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Confessions of a West Wing virgin...

post #1 of 143
12/30/08 at 8:35am
Thread Starter 


So after many years of avoiding this show studiously, history has re-aligned to the point I wanted to watch it at last. In fact, here's my post regarding this in the presidential thread from back in October...

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Read into this what you will all...

For the longest time I have refused to watch The West Wing.

I've always known I'd love it, the writing is some of the best on television and it has some incredible actors dealing with big, heavy themes and subjeccts. No, the reason I couldn't watch it was for many of the reasons Ive stated above, because with all the great writing and acting the story had the White House populated by honest, genuinely good people who were in politics and running the nation for the noblest of intentions - in other words, a white house administration that the cynic in me believe could no longer exist in the real world, if indeed it had ever existed at all.

The whole show as a consequence just seemed like a big leftie tease, the idea that you could lose yourself for an hour every week with a president and his team that was everything you wished a pres could and should be, while in the real world we were suffering under the very realworld administration of W. It felt like fantasy land for idealistic political boffins, so as a consequence, I stayed away.

Then, in the last tweleve months, as the idea of President Barack Hussein Obama went from being nothing but a lovely dream to being a political possibility, and idealism and hope became political currency for the first time in my lifetime - whith the idea of a truely honest, good man who actually seemed to have the better angels of our nature at heart getting the chance to run the worlds largest superpower seemingly a very real possibility, well, The West Wing all of a sudden didn't look too far-fetched.

I then promised myself that if Obama won, I would finally indulge and watch the whole damn series back to back.

Last night, I placed season one in my quickflix cue - and realised what it meant only after I'd done it.
Well, I ended up getting given the shows first two seasons for my birthday shortly after I posted that, and Ive finally started watching season one in the last fortnight - I have two episodes left to go in the first season.

Holy fuck fiddling shit, this show is so breath-takingly stunning, in it's writing, it's plotting and its performances I am honestly gob-smacked.

Now, I freely admit, Im a political animal who grew up in a pretty intensely politically savvy household, but this is some of the most enjoyable TV I have simply ever seen, not just because I find the labyrinth cut and thrust of politics to be utterly riveting, but because Sorkin does such an incredible job of keeping a show that could easily be completely unfathomable for the average watcher not just discernable, but incredibly entertaining as well, this may be fast becoming my favourite show ever.

My better half is the opposite end of the spectrum when it comes to me as far as interest in politics goes, but the show is simply so well written, the characters are so likeable and the performances so good that she's been there every step of the way with me and loving it as well.

As with the other virgin confession threads in the TV forum I have to ask, is this kind of quality maintained throughout the show?

...cause once we reached the "Let Bartlett Be Bartlett" episode tonite where Jeb stops trying to please everyone and seemingly satisfying no one to actually standing up and fighting for the thing's he believes, even if it will cost him his second term, I found myself applauding and getting a zing up my spine I have only gotten very very rarely in both TV and films.

Love it love it love it. Its only my missus lack of watching stamina thats pacing me through this and stopping me from simply watching it in my every waking recreational moment (tho I think Im enjoying it more as a consequence).

Any other fans out there? Does this show get better than this?
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post #2 of 143
12/30/08 at 10:38am
Everyone I know has told me to watch it. I just never got around to it, knowing that once I started there would be 7 seasons worth of material to get to. I just received the first season for Chanukah so now I have no excuse. However, it has to wait until I finish The Wire (I just started season 4).
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post #3 of 143
12/30/08 at 10:50am
The second season is better. (and it's in widescreen!)
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post #4 of 143
12/30/08 at 11:07am
Agreed on that, James. And Diva, while I like the later seasons, you could reasonably stop after Season 4 and see most -- if not all -- of the greatness.
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post #5 of 143
12/30/08 at 11:09am
Ahh, to enjoy The West Wing for the first time. What a pleasure.
Such a fantastic show. I feel i know the first 4 seasons by hard. But every time i come across them on cable, i am compelled to watch!
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post #6 of 143
12/30/08 at 11:16am
There are some soft spots in five and six, but by the end of seven I was totally ready for another seven seasons of watching the new administration.
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post #7 of 143
12/30/08 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louris View Post
There are some soft spots in five and six, but by the end of seven I was totally ready for another seven seasons of watching the new administration.
I was ready to watch either the Democratic OR Republican candidate.

Still not a fan of how they treated Toby in the last season though.
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post #8 of 143
12/30/08 at 1:00pm
It loses a bit of steam when Sorkin and Lowe leave. But even at it's worst it was better than 95% of all the other shows on TV. And i would have totally been down with seeing another seven seasons with the new President.
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post #9 of 143
12/30/08 at 1:54pm
Especially with Ed O'Neill as the VP. God dammit I love it when he's on screen.
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post #10 of 143
12/30/08 at 5:02pm
Agree on Toby's treatment in the last season and I think even Richard Schiff agrees. And when Sorkin leaves, you will "feel" it, but it's still very watchable.

The ending of Two Cathedrals (second season's finale) might just be my favorite moment in TV, so even if the show eventually settles at a "not entirely brilliant" level, once Sorkin leaves, I think you'll still be blown away some more.
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post #11 of 143
12/30/08 at 5:45pm
I used to watch re-runs of this on Bravo a lot with my dad. He lent me all seven season box sets in exchange for my Shield boxsets but now that I've started The Wire and The Sopranos it'll be a bit before I get to this.

Two Cathedrals is still the best hour of television I've ever watched. It's not even the speech. It's the conversation in the Oval Office before he goes to the press conference that gets me more than anything.

Although the speech is fucking awesome don't get me wrong.
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post #12 of 143
12/30/08 at 5:46pm
As out of nowhere as that two-partner may be. To see John Goodman in charge. Well, that was fun.
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post #13 of 143
12/30/08 at 5:51pm
This is my next big TV project once I'm done with Twin Peaks.
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post #14 of 143
12/30/08 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
As out of nowhere as that two-partner may be. To see John Goodman in charge. Well, that was fun.
I still think it would have been better story wise if the Daughter had died.
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post #15 of 143
12/30/08 at 8:12pm
Killing Zoey off would have been lame. Abbey divorcing Bartlet (Jed, not Jeb, btw) would have been much more interesting from a storytelling standpoint, I think.

Two Cathedrals is pretty much the single greatest hour of dramatic network television ever.
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post #16 of 143
12/30/08 at 8:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Two Cathedrals is pretty much the single greatest hour of dramatic network television ever.
"Three Men and Adena" begs to differ.
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post #17 of 143
12/30/08 at 9:37pm
This and The Wire are my two biggest Television Shames. The Wire DVD set will be snapped up via my tax refund, and someday I hope to get to Wing. I don't want my only television Sorkin exposure to be Studio 60.
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post #18 of 143
12/30/08 at 9:52pm
Nobody's only Sorkin experience should be Studio 60.
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post #19 of 143
12/30/08 at 10:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
This and The Wire are my two biggest Television Shames. The Wire DVD set will be snapped up via my tax refund, and someday I hope to get to Wing. I don't want my only television Sorkin exposure to be Studio 60.
Yeah, Im unshaming myself in reverse - The Wire will be experienced following my finishing of West Wing.
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post #20 of 143
12/31/08 at 1:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
"Three Men and Adena" begs to differ.
It's neck-and-neck between the two of them. My brain and objectivity says 'Adena' but my heart says 'Cathedrals.'
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post #21 of 143
12/31/08 at 5:40pm
The way you can tell TWW season 2 is brilliant is that "Two Cathedrals" doesn't blow all the other 'sodes out of the water. "Gunmen," "Noel," and "17 People" are up there, too.
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post #22 of 143
12/31/08 at 5:55pm
I love so much about the first four seasons of this show, and "Noel" is probably my favorite episode. It feels like a once-in-a-lifetime TV series. Good for you, Rain Dog. Keep watching.
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post #23 of 143
12/31/08 at 8:09pm
Season Two is one of those rare seasons of television where you not only had no bad episodes, you had no good episodes either. You only had very good to legendary episodes. When you're talking about a 22 episode season, that's a very rare thing for shows to be able to pull off. (Personally, I think Season Five of Buffy is one of the only others, but I'm in the minority there.)
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post #24 of 143
12/31/08 at 10:14pm
Thread Starter 
Just finished episode three of season two where Jeb gives the mother of all smackdowns to the biblically homophobic talkback bitch by running through the other things the bible outlaws and while I've seen that before and read things along those lines, nothing was quite as emotionally satisfying as watching Sheens Jeb run it down like that.

"Toby, that's how I beat him."

So golden.
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post #25 of 143
12/31/08 at 10:25pm
I understand that season 5 and 6 are seen as weak links but they are still well worth watching. But anyone who says that season seven is weak is lying to you. It's a great ride with some really great character moments and some terrific acting.

I also completely disagree with anyone who dislikes how Toby was treated in season seven. He's probably my favourite character on the show. It's the natural progression of his character. He's stubborn, opinionated and so convinced he's right about everything that his actions are perfectly in tune with what came before. Watch The Midterms and his reactions to white supremacist groups:

Quote:
C.J. Cregg: I think you're neglecting your responsibilities...
Toby Ziegler: That's crap.
C.J. Cregg: So you can behave like the director of the FBI.
Toby Ziegler: I'm waiting for the director of the FBI to behave that way. I'm waiting for the Justice Department to behave that way. I'm waiting for Congress to behave that way, and I'm waiting for the White House to behave that way.
C.J. Cregg: You want to lock up everybody with a white sheet?
Toby Ziegler: Yes, I do. Yes, I do. Who has a problem with that? Bring me anybody who has a problem with that. Yes, I do.
He's self righteous to the point of ignoring the consequences of his (and the White Houses) actions. It's a justified ending for his character arc. I love everything about it.
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post #26 of 143
1/1/09 at 4:16am
Toby may be self-righteous, but he would simply never betray the President. He'd took more than one bullet for the Administration, for things he didn't do, or for things he screwed up. Easy to extrapolate from there. That's where I still land on that.
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post #27 of 143
1/1/09 at 4:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
I also completely disagree with anyone who dislikes how Toby was treated in season seven.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Schiff
"I was sad for the show...I hated my storyline. Toby would never in 10 million years have betrayed the president in that fashion [in the seventh series, Toby is indicted for leaking classified information]. Even if he had, there would have been seven episodes' worth of fights before he did it... In the end, the only way I could make sense of my story was to come up with my own story - that Toby was covering for someone else. That, at least, made sense to me."
Just sayin'.
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post #28 of 143
1/1/09 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Wolcott View Post
Just sayin'.
Like I said, I'll argue with anyone who didn't like it. I understand that Schiff (and Rath) didn't like Toby betraying the president but up until that point we had seen a character who bordered on OCD in terms of doing what he felt was right. He was willing to disregard the constitution to "get" the people who shot at them, he used the president's name to get a proper funeral for a homeless vet amongst other questionable practices. His "betrayal" of the president always felt like a natural extension of that. Was it too far for the character? Maybe. But I like the arc that it gave him.

My problem with the idea that he was covering for someone is that it makes Toby a patsy. If he did betray the president then he's a man of convictions whose willing to cross a friend to do what he believes is right. If he's covering for someone then he's simply reacting to a situation. That's not the Toby we've seen.

I'm not saying my interpretation is the correct interopretation over Schiff's interpretation. I'm just saying I like mine a lot better.
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post #29 of 143
1/1/09 at 1:22pm
But Toby never outright advocated disregarding the Constitution. He was just expressing frustration over the seeming collective shrug everyone was giving to the fact that white supremacists had tried to kill Charlie. EVERYONE was screwed up over that, and this was part of them working those feelings out. I don't think it was leading to Toby eventually disregarding the Constitution to get these guys. It was a howl against the seeming impotence they all felt in dealing with what happened.

Look at how Toby reacted to being kept in the dark about Bartlet's MS and exactly who was in charge the night of the shooting and tell me that's a man who would leak government secrets to help out a family member.
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post #30 of 143
1/1/09 at 1:35pm
Spoilers:

C.J. displayed a much greater propensity for "betraying" the Administration during her term as press secretary. There are countless instances where she's leaked -- or thought about leaking -- information to a reporter when she disagreed with the party line, and she's also someone who acted rashly when she was passionate about something. You put this together with the fact that C.J. and Toby probably had a thing in the past that never got resolved, and if you don't buy that, he was certainly her closest friend in the West Wing. He was covering for her, and I think Schiff lays the groundwork in his performance to make that interpretation float.
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post #31 of 143
1/1/09 at 2:25pm
I will say that the one thing that I don't like on a consistent basis about the West Wing is Joshua Malina. I've never liked him as an actor, and I really don't like Will Bailey. The other actors they had in mind for that role -- Jon Cryer and Macauley Culkin among them -- would have done some interesting things.

Although West Wing was when I learned that Winnie Cooper was still hot.

Also, I always thought that one of the reasons Lowe walked is that he never got a Christmas episode, which basically became the Emmy Showcase episodes after Schiff won. The pretty-terrible Holy Night from season four should have been his, but nooo, we got the revelation that Toby's dad used to kill people. That, to me, was a bigger WTF than Leo at the end of season six.
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post #32 of 143
1/1/09 at 3:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Spoilers:

C.J. displayed a much greater propensity for "betraying" the Administration during her term as press secretary. There are countless instances where she's leaked -- or thought about leaking -- information to a reporter when she disagreed with the party line, and she's also someone who acted rashly when she was passionate about something. You put this together with the fact that C.J. and Toby probably had a thing in the past that never got resolved, and if you don't buy that, he was certainly her closest friend in the West Wing. He was covering for her, and I think Schiff lays the groundwork in his performance to make that interpretation float.
Dead on. We just watched the episode where C.J. interrupted Toby's meeting about the WWII memorial and tried to turn it into a debate on sending weapons to Qumar. She always struck me as far more likely to pursue an agenda than Toby.
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post #33 of 143
1/1/09 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
But Toby never outright advocated disregarding the Constitution. He was just expressing frustration over the seeming collective shrug everyone was giving to the fact that white supremacists had tried to kill Charlie. EVERYONE was screwed up over that, and this was part of them working those feelings out. I don't think it was leading to Toby eventually disregarding the Constitution to get these guys. It was a howl against the seeming impotence they all felt in dealing with what happened.

Look at how Toby reacted to being kept in the dark about Bartlet's MS and exactly who was in charge the night of the shooting and tell me that's a man who would leak government secrets to help out a family member.
I just see all of that as leading to the frustration that causes Toby to do what he does. All the things that get piled on top of him or all the things that he's left in the dark on lead to his belief that maybe it's better to do the right thing and consequences be damned.

I do agree with CJ being more likely but sometimes you don't go with the likeliest of candidates. (I do dislike her becoming Chief of Staff in the later seasons though)
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post #34 of 143
1/1/09 at 3:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
I will say that the one thing that I don't like on a consistent basis about the West Wing is Joshua Malina. I've never liked him as an actor, and I really don't like Will Bailey. The other actors they had in mind for that role -- Jon Cryer and Macauley Culkin among them -- would have done some interesting things.
You don't replace the charismatic Rob Lowe with vanilla Joshua Malina. Not only is he boring but (spoilers) his character arc gets so muddled when he sides with Bingo Bob that it ruins any good will he had.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Although West Wing was when I learned that Winnie Cooper was still hot.
Not only hot but really, really bright.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Also, I always thought that one of the reasons Lowe walked is that he never got a Christmas episode, which basically became the Emmy Showcase episodes after Schiff won. The pretty-terrible Holy Night from season four should have been his, but nooo, we got the revelation that Toby's dad used to kill people. That, to me, was a bigger WTF than Leo at the end of season six.
I always thought Lowe walked because he didn't want to stay on after Sorkin left.
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post #35 of 143
1/1/09 at 5:49pm
He left, as I recall, because he signed on under the impression that he was the main character and that Bartlett was a minor character and we all know what came of that.

I like Rath's interpretation of the Toby thing. I just hallucinated a scene in which is all but subtly acknowledged and for now on I'll live in a private universe where that is the case.
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post #36 of 143
1/1/09 at 5:57pm
Yeah, Lowe was getting first billing in the first season -- Sam was supposed to be the main character.
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post #37 of 143
1/1/09 at 8:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Yeah, Lowe was getting first billing in the first season -- Sam was supposed to be the main character.
On the commentary either Sorkin or Schlamme said that it was an ensemble and there were to be no leads. Now whether there were promises made to Lowe I have no idea but it seems that they always intended on ensemble even after Bartlett was added as a regular (which was after the pilot was shot but befire it was aired). Also, pretty sure that Lowe got first billing due to alphabet.
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post #38 of 143
1/1/09 at 8:16pm
BTW, just finished watching And It's Surely... loved CJ dressing down the general plus Larouquette is a god.

As much as I think Two Cathedrals is the best episode I still think Shibboleth is my favourite of season two. Or at least the most re-watchable. TC is so hard on the emotions.
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post #39 of 143
1/1/09 at 8:19pm
Well, Lowe comes first all the way into the third season while everyone else but Sheen is alphabetical.
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post #40 of 143
1/1/09 at 8:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
BTW, just finished watching And It's Surely... loved CJ dressing down the general plus Larouquette is a god.
This is where we're up to now, had absolutely no idea Laroquette was in this, so when he bursts in with the cricket bat screaming I literally pissed myself laughing and started to cheer - fucking loved Larroquette ever since Night Court.

"I should be on a beach now being handed drinks with little umbrellas in them!"

CJ dressing down the General was absolute slice-of-fried-gold


...also it's interesting to the Sorkin writing a sympathetic Republican in Ainsley Hayes, honestly Im still not sure if I like her (tho that may be me), but when Sam fires those two asshole Dem lawyers for being so utterly horrible to her and the episode ends with him, Toby, CJ and Josh in her office singing HMS Pinafore, that may be one of the more heart-warming episode ends so far.

Loving this show SO MUCH, but I think I may need to take a break for a week or so, we watched a half dozen eps yesterday and the missus is reaching a point where she's finding the politics of it a tad dense.

I'm happy to wait because I want this experience to last as long as possible.
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post #41 of 143
1/2/09 at 5:30am
One of the West Wing script books goes into why Lowe left, and yes, it did have to do with the show becoming less about Sam, more about the ensemble, and Lowe (rightfully so) feeling like he was being shafted in terms of good storylines. You look at something like "Somebody's Going To Emergency, Somebody's Going To Jail" or "Gailelo" or even "10,000 Airplanes" and you can see that Lowe was more than capable of bringing it.
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post #42 of 143
1/2/09 at 9:55am
I'd say the moment everyone falls in love with Ainsley Hayes is usually when these six words pop into the show:

"Blame It On The Bossa Nova".

On a different note, am I the only one who considers "24 Hours In America" to pretty much be West Wing: The Movie? 90 minutes of some of the craziest and best shit on the show, ever. "You mean we changed TIME ZONES?" and "I'm Toby Zeigler. I work at The White House." and the payoff that brings are great bits, up there with everything else, and then the twist it pulls on you at the end, and Toby's speech in the last couple of minutes about how we should be electing people that inspire us and move us... it's fucking amazing.
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post #43 of 143
1/2/09 at 10:20am
Oddly my favorite Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.
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post #44 of 143
1/2/09 at 10:28am
Best moment from 20 Hours is when the kids are like "How many babies did you guys kill today?"
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post #45 of 143
1/2/09 at 3:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Oddly my favorie Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.
Her obsession with food kills me. After delivering a smackdown to her Republican colleagues she asks if she can have a muffin.

Ainsley is a great character. A dyed in the wool Republican who can actually explain her beliefs and her reason for being against the Democrats in a calm and rational fashion. Though her line about Democrats not liking people who like guns was weak.
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post #46 of 143
1/5/09 at 2:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Also, I always thought that one of the reasons Lowe walked is that he never got a Christmas episode, which basically became the Emmy Showcase episodes after Schiff won. The pretty-terrible Holy Night from season four should have been his, but nooo, we got the revelation that Toby's dad used to kill people. That, to me, was a bigger WTF than Leo at the end of season six.
I usually despise holiday themed episodes, but always loved the Christmas eps on WW. Something about the way they brought in different music that I wouldn't give a second thought of listening to on a normal day, but was really lovely when tied into a Christmas episode. Always loved it.

I see some guys here had a thing for Ainsley, but something about Amy Gardner (Mary Louise Parker) just works for me....
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post #47 of 143
1/29/09 at 4:08am
Threadsurrection!

I've just been rewatching the Ziegler leak episodes. I hate them, it's a terrible way to handle the character. But here's my problem with Rath's version:
If Toby is covering for CJ, it sort of rescues Toby from an out of character betrayal, but if fucking ruins CJ, enough for me to not like her, and she's also one of my favorites. Sure, no way Toby betrays Bartlett like that, but also no way CJ lets Toby burn like that. I can see him falling on his sword for her, but I can't for a second see her letting him do it. I hate how Bartlett handles it all too.

Sure it's inherently better TV than Season 5, but man does it irritate! But hey, love the McCain vs Obama stuff. It's actually all very striking.
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post #48 of 143
1/29/09 at 4:38am
I've been re-watching the Sorkin years for about the 8th time and I'm at "18th & Potomac". I absolutely love the way that Donna lets Josh know that she is aware of the President's medical issues. I also kinda feel for Sam throughout this episode, he gets beaten around by C.J. and the First Lady, who both decide to take out their anger & frustration on the poor guy.
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post #49 of 143
1/29/09 at 4:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Oddly my favorite Ainsley moment is "Now I am going back down to the kitchen where I believe I may have seen a peach." Just something about the delivery gets me every time.
I always thought that the reason her & Sam took forever to bring the food back was because they secretly had something going on, that they were fooling around. His story about spilling the coffee a few times never seemed kosher to me.
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post #50 of 143
1/29/09 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Cameo View Post
On a different note, am I the only one who considers "24 Hours In America" to pretty much be West Wing: The Movie? 90 minutes of some of the craziest and best shit on the show, ever. "You mean we changed TIME ZONES?" and "I'm Toby Zeigler. I work at The White House." and the payoff that brings are great bits, up there with everything else, and then the twist it pulls on you at the end, and Toby's speech in the last couple of minutes about how we should be electing people that inspire us and move us... it's fucking amazing.
We just watched this last night, and this is spot on. If you hadn't watched any of the previous three seasons, you could watch this episode and know what the show's all about. Donna being asked how long Toby and Josh will need to get over the whole time zone thing followed by Toby attacking the guard rail with a branch while Josh storms down the road is just brilliant. And Charlie's smackdown on Andrew when he calls CJ a bitch is epic.
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