Obama | Homosexuals

I've heard about this. I understand what he's trying to do. Frankly the guy can't be all things to all people. So unless he had the scissor sisters do the morning whatever the hell is Warren is going to do. I doubt it would've gone well with anyone. And it's the freakin innagural. Let me know when an actual policy decision has been made that has relevance on anybody.

Once again, this "disappointment" with Obama is absolutely nonsense.

Pam Spaulding feels differently

Like I said, always something to complain about it. And what does it matter what orientation the person is? I want someone qualified. Who the fuck cares if they're straight? The hell does orientation have to do with anything? I'm all for diversity but at the end of the day I want capable/competent/qualified people at whatever the job is. I'm not gonna get into a bitch fit because Sectrary of Transportation isn't filled by a gay person.

Anyone who is aware that an individual possesses a genuine, western monotheistic religious conviction, and then expresses surprise when that individual harbors a bigoted homophobic belief, was deluding themselves.

It comes with the territory and is to be expected.

Because he hasn't done anything. He's not in office yet. The complaining and nitpicking gets incredibly extreme. I understand having critizism but the way some people are going after the guy.

I mean christ, the cabinate hasn't been confirmed yet.

I'm putting this thing in prospective. It's some guy doing the bullshit morning innagural prayer. The guy wasn't appointed into a position of public policy. I mean, some people act as if Pat Buchanan just got elected.

Could he have picked someone else? Sure. But this isn't really an issue of concern. There are times when it's best to calm the fuck down.

Don't blame me. I voted for Kodos.

Abortions, flags, etc.

Also, Joe Salmonese of the HRC's Op-Ed in the Washington Post.

Motherfuck Rick Warren.

That being said, engagement is always going to be more productive than isolation. The success of anti-gay rights legislation throughout the country speaks to the fact that, on a fundamental level, there is a huge contingent fundamentally opposed gay marriage. Personally, I think the state should only be involved in declaring and protecting civil unions, with marriage left to the individual churches.

But this is America, so this is going to get hashed out in the public realms of policy and culture. Warren has influence; if Obama simply turns his back on him, and tries to promote an equal-rights agenda through traditional (liberal) institutions, the deadlock will remain. The argument Obama's camp is making is legitimate, and the right one: if anything is going to change, that change will be predicated on engagement.

To that degree, I give Warren some credit. He knows Obama has positions that directly contravene his own, and he's still showing up. I think a lot of the hysteria that has developed over this thing points to the fact that it's going to do more good than harm; when you're pissing off the fringe, there will be some hope for movement. I thought the problem with Dubya's administration was that it didn't allow any room for opposing, or even contending, perspective.

The only thing this proves is that people bitch too much.

About everything.

...Huh.

hah, the neo-cons will stoop to nothing to discredit the messiah elect.

Good luck finding an american religious leader who is tolerant of other races, religions and sexual orientations.

Like I said, I understand the concern over this. But I highly doubt this was done out of ignorance. And my concern is actual legislation or attempts at it.

I'm getting really fucking sick of this "disappointment" pile-on on the President elect. What? You've found out he aint perfect? He's not the second coming? Not even the first-coming? He's human and a politician?

Shock fucking horror.

I love the fact that people think they have a legitimate beef in pointing out he's not perfect.

Seriously, what land of rainbows and fairies are some of these people living in? Either that or they can't wait to start criticising the guy and so are pusing bullshit barrows like this one.

Obama's got so many real and actual problems bordering on disasters he has to tackle, this manufactured nonsense smacks of a desperate attampt to sell newspapers.

Seriously, fuck off.

You know, I haven't followed the legal debate about gay marriage all that closely. Has there been a movement to get the government out of using the term "marriage" at all, and applying "civil union" to all couples for tax and bureaucracy purposes?

Rain Dog: You know who Rick Warren is, right?

He can't support gay marriage openly right away because of how many intolerant shit-heads this country has; he has to ease us into it. But like it's been said, with the amount of shit he has to deal with already...

It is hilarious though. My dad is blaming Obama for the current problems in our economy and the dude hasn't even been sworn in yet.

Not that it's a great excuse, but Syd's kind of right. Sadly, there's pretty much no way he could destroy his support in the black community, not to mention a lot of those white Union Dems, faster than openly supporting gay marriage.

I wonder now though; now that he's officially President, we CAN'T he just support gay marriage? So what if half the population hates him for it? What are they going to do? If there's anything this country's good at, it's having half the population hate our President...

...Probably better to do that in his second term though...

I very much doubt that Obama thinks a gay person is the equivalent of a pedophile and that a woman who has an abortion is the equivalent of a nazi.

The funny thing is (to me at least) that these people are complaining that he's sort of having the exact attitude he said he was going to have. You know, reaching out to those he doesnt necessarily agree with.

Obama knows that there are unfortunately a lot of citizens who dont agree with gay marriage or abortion. This stunt of his has upgraded him in their minds from "Muslim hell bent on destroying America" to simply "Muslim." Once they realize hes not planning on stripping away everybody's right to own a gun, they may think of him as just some guy who got elected even though he wasnt a US Citizen. He's slowly working his way up the ladder.

He also knows that the same people who all throughout election season were supporting him and trying to convince others to do so (by saying stuff like "he's going to reach out to those he doesnt necessarily agree with, unlike McCain who will bomb anybody he dislikes into oblivion before having a stroke") are going to continue to support him anyway.

Baby steps.

Sadly, it would be more than half the country that would turn on him. Whatever his personal feelings on the matter, it's clear that gay marriage is not a top priority for him (or any other mainstream politician, really), so why throw away political capital he wants to use on the economy and health care?

Rain Dog,

you know how annoyed you are at the racists who do racist things and then say they aren't racist? Warren has been following a parallel path, saying gays are unnatural and evil and then laughing (literally LOLing) when asked if he's a homophobe. But he gets away with it much more than those racists do. It's simple, it's annoying, and though admittedly having a guy speak is not a huge deal, it's still the first of the Obama "disappointments" that I care about at all.

Who prays at his inauguration is so not a priority right now. Holy shit.

I have to agree with what the Washington Post said. It really is akin to having an anti-Semite do the opening prayer. Would people say Obama was simply reaching out to people with different beliefs if he had a Jew-hating pastor up on stage? Probably not.

I'm not really surprised or disappointed by this. I'm waiting to see what the guy does when he's actually in office before judging him. This isn't a good first step.

Obama is most likely a true believer. Maybe not in Warren or his particular church, but definitely in God and Jesus. And he's quite fond of the social gospel, hence his interest in faith-based initiatives.

If you have a problem with that, despite all his otherwise very good characteristics, I think you might need to reprioritize, but whatevs.

What makes this a "first" step, exactly?

I can understand the outrage, but at the same time I've seen some pretty fucking hyperbolic reactions (namely, one young lady who, in all seriousness, angrily harped that he should be impeached on the first day). I don't like the choice and I think it's actually kinda dumb, but I can also see a tiny bit of logic in the decision.

I just meant if we consider Obama's inauguration the first step of his presidency, this isn't a good message to come out of the gate with. Of course, it's smarter for him to cuddle up to the evangelicals instead of the gays, as there's certainly a lot more of them. It still makes me a bit uncomfortable though.

Many of us told ourselves during the campaign "ah, he's just opposing gay marriage because he has to." But now we're in the early stages of the period when he doesn't have to, so everything he does feels like a "first" step toward the eventual tone the administration will take.

I basically feel the same as Jake. I know what the reasoning is, and if this were a West Wing episode I'd understand that deals have to made, people have to be pandered to, etc. but it's still not good and it's not nothing. It's bad, even if only slightly.

I don't think any of the liberals here are excited about this. But there's a pragmatic view that you can't have everything you want all at once, and gay rights is are an area where the political cost is ridiculously out of proportion to the benefits. And with all due respect to our gay friends, Obama never really promised them anything. You'll probably be better off than with McCain because he'll appoint more sympathetic, or at least not openly hostile, judges to the federal bench, and is not likely to take any affirmative steps to curtail your rights. But I'm afraid that's about it. It's going to take more years of attrition of homophobia as younger generations come up before it becomes viable for a nationally-elected official to take a stand for gay marriage without it sinking every other initiative on his agenda.

Supremo, I might have misread your "I'm waiting to see what the guy does when he's actually in office before judging him. This isn't a good first step" as speaking more broadly about his presidency than this specific issue. Sorry.

What will judge Obama's stance on all this (far more than choosing Rick Warren) will be his adminstrations view on the U.N. resolution calling for the end of criminality of homosexuality. A resolution that the U.S. didn't sign because of "concerns" with state's rights.

I don't really care for Rick Warren (personally, I would have like to see him pick Rev. Run and they do rousing rendition of Christmas in Hollis together) but the stuff being tossed around is a little knee-jerky.

Yeah, I don't even understand how there could be any confusion about this. What was that Wright flap about, again?

Sure, it's problematic that he selected Warren, but I sincerely doubt that the choice is meant to reflect his beliefs across the board. He picked the popular religious figurehead of the right to participate in a symbolically important, but pragmatically meaningless activity. It's a concession to the dipshits that has no practical value - it's not like Warren's going to have any say in the administration.

Obama has had to deal and will have to deal with a lot of people with whom he disagrees. His dealing with them and even building bridges with them (which seems to be his intent here) is analogous to the idea that he'd actually engage with foreign leaders with whom we disagree instead of ignoring the problem until it's bomb-able.

Plus, let's keep in mind that Warren isn't strictly the enemy of gays. He's the enemy of reproductive freedom, stem cell research, and plenty of other things that Obama is considerably less tentative about. It sends a very, very unfortunate message to gay Americans, but I'm a little hesitant to believe that this choice is somehow reflective of Obama's "true stance" on homosexuality any more than it's reflective of his stance on abortion rights.

Seconded.

I heard Obama and Gates both declare Gitmo will be closed right quick. Fucking wonderful. Who cares about a ceremony that will be over in seconds?

Wow. Obama can't take a shit without pissing people off. And liberals are the most sensitive motherfuckers in society.

This is just an inaugural prayer... its no big deal when you look at it in the short term.

However, looking at it in the long term I think it's a terrible mistake. The last thing the crazies need is more legitimacy by showing off their Christian-light pastors to the masses. What progressivism needs to do is fight off the separation of church and state altogether, not bring it together. All this is doing is legitimizing the views of crazy Christians. Hell, Obama won't recognize Fox News in press conferences. Oh wait... he's already preparing for 2012.

If this helps Obama avoid the 2009 version of gays in the military (something that sank Clinton) then it might be a net positive thing. But that's the charitable view.

I think that Warren's prayer is entirely symbolic, and that's part of why it has some all worked up. Liberals have been out in the wilderness for so long where all they got from the right was symbolic gestures, they have virtually no idea how to be "the man" and not sweat the small stuff. Add onto that, the justified irritation from the Prop 8 fiasco and you have a liberal constituency wounded and feeling cornered.

Rest assured, this is small potatoes and Dave's point about it being analogous to sitting down with unfriendly heads of state is well taken. That said, this certainly doesn't "feel" right. I'm not sure how open-minded Warren is to compromise and reason and taking hard truths to his congregation.

Not sure how relevant this is to the discussion, but I think that gay integration into hetero society at large will take time. Its not quite like racial agnosticism.

Look, folks, you wanted change. You've got it.

Obama didn't run on a platform of divisiveness. He ran on a platform of inclusion, and that means sitting down to dinner with folks whom you don't agree right down the line.

W couldn't do it, and that's something we voted to change.

High five, Frank!

Hey FUCK YOU, pragmatist!

*throws beer bottle*

In all seriousness, while I still hate the decision more than a bad case of swamp ass, I can see how folks are justifying it with respect to Obama's "change" concept, and I appreciate Obama sticking to his guns on the issue...but man, that doesn't stop me from hating the living crap out of this Warren dude.