Doomed from the Start: Pelham/Warriors (1/1/09)

The Warriors

As I've never seen the original cut, I can only go by this version, the director's cut. I find it interesting that this and Pelham both exist in a New York that's all but disappeared, the opening intro with the story of the greek army making it's way back home is a nice conceit but doesn't really add anything. Walter Hill constructs a terrific atmosphere in this film, it's absolutely wild, complete with groovy seventies music. Remember when Micheal Beck was a leading man? Me either, I guess Xanadu killed his career in more ways than one but he's really good here, there's a laidback cool he brings to the character of Swan, James Remar kicks all kinds of ass as Ajax even if he's an idiot, he get's the best line in the movie "I'm gonna shove that bat up your ass and use you as a popsicle"
I'm starting to wonder if there's a kind of weird sexual politics in this film, with Swan rejecting Mercy's advances, Rembrandt looking really uncomfortable in a room full of women (I understand there's a reason for it) and Mercy's plea to get shagged by a real man.

The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3
What really surprised me is how brisk this film was, an hour and 40 minutes just whisked by, this film is marvel of tight plotting and character interaction, Matthau's back and forth with the belligerent Dick O'Neil give this movie it's energy, this film is loaded with New York style character because of those two and also Caz. There's a ton of similarities between this and Die Hard, most importantly the casual animosity between Mr. Blue and Zach Garber, you don't doubt these two are professionals and they know what they're doing. The fact that Mr. Blue chose to end his life rather than face prison was a real shock, it was so abrupt.
The real capper on this film is the score, those heavy horns are awesome, it's totally seventies and it tells you this film is about to kick your ass then go home and sleep with your girlfriend, a totally badass film score.

I thought the Warriors was going to suck. I had never seen it, and up until Cyrus gets shot I was laughing at how bad it is. But then it slowly started growing on me. The characters start to distinguish themselves and I began to get a feel for what was happening. By the end, I liked it. Not as much as some of you, but I liked it.

Pelham is the better of the two movies. Taut is a good word. It's been a while since I saw it, but it seems very lean. I hate the freeze fame at the end but the ride up to there is pretty great. I saw this soon after seeing Failsafe and it gave me a pretty good insight into Walter Mathou's popularity. He does tense well.

I couldn't care less that these movies are set in the same city. I've been to New York a couple of times, but for the purposes of the movie, any large city could have been the setting (any large city with a subway at least).

I know this is a breach of ettiquette as I still need to rewatch The Warriors, but I just wanted to add a quick comment on Pelham (which I'd never seen before, but I loved the shit out of it). Jankis mentioned how taut the film is, and I couldn't agree more. The script is so completely efficient it's ridiculous. There's absolutely no fat on this movie, and not a single wasted moment (though the stuff with the mayor does come close to being superfluous). I love how it just jumps right into the action, and doesn't waste time on any sort of unnecessary set up. We learn everything about the crooks as the film goes on, and the filmmakers trust the audience enough to leave it at that. So fucking great, and a big thanks to CHUD for championing this film so far.

I'll be back later with thoughts on The Warriors, as I'll be picking that up from the library tonight. It's the director's cut, which I haven't seen yet, so I'm very interested in watching it again.

Someone who knows please tell us the difference between the original and director's cut of the Warriors. Is there more than the comic book stuff?

IMDB says it's just the opening bit and the comic freeze frames, both the kind of inorganic tinkering that I find distasteful in "director's cuts".

Fun fact: Both these films are being remade by Tony Scott (unless his Warriors remake plans have died).

When you say "just" you miss the fact that the director's cut totally ruins the entrance of the Baseball Furies, one of the movie's iconic moments.

I agree. My "just" was quantitative, not qualitative. I don't think the film should have been revisited at all. Aside from Hill's lackluster opening voiceover (feels as if the studio said "you want to add an opening narration? No problem. Here's a microphone"), the added info also ruins the "fantasy version of 70s New York" by Hill explicitly setting it in "the future". Bad calls, all around.

Additional fun fact: Vermin (who's now a reporter in Upstate NY) and Cochise (who's now a chubby, angry man) got into a shouting match at their autograph tables during a recent horror convention. Cochise wanted an extra $5 to have his picture taken, while Vermin was more affable, causing him to be yelled at by Cochise for making him look bad. It was pretty spectacular.

I watched The Warriors so long ago that other than the completely distracting comic book transitions I couldn't make out any of the differences. Sadly I could only find the director's cut so that's what I can go from.

These two movies make a surprisingly good double feature. And as much as I like The Warriors I have to admit that Pelham, which I saw for the first time, was the better movie. It's surprisingly funny, certainly better acted and for someone who started loving movies during the eighties, another reminder of a time when movie criminals weren't evil masterminds and cops weren't supermen. Although Hill was extremely on his game doing The Warriors. And even though racial politics aren't prominent in either film I appreciate Matthau's reaction to the black police commander better than the comedicaly multi-ethnic gangs of The Warriors.

I've heard that the Director's Cut of The Warriors is awful, but this is the first I've heard of the opening voiceover (just knowing that it's even there sounds awful enough) and the Baseball Furies transition. Makes me very glad that I got the theatrical cut when it first came out, seeing as how so many people seem to have trouble finding it.

Dragon Ma: My dvd store guy told me Pelham wasn't out on DVD in Australia...did you score a copy or did you catch this on video?
I might have to stick to just The Warriors if I can't find the sucker.

Except that Pelham's whole attitude and style is distinctly New York-ian.

That could be the best description I've ever heard for this tremendously entertaining score. I remember the first time I saw the original PELHAM and how a big goofy smile cracked across my face as soon as Shire's music kicked in.

I think a great triple bill would be PELHAM, DIE HARD WITH A VENGEANCE and INSIDE MAN...with QUICK CHANGE as a light after-hours nightcap.

Something that I just remembered. As Matthau explained in the movie, the hijacked train started from Pelham Station. And as far as I can tell from the map of the train routes in The Warriors, the gang gathering in the begging was set at Pelham Park. Or am I wrong?

And as for the Baseball Furies' entrance, who the hell thought that "Oh, shit! It's the Baseball Furies!" was a good idea? It's a good thing the proceeding chase scene is so good.

I think Strax described it as 'sex on a stick'

Okay, random thoughts, since I've just finished The Warriors.


Pelham: Good movie. Enjoyable. Well-paced, and I still want to be Robert Shaw when I grow up.

I'll admit, the first half-hour I was fighting my baggage about Matthau, in that I see him tinged in a more humorous light due to the majority of films I've seen of his most recently. I think that might have worked towards the movie's favor nearing the end. I could see how someone else might take that role and try to make it into a hard/bad ass kind of character, but Garber always felt like a normal schmoe concerned about doing the right thing.

One thing that really stuck out at me was my feeling that the women in this movie were mostly wallpaper. Flaky hippie chick, screaming mom, put-upon secretary. None of them played any major role in pushing the direction of the story, except for Doris Roberts, the mayor's wife, in the one scene where she manipulated the mayor into taking action. Which is fine and good, since I'd guess the subway/city government was a boys' club back in the day. But, my hopes were raised by the way Garber kept correcting people when they assumed the cop on the subway was male, insisting that the cop might be female.

When the reveal came, I'll admit I was a little disappointed. But, that's neither here nor there. Though, I will admit that I'm kind of curious to see if the remake they're doing will feature more women.

Glad this one was chosen, or I probably wouldn't have bothered to seek it out. This would be a great film to have around to watch with my dad, so I might end up picking it up.


Warriors: I haven't watched this movie in quite some years. After rewatching, I pretty much feel the way I did the first time I saw it: fun, definitely a group watch film. But there are a few things here and there that put me off just enough to keep this from being a favorite. In particular:

The Baseball Furies, for all the air of menace they had chasing the guys around, really weren't all that. They fell prey to the "take them on one at a time" device. This still annoys me. They're the scariest of the bunch, what with the silence and the weird clown thing and the bats, but they didn't do much damage, at all. If they'd just jumped on the few Warriors, en masse, bats a swingin', it would've ended it, though. Maybe they live by some code that I'm unaware of - feel free to correct me.

The Lizzies. They outnumbered the guys by quite a bit. They had them locked in and they had weapons and the guys escaped with nothing but a scratch to show for it. If most of the other gangs hadn't been shown as being similarly inept (or the Warriors as JUST. THAT. GOOD.), I would've been crying foul. To be fair, Cochise pretty much owned this entire scene, what with the bug eyes at the knife reveal and the chair smash over that one girl's head...

I liked Mercy's character more this time around, instead of just thinking she was a trouble-making annoyance, as I did the last time. She was determined to take what she could from life with what little she had, however she felt necessary. Also, she was able to make Swan more "likable", in a sense that his tendency to want to protect her, even from herself, made him a little more palatable than someone like, say, Ajax.

(Honestly, I really shouldn't care about any of these guys. They're out to beat the shit out of whomever they come across and rape seems to be a pretty standard option on their menu. So, it always surprises me a bit when, due to the sheer awesomeness of Remar, I feel the tiniest twinge of regret that he's been busted. VERY tiny. But there. Although, I wouldn't have minded if Mercedes had cracked his skull once or twice...)

Also, Mercy didn't back down at the end. From being lost and unhappy with her circumstance in the beginning with the Orphans, she'd finally found people strong enough to hang with. And she was determined to be at their side with that broken bottle, ready to throw down with her new crew.

I still was bit agog at her running around in those shoes, but I'll wave that off to the magic footwear one finds in Hollywood.

I want to find the original cut of this movie, though. The comic book cuts really do annoy me...

Final verdict: Out of the two, if forced to choose, I'd probably take Pelham as I find it a bit more meaty and satisfying. The Warriors will remain the occasional party h'ordeuvre to enjoy while in good company. Both make me wish we had decent public transportation in this area...

I still haven't seen Pelham since they seemed to have taken it off of Hulu just before I was going to watch it, so I'll just comment on The Warriors.

It's been one of my favorite movies since I was a kid. It's got that great gritty feel that really provides a nice contrast to some of the goofier things in there like the gimmicky gangs. Baseball clowns and karate gang bangers really shouldn't work in a mean, down and dirty New York gang movie, but Hill directs it all so well that it all comes together perfectly.

It's directed extremely well and paced almost perfectly. There really aren't any boring or slow parts. It's all pretty tight.

I love a lot of the characters, but only after seeing it so many times has it really dawned on me how flat and one-dimensional most of them are. Both the characters and the actors. Obviously Cowboy and Vermin and so many others are just filler characters, but even the more prominent characters don't get much to do. No one gets much to do except be "cool." It still works though. The movie moves along so well that it doesn't really matter. Even the down right bad performances (Thomas Waites as Fox) kind of just blend in to the surreal world of cool that the film presents.

Enough can't be said about Remar as Ajax, Roger Hill as Cyrus, and David Patrick Kelly as Luther though. They're all the MVPs of the movie and really memorable characters.

And I know it's been beaten into the ground already, but the director's cut is just terrible. I'm so glad I got the theatrical version when it first came out. The whole comic book thing with the director's cut is just plain retarded. What a crock of shit.

On a side note (for The Warriors), I'm sure it's pure coincidence but, after reading Can't Stop Won't Stop by Jeff Chang just before watching The Warriors recently, I can't help but draw comparisons between Cyrus and Afrika Bambaataa. In the late 70's he tried to get the gangs to make peace and shit and as long as he was DJing all was good. I'm not describing the situation as well as Chang did but, if you take what he described and added in the whole Malcolm X assassination vibe, you have Cyrus in a nutshell.

Pelham is off Hulu? Dammit. I was just going to watch it and was all hyped up after reading some of the posts here. Shit.

But I did watch the director's cut of The Warriors. I didn't expect the comic book transitions to be as bad and distracting as they were and the intro stuck out terribly. But the movie was still awesome and made my friends into big fans. You're right Summer, definitely a great movie to see with a group.

I wish the the buildup to the Baseball Furies clash could be combined with the intensity of the fight with the Punks (which is great in its own right).

Also, I really need to get my hands on the soundtrack.

"I can't go in there, it's the men's room" "Are you kiddin' me?"

I love the way Cochise just grabs her by the front of the shirt and pulls her in.

Yeah, it's one of my all time favorite soundtracks. And I really love the score. It's really funky and cool. I love the opening credits with the theme playing and the montage of all the gangs heading toward the big meeting. Hill really used the music perfectly in the movie.

I watched Pelham a week and a half ago and I have to say I really appreciated it. What I found interesting was all the times that I kept expecting there to be twists but then not. Like summer said, I expected the undercover cop to be a woman. Also, it really seemed like the mayor's number 2 guy was pushing to give them the money too much so that I thought he may have been involved. Plus, I don't know if it's more familiar with these kind of tropes but after Green sneezed the first time, I was pretty sure that it would be that thing that gave him away.

What really surprised me though was the way Mr. Blue (Shaw's character) offed himself when he knew he was caught. Just calmly hitting the third rail and frying himself.

As for the setting, it does really have that 70's New York feel to it though. It's amazing how the city had such a presence then that it bleeds into the film. It's interesting how most of the re-gentrified cities now don't really have that kind of personality anymore.

Yeah, that was totally unexpected but it really fits with Mr. Blue's character, total victory or die attitude.

Another really great thing about Pelham was the total WTF reactions from everyone in the beginning, none of them can believe someone would actually hold up a train.

Yeah Ive had a real hard time tracking down Pelham myself to be honest which is shit.

Did watch the Warriors the other nightfor the very first time. Unfortunately, I only have the access to the Directors Cut. Even having never seen the original, the comic book cut scening took me out of the film and the ancient greek intro was beyond-superfluous.

I love that in Walter Hills introduction to the cut he states he's uncomfortable with Directors Cuts in general because he thinks they often add nothing to the original, then goes on to show me hands-down the most redundant directors cut Ive ever seen.

Looking forward to seeing the original theatrical cut, but must say even with the lame additions I really enjoyed this film, Im just stunned its taken me so very long to finally catch it (I was always a Wanderers guy growing up).

Never realised a very young James Remar (who was pretty cool as the very unlikeable Ajax) was in this and spent the first half of the film being tortured trying to work out where I recognised Luther from until it finally hit me he was that head henchman from The Crow.

Oh and James Beck deserved a helluva lot better career than he ended up with, he was a great lead in this I thought.

All in all a pretty simple story, but so evocative and colourful I really wish I'd caught this when I was 13-14, because it would have blown my mind.

Great 70's soundtrack, and the New York depicted felt like a fantasy 70's NY that felt like a cross between Taxi Drivers dirty NY and the Land of Oz.

Fucking awesome little film and, like I said, can't wait to see the theatrical cut.

Quick question - is there a remastered version of the theatrical cut or is it just this DC that got cleaned up? Because the cut I saw was clear as day and looked beautiful at least.

One of my favorite parts of Pelham was the "It's on the move!-What's on the move?" exchange that goes one time after time when the train starts moving after the ransom is delivered.

I'd bet money Tim Burton never saw Pelham.

The comic book transitions in The Warriors are wrong on a number of fronts, but the fact that the panels look more Linklater than Creepshow doesn't help.

David Patrick Kelly's an underrated great in the character actor world. I'm sure the B Action thread has a few pages devoted to him. See him shine in Dreamscape, 48 Hours and Flirting With Disaster. And he sings.

The man got Xanadu - what more could an actor ask?

MICHAEL! Michael Beck. His recent resume is all guest shots on stuff like Jag and Walker Texas Ranger.

Here he is today (this pic is copyrighted, guys, so be careful about spreading it around):

Don't forget his tour de force performance as Sully in Commando.

The changes in the Warriors director's cut hurt me on an historical/anthropological level, but this is the version with all the DVD extras, so I'm going to have to begrudgingly recommend it. And now I'm going to rewatch the other version to see exactly what got fucked with those comic panel transitions.

I think I hate that Hill explicitly calls it out as being "in the future". I think I preferred it being (as I think Devin mentioned) a 1980-ish alternate reality, with racially mixed gangs all operating with some system of organization in some completely unreal version of the boroughs.

Why does Michael Beck remind me of Roger Waters in that pic, it's really quite un-nerving.

I met ALL* of the surviving Warriors when the Alamo did a roadshow presentation of THE WARRIORS at Coney Island. I interviewed some of them in advance to promote the thing. I hung out with a couple of them before the show. None of them would sign my poster for free. This is the mindset of the aged B actor.

This is the poster: http://www.mondotees.com/index.asp?P...OD&ProdID=3290 It's now hanging, unsigned, directly to my right.

*Except Remar, who didn't show.

Interesting points. When I first saw the movie, I too had Matthau baggage. I mean, do I realy want to see an Action movie with the guy from The Odd Couple & Grumpy Old Men?? Once ya get past that, you see he really works. The performance gets better everytime I watch. Having a non-glamorous actor (a schlubby one at that) playing the role accents the griminess. (Matthau's also good against type in Charley Varrick)

**Cool poster, Devin!**

I DID see Remar in an antique store with James Russo in 1993.

You guys are missing out on Matthau. He's also great in a film that will change your mind about another familiar actor with baggage - A Face In The Crowd.

CHARLIE VARRICK is AMAZING. Matthau plays a guy who fucks not one but TWO hot broads without any joke about his looks or anything. You would never get that today.

Everyone should see this movie. Griffith's performance will blow your mind if you've seen his TV show a few times.

I never saw Pelham, but Matthau has played enough dramatic roles that I'd love to see this just based on him.

The Warriors is fantastic. Sort of happy I've never seen the director's cut because I'd hate to think of this movie as anything other than a late 70s/early 80s gang war. That future nonsense would be in the way.

Finally saw Pelham about ten minutes ago and I'm just going to throw all my thoughts out here at once...

Wow, just wow - what a fucking brilliant little gem of a thriller this is. The soundtrack's already been lauded but damn if that didn't put you right in the heart of 70's Noo Yawk - and I gotta spell it like that because this may be the most 'Noo Yawkiest' NY film Ive almost ever seen. Not just the accents and the settings but the whole fuck-you blase attitude of the characters in the film.

I love the way that no one can quite believe anyone would hijack a train, including the fucking hostages for chrissake! They see men with automatic weapons and they're still talking and asking questions, only when someone is actually killed do they really shut up and understand the gravity of the situation.

I love how almost every cop and city official is either inept, stupid, obnoxious or all three. I love how Matthau is the total opposite to every hero in an action thriller I''ve almost ever seen and I love his little moments of humour he just nails (surprised no ones mentioned my favourite comedy line of his - when the long-haired undercover cop is lying on his belly, shot, on the tracks near the end and Garber says "Don't worry Miss, an ambulance is on it's way").

I love that Carrell is so obnoxiously beligerent that all he can think about is his subway sytem and screw anything else, including the hostages, I adore that Grey, the one hijacker who acts like a nasty psycho like every other bad guy of his type in later films is seen as a liability and problem by the other three instead of their attack dog and I simply love the shit out of Robert Shaw.

There's pretty much nothing I didn't love about this movie (sorry to go all Ben Mankiewicz with you guys on this one), except that I'm annoyed it's taken me 32 years to catch it. This film was a fave of my dads but we never got around to watching it together, I finally see why he used to rave about it.

A sharp, fast moving film that sets itself up quick and doesn't draw breath yet still manages to set up it's very real, very human characters in perfect fashion, with an ending that's twist is that it has no twist (other than Shaw taking himself out like that, that surprised the hell out of me).

I'm stunned this was never held up as an example of brilliant - and tho the terms been used in this thread already, it's spot on - 'taut' filmic storytelling in any of the screenwriting courses I did. This for me was a masterclass in how to make a thriller, and I wish wish wish they still made them like this one - Tony Scotts going to fucking murder everything thats good about this film in his remake no question.



...on a personal note, I want to thank everyone involved in suggesting this little double feature and discussion, it's motivated me to watch two films I've never seen from my favourite era of film-making ever and plugged what I now realise are two big gaps in my 70's Hollywood (and especially NY) film knowledge. Ofd the two I loved Pelham just that little bit more - but honestly, only just.

Fantastic suggestion and I can't wait for the next double feature.

(My suggestion for the next round is a Kurosawa does Shakespeare double of Throne of Blood and Ran)

So yeah, thanks chud - this has been great fun

Pelham might be the crankiest movie ever made. All of the characters outside of the hijackers seem to be rude, exasperated and always arguing with each other. I also love the fast-paced comedic dialogue; this could almost be The Front Page or His Girl Friday with machine guns.

I want to sign a petition to send to Washington to ask Obama to replace "Hail to the Chief" with the Pelham theme for his term.

Watched The Warriors director's cut tonight, and I have to say that I didn't like it all that much. The comic book transitions were just distractions, and really didn't work all that well. Having said that, the movie itself is still pretty god damned great. Like Pelham, the script is just so economical, there's no wasted beats. It just moves along at this great clip, and all the information you need to know is presented in such a fashion that it never slows down the action. Both films would be great examples to use in a screenwriting course

I know it's fairly obvious, but I really love the way all the gangs are presented, as though they really did step out of the pages of a comic book. The costumes are so great in this movie. Unfortunately, the director's cut sort of hammers the point home a bit too much.

On a side note, I know the point of this endeavor was the fact that both films are set in New York, but I really think throwing in the original Assault on Precinct 13 would make for a great triple feature.

Is there even a reason behind the Director's Cut for The Warriors? Didn't it come out at around the same time the videogame did? Like Phil said, it just seems reduntant, and half of the changes that were mentioned so far make me want to pull my hair. A voiceover? Jesus.

I'm glad that I blind-bought the original cut back in the day.

And I'm seriously jazzed to see so much appreciation for Pelham. When I recommend it to people, they look at me like I'm absolutely nuts (like when I pumped my fist in the air during a Film Studies class when the teacher announced the screening) but then practically everyone enjoys it.

I'll also second the endorsement for Charley Varrick, even though it's been a long time since I've seen it. I really need to fix that.

The voiceover is further lessened by the way the DVD plays Hill's intro before starting the film. He talks for a few minutes. Then the movie starts and his voice comes back on to tell you about history.

Yeah, I was not a fan of the voice over at all. In fact, that whole prologue was so unnecessary. Again, I can see why Hill did it, but it's like Jurassic Park...just because he could, doesn't mean he should.

What I find funny is that Hill tells us in the intro that he doesn't like director's cut's, explains why, then proceeds to contradict everything he's just said by doing the very things he doesn't like in director's cuts.

I missed this, bu tluckily my wife caught it. Great moment. Paraphrasing my favorite line, form the station manager who was the 1st to die- "How are you expected to run a God damn train station without cursing?"

I'm pretty much in agreement on the great acting and the incredible score. This movie also has some really great tension. Shaw's steadfast determination to stick to the time was very effictive. After the police car crashed while transporting the money, I thought for sure the shit was going to hit the fan. Shaw's death was a huge left field moment.

I have director's cut of The Warriors still to watch. Been a while since I saw the original cut, so hopefully i can look past the changes.

Great suggestions, can't wait to see what the next double bill will be.

Speaking of which, I was wondering how we decide who picks the next movies. Because I have an idea for what could be a really cool double feature. I'm just saying, is all.

I think Chris Olson should pick. (But not until the end of the month or something; give more people a chance to watch these two.)