Convince me that Dr. Who isn't the worst shit ever

Oh, Devin. You rascal. Pushing buttons and taking names.

There's fans of Dr. Who?

Honest question: how is Dr. Who different from original Trek? They both just seem silly, campy sci-fi shows with rubber monsters.

Note that I don't have a connection to either and kind of like them both, from what little I've seen of them (scattered, random episodes here and there).

Kinda depends on what you have seen. Some of it IS pretty crap and nigh undefendable but the gold in this property is fucking awesome. Any of the recent episodes that Steve Moffat wrote for example are some of the best television out there, if you can't get behind his stuff the character and indeed the whole concept of the show just isn't going to work for you.
From the new stuff try Girl in the Fireplace, Blink and the two parter Unearthly Child/The Doctor Dances. If you can't get into any of that you won't like any of it.
But yeah; it's totally gay.

I think it helps to be british?
I haven't watched since I was a kid, but I have friends who watch this, as well as other fine programming such as Lost and BSG. These friends also watch Stargate Maguyver and NCIS. Take that as you will.

The show runner is openly gay, so that's a fair reading.

I like the show. I have nostalgia for the original series, and the new one is a decent update, so there's that. I don't know if it's possible to convert someone to the show. There's an episode in the third series called "Blink" that is the show at it's best; if you find nothing to enjoy in that episode, it isn't for you.

HEROES is the worst thing ever.

Or Australian.
It's a weird thing, none of my American friends can stand it. They just can't seem to click with the show, period. Even the good stuff they think is shit.
I always much preferred this to Trek; its less rigid and poe faced.

Yeah I'll fight anyone who tries to tell me Doctor Who is the worse shit on tv as long as fucking Heroes is still running.

All I've seen is the Tennant stuff and some of it is pretty great.

Nah that's not weird, there is so much of it spread out over such a huge amount of time and so much of it is patchy it's almost impossible to come to grips with if you didn't grow up with it. All you need to do is watch the first episode of the new series, Rose, and anything from half way through season 1 onwards...first few episodes of the relaunched version are shit.
Honestly there are some of the best science fiction stuff out there in some of the new stuff. It's pretty good.

I've seen enough (of the new ones) to know that I don't love the show, but I admit that the best episodes are very solid and even the worst aren't embarrassing. Definitely supergay and definitely far from being the worst anything ever.

The thing about Dr. Who is, it's for British kids. You can't compare it to a BSG or even Star Trek because the intended audience isn't the same. There will always be a juvenile element to Dr. Who; you either roll with it or you don't. Also, being a fan of British TV helps.

EDIT: The best episodes across the board are written by Stephen Moffat. The good news is that he's taking over as show runner in 2010, so maybe the gayness will be lessened.

The newer series haven't been aimed at kids at all. They might be accessible to kids, but I don't think you can say the Doctor/Rose dynamic was geared towards children.

One of the most successful aspects of the show is how broad an audience it can appeal to. One episode will have shitty retarded looking cutesy pie aliens, the next will have a gag about a womans face being grafted onto a piece of cement and offering her boyfriend a blow job. It alternates between nice and nasty almost effortlessly at times.

It totally is. It's a chaste schoolboy/schoolgirl crush.

You'll hate the shit out of Doctor Who Devin, I guarantee it. And the supergay element is definitely a concious part of the show, the new series is something that I enjoy but it super campy at times.

I love the shit out of the show because I like the character and I like a lot of the writers involved enough to let the occasional transgression past but deep at its heart it's a show that is designed for 7-14 year olds and you have to have a serious case of arrested development to get anything out of it.

If you do give any episodes a go I'd suggest trying Human Nature/The Family of Blood, probably one of the strongest standalone episodes I've seen on the show.

Looking back at that I have to add that it really is designed as 'light' viewing, it's aired in the early evening late afternoon on Saturdays over here and is designed as a lead-in to prime time shows

And Rose/Doctor is probably the most juvenile relationship since the the Twilight Books. Just because it went on forever didn't mean it had any depth.

I don't agree with that at all. It's not so childish and juvenile that an adult can't sit down and watch it without feeling insulted. This isn't like a grown man sitting down to watch Clone Wars on his own free will.
Agreed the crush angle was lame though. Shat me up the wall by the end of it.

It has farting aliens, gigantic robots destroying Victorian London, and killer Christmas trees. It may be a snappily written children's show, but it's still a piece of entertainment for kids. The fact we enjoy it is because we change our attitudes to the material to compensate for that.

I didnt say it wasnt childish, I was the first one to mention the shitty childish aliens, I just think its not acurate to say you can only enjoy it as an adult if you are still mired in a 17 year old mind set as you suggested.
Totally forgot about the Family of Blood double parter. That is easily the best intro to the show and character.

"Gridlock" is a pretty good standalone episode as well.

Gridlock seems to me at least to be too mired in the continuity of the new series to function as an introduction.

The Impossible Planet double bill and Tooth and Claw would be great introductions though.

Impossible Planet was awesome. Tooth and Claw would be an outstanding introduction. That or Fathers Day from the first season would be a good opener.
Girl in the Fireplace is the one I usually give to people as an entry point, that one has pretty much all the best elemtents of the show: the way they use the concept of time travel, kinda cool "Bad Guys" it's one of the historical entries and it has the slightly off centre morality that the show sometimes goes with.
Madame De Pompadour is hot, also.

It's always hard introducing people to Doctor Who because the 'proper' introduction episodes (Rose/The End of the World) are a complete bore and some of the best episodes (The Sound of Drums/Blink/Silence in The Library/Dalek) all require at least a cursory knowledge of the new canon. That and the fact that a third of the new Doctor Who episodes are legitimately terrible. I keep catching repeats of the first and second series and it really is clear that whilst the passion is their they're still trying to find their feet more than anything else.

Yeah the first half of series one is nigh unwatchable. The two part Slitheen stuff is fucking shithouse. There wasn't a bad episode in Season Four though as far as I can remember. Some people didn't dig the send off but I thought it was fun.

But it's a good test of the sensibilities. If you don't dig on the central premise of the episode, you're probably not going to like the show in general.

In my view:

Series One is largely ramshackle with some great moments.

Series Two has some definite peaks but it also features some of the worst episodes of the entire show.

Season Three has an okay start, let down by a terrible two parter, and then has perhaps the longest run of great episodes in the shows entire history.

Season Four is consistently good, but that's largely to do with how strong a core The Doctor and Donna are. Both actors really bring their all and elevate even the more mundane episodes. There are some fantastic episodes though and Midnight is one of my all time favourite Doctor Who episodes.

When it's good the show is funny, engaging, clever and a ton of fun but when it goes wrong it goes badly wrong and the problem is that Team never seem to recognise this either. There's a certain hubris to them, partially heightened by the Confidentials making the productions so transparent, that means that bad ideas are continually returned to and never really improved upon or evolved (see Cybermen).

Dickson: As a litmus test its great, but whilst I like the episode it's probably a little inert as an introduction and its centred around getting to a character who only really means something to people familiar with the show.

Yeah, that is the best episode.

I disliked the series four finale. It was just one big fanwank.

Girl in the Fireplace really is quite remarkable, it's actually my favourite Moffat episode thus far. It plays with its science fiction concepts in quite an interesting fashion whilst still being able to keep the attention of its younger audience and work a romantic storyline into the heart of proceedings. More than Blink it was the episode which made me hope Moffat would get the show runner role because it showed he had the right instincts for the show.

Funny this should be brought up right when I got the lady a Roku for Christmas and finally got around to watching the first ep. Was left lukewarm at best on first viewing. So I should skip the successive episodes and go straight to the episodes recommended here? I won't be lost?

You should probably check out Supernatural season 4 instead.

"Girl in the Fireplace" is a great stand alone episode. If only the series reached that level more often.

I actually read the novelizations when I was a wee lad (Dad brought them over from the UK when he was on travel). So I'd built up this huge Star Wars type show in my mind, then finally saw one of the Tom Baker episodes when PBS first started to broadcast them. My reaction? "Sarah Jane is Hot! But are you fucking kidding me with those crap FX?!"

But yeah, the new series is totally gay

Plus Points:

- Witty in an oddly metrosexual way
- It's got an interesting pacifistic ethos at its heart
- Ecclestone and Tennant are really great as the Doctor and there are some great performances from other members of the cast and guest starts
- Some really great design work
- The central concept keeps the show fresh, means that each episode is often quite surprisingly different from the last

Weak Points

- Outstandingly camp
- The characterisation of the doctor is cloying a lot of the time
- None of the writers know how to write a climax or finale

Well, try the episodes we're recommending.

I think the premise is brilliant: A guy who can travel to any place/any time and have adventures. A guy who thinks visiting Pompei right before the eruption is a fun holiday. Yet the character has an innate optimism (esp about the human race) and seeks to protect the innocent. But who on occasion really screws with said innocents.

It's because better you watch the individual episodes to see why, when good, the show is a clever mix of character/sci-fi/adventure and light horror. If you start at the beginning of the 2005 reboot you won't make it to the second episode.

EDIT: Also what those guys^ said.

We have actually been discussing which are the best episodes to try and get someone to dig the show. Some people find the show a bit inaccessible and we have been discussing the ones best to hook you into.
Bottom line though is that other than Galactica it's the best science fiction show currently screening on TV.
Simple as that.

Seriously, it's tough to crystalise exactly why it's worth your time. It's like someone asking for reasons to watch Star Trek: TOS.

The show has a certain spark and energy to it, when it works, that is hard to describe. It's a perfect marriage of talent and script with actors like David Tennant managing to make even the worst scripts almost seethe with energy.

The episodes that were written by Steve Moffat are some of the strongest, smartest and most satisfying genre stuff out there. Spielberg and Jackson seemed to think he has the goods. Seriously his work is head and shoulders above anyone else currently around.
His episodes:
The Empty Child/The Doctor Dances.
The Girl in the Fireplace.
Blink.
He has two others in season four but Id stick with these. I know you like clever genre stuff; this is as good as it gets on the medium of television.

Spike sums up the pluses and minuses of the new series pretty well, so I'll just say that I didn't get into the latest incarnation for the longest time because of the same reason Devin did -- the huge number of episodes can seem like a pretty insurmountable thing when it comes to backstory -- but the new series is almost like a "reboot" and lets the new or returning viewer get caught up in an engaging way.

Although, yeah, 'Girl in the Fireplace' is probably one of the best episodes to see if you like it or not. And if you have to choose between this and Supernatural....go with this.

I enjoy it primarily for these reasons:

Strong characters, even the supporting ones.

Uses its central conceit of time/space travel cleverly and inventively.

Has nice moments of horror sprinkled in here and there.

Seriously Spielberg and Jackson picked the writer of an English science fiction show to handle their big new franchise, one who has no feature experience at all incidentally; that alone should be enough to encourage someone to at least give the episodes a watch.

The character himself is the only genre character today who makes thinking his way out of a problem just as exciting as fighting his way out, which he hardly ever does.

There's only a minimal arch, so you can start with whichever episode you want, which is why we were naming them. It only takes one excellent 45 minute episode to give the show a fair shot. It helps if you choose one of the 3 episodes that have won Hugo awards.

I hate it when I dislike a show and my friends say "you just haven't seen the good ones," but with Doctor Who I was convinced that sometimes that holds very, very true.

There's also a dvd review of seasons 3 and 4 of the new series on this very site.

For what it's worth, I appreciate all the suggestions. I was seriously just about to start a similar thread, albeit more diplomatically worded. I'll be checking out the recommended eps and see if they deliver more then the series opener did.

I almost doubt that Devin's ever going to get a satisfactory answer here. There's a certain zen-like indifference I think, in all but the most hardcore fans. The rest of us know it's dopey and campy but like it for the incidentals. The characters and monsters are fun and the stories are just clever enough to be worthwhile. It's light entertainment, and for that reason I don't know that there are going to many people willing to evangelize it who aren't complete psychos anyway.

But yes, the relaunched series is incredigay. The Tom Baker years might be better if you're interested in more conceptual scifi. But even then it was all in service of allowing a goofy-looking guy to do goofy shit on TV for half an hour.