weimar Republic" that lead to the downfall of Germany and the rise of the third Reich are even remotely comparable to the historical situation at hand right now. The specifics like the Versaille treaty, the completely different world politics as opposed to Globalization and the achievement of the EU are vastly different to make these analogies lightheartedly.

I brought that up to not derail this thread completely and not to discuss the historics of economic downfalls.

Sorry for painting that in broad strokes but it is bloody late here and it is rather difficult to formulate these complicated issues in another language for me right now. But I hope you get what I am trying to get across here.

Just had to pop in and say thats false.

Carry on.

So are they now trying to blind the cops?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/1..._n_151491.html

It's not hard to come by one powerful enough to manage that.

I'm a firm believer in that a little 'civil disobedience' is nessecary to put some fear into the government. But my cynical side says that there won't be any follow through to this. It was just a valve releasing steam because the pressure was too high. There is no actual force for political change behind this, sadly.

The government just wants to ride this out. The major opposition party just wants to use it to get rid of the government. The communist party wants nothing to do with it because they want to work exclusively with strikes and union led demonstrations. The rest of the left parties are sadly only good for soundbites as they seem to have no idea what their policies should be. And the far right, such as it is, is only interested in scaring up some 'law abiding citizen' votes. Even the anarchists are on the take, half of them as Police CIs funnily enough. Even the participation form the youth is more along the lines of 'I saw the lights on and thought I'd drop by' than anything ideologically backed.

The whole thing is just the same trivial bullshit as always, only with more molotov cocktails. Which is a fucking shame, because the problems are real, pressing and potentially catastophic.

Fox News is priceless. Next thing, they'll be reporting that protesters tried shooting proton torpedoes down an exhaust port.

No, they are keychains. Used in a smoky environment.

I'm far more concerned about the long-term effects of the several tons of tear gas unleashed on the protesters.

Those "laser attacks" are sadly common in football stadiums to irritate players.

But it is as dangerous as throwing bananas.

I wasn't saying pointing lasers at them was some type of crime against humanity, I was pretty much asking what was their intent. Some people think you can cause permanent eye damage (but they would have to stare at it for more than just 1/4 of a second), or are they using these to "point at targets" or what?

Not sure about the high concentration of tear gas, all I know is that a little bit hurts like hell. I did have a friend get a really bad reaction from it (vomiting, etc) back in the day, not sure if that was just him, the proximity or the quantity.

It's a highly concentrated beam of light called a "laser".

More photos, some really great stuff.

This thread reminded me why people were laughing at eenin in most politcal threads. And I' clearly picturing him as this guy:

Even more photos. A pretty well-rounded depiction of the events.