Confessions of a West Wing virgin... - Page 2

I find it hilarious how *spoilers* some people are actually trying to say Toby never leaked the the information about the military space shuttle leak solely because they never agreed with it. So he was covering for CJ, even though he walked into her office and said CJ...the..the leak...CJ...I got a lawyer...I got a lawyer...I did it. CJ is shocked and basically disgusted, cuts Toby off and tells him not to speak without council present. Everybody and their mother knows that within the shows previous background and history CJ would be the more likely person to leak serious information - didn't she leak something about women brutality in some foreign country once? But it doesn't change the fact that shows writers made him the leaker, even if Schiff has attempted to convince himself otherwise.

Toby saying he's the leaker doesn't mean he actually is.

Toby was the leaker. It was just a horrible storyline, which somehow topped the storyline that C.J. became Chief of Staff, which was laughable.

The only reason they made CJ Chief of Staff was to free up Josh to run the Santos campaign.

More *spoilers* Saying Toby wasn't the leaker is wishful thinking and being completely naive. It wasn't CJ. That is 100% guaranteed. She basically pleaded to Brock to reveal his source so he wouldn't have to go to jail. She was upset at Toby when he revealed he "did it". So I guess she was upset because he was going down for something she did? Completely ludicrous. So was it David, his astronaut brother, who Toby claimed would insist on sacrificing himself to protect a national security? I guess that was all a part of his big plan to divert attention away from him. I know there is a lot of fans that don't like what happened to Toby - I'm certainly in the upper echelon - but being delusional about what happened is unwarranted. I suppose a legion of West Wing fans could write a fan-flick Season 8 so they can retcon events to their liking. Maybe we can bring Mandy back!

Well, I just watched that Toby/CJ sequence like three days ago, and it's kind of surprising how easy it would be to make the argument that Toby is lying for her and CJ is just upset that he's doing it. She doesn't get pissed off, she starts to cry. I agree that the official version is Toby leaked, but the scene in question almost seems like they want to you to have it your way, especially if you're Richard Schiff. The truth is neither version is any good, with the Toby leaked version being slightly better, because while it's a bullshit plotline for Toby, it's an even worse plotline to have CJ let him do it.

While I agree with you, let's be fair. Even Richard Schiff had to make a story for himself aboutToby was covering for someone, because he felt the plotline wasn't something Toby would do otherwise. For some reason, I suppose he has thought more about Toby as a character than any of us.

Here's where I bring Rath's rage. I saw the famous Two Cathedral's the other day. Um, wow, that was..pretty bad.

He yelled at god in latin. It was ridiculous!

I think the cathedral scene was overblown self-important scenery-chewing that robbed the episode of any sense of genuine emotion. You can yell at him in any language you want, but yelling at him in latin stinks of a writer trying to be all pretentious rather than coming from a true emotional place. Who takes the time to translate their heartfelt rant about the cruelty of fate into a dead language if what they're meant to be conveying is true raw emotion?

It sucked. I hated it.

Maybe someone who speaks latin fairly fluently, is a devout Catholic, and knows his history well enough to know that the official language used by the Catholic Church prior to Vatican 2 was, in fact, latin?

He's old, erudite, and Catholic. He doesn't have to "translate," because he already knows these phrases about God and justice by heart. In Bartlet's mind, it would have been translating if he had put them into English, since that's not where they started and that's not how he learned them in school. And they were only a couple of phrases, not the whole rant.

What he said, also, he's cursing God in God's "own tongue" (as he understands it via his Catholicism). And as that and previous episodes have established, Bartlet chose Catholicsim and even went to Notre Dame with plans to enter the priesthood. So, in this rage and frustration, it makes sense that he would profane God in his own language. (Part of that comes from Sorkin's explanation, part of it is my own interpretation.)

That's how low he's sunk in that scene -- that's how low the events since the State of the Union have brought him. Here's this deeply devout man, this deeply faithful man, who we can believe's been praying to God for many nights, and the Almighty just keeps on piling it on (as he thinks so). Mrs. Landingham and the hurricane were just the last straw.

Yes, it's Sorkin, so yes, it's going to be a little grandiose and sweeping, as most Sorkin stuff is, but it does come from a genuine emotional place in terms of the character. You could argue that Sorkin is trying to show off a little bit, because he, you know, does that, but it's at least showing off within the parameters of this character. And in the history of the series, there are far better examples of Sorkin showing off just to show off. ("The streets of heaven are too crowded with angels tonight", which is his response to 9/11, is one that I love but is also more rife with that.)

Also, I've said this before, but again, the point of that scene isn't Bartlet, but God. It's not what Bartlet says, but what God doesn't. The whole second half of season two is setting up Bartlet to go to that low place, to force him to ask God, "isn't what I've done good enough?" and for God to say "no, it's not." Which why we have that great scene with Mrs. Landingham later in the episode, and why he eventually chooses to run again.

Thread bump!

I'm not able to read much of this thread yet, 'cause the husband & I just barely finished S1 & watched the S2 premiere (the "2 Gunmen" episodes) last night. Trying to remain relatively unspoiled.

I have to agree, what an incredible show. Just oozing w/intelligence, wit, and beauty, and packed with likeable, charismatic acting. My husband and I consider ourselves moderate Republicans, so we don't always agree with some of the issues, but it's all presented with such passion & clarity that it's still a joy to watch (and heck, to reconsider some of our own political stances once in a while).

Can't wait to see how it all plays out.

This may be a silly question, but: Mandy (Moira Kelly) from S1? What exactly happens to her? Is her disappearance ever explained, or is it just glossed over? Not that she was my favorite character or anything (I actually found her somewhat redundant): I just wondered if West Wing is the type of show to tie up all its "loose threads," or if it tends to leave certain plots dangling & forgotten.

One of the characteristics of the show is that it'll place a lot of emphasis on certain characters, and then they'll disappear, often with no explanation. Mandy is the first one that happened to; she just simply stopped working there, and Kelly never came back. This is why certain fans call the limbo that these appearing-reappearing characters exist in "Mandyville."

I always found her character to be pretty annoying, and Kelly wasn't the best at reciting Sorkin's dialogue. The ensemble definitely works better without her in it, I think.

I watched all of the seasons for the first time just recently (first time around I quit somewhere through S5), and the show definitely picked back up around the middle of S6 to the end. Have to say that I missed a lot of the lighter and/or heart warming moments in the later seasons. It almost felt like it was striving so hard to be "serious television", especially in S5.

Really dug the the opening sequence during the episode that beings at Leo's funeral. While the priest is talking, the camera is showing just about everyone who's ever been on the show. It was pretty cool to see a lot of those people come back just for that part.

Final unimportant note: in rewatching some of S1, the woman who plays Mallory (McGarry's daughter) is quite attractive. For some reason, I never really noticed that before...

I'm just about to finish Season 2. This show is simply amazing, I don't think there's ever been a drama that I can breeze through as effortlessly as I have the first two seasons of the West Wing.

I can see why they wrote off Mandy though it would've been nice to get some resolution with the character. I think they wrote a good character who just didn't quite gel with the rest of the cast. Especially considering they wrote an out for her near the end of season one. Either way Janel Maloney takes her spot on the show much better. Her and Whitford are just perfect together.

I just always presumed Moira Kelly ended up in the Black Lodge.

This is my next "project" after The Sopranos. Excited to finally tie together all the episodes from various seasons that I've caught on Bravo.

I broke down and bought the boxed set with my tax return. I'm about to finish season 5. Even with Sorkin gone I loved the episode where Bartlett stands up to the Speaker of the House. Such a great moment for him and Josh after everything they go through at the beginning of the season.

Halfway thru S2 and still loving the show. I agree that Janel Moloney is a terrific addition to the cast; she has a nice, light touch & she and Whitford have awesome chemistry together. My husband normally isn't a "blondes" guy, but he has a major crush on Donna!

Just a heads up, Steve Heisler at the Onion AV Club is starting an episode-by-episode viewing of the show.

It always bugged me that Sam wasn't in that scene. That was, for me, the biggest continuity glitch in the entire show (even including the CJ documentary episode) as it simply did not make sense. We were shown over and over again that Sam would lay his entire career on the line for Leo, and he can't make it to the funeral? Really? And it isn't just that we don't see him either, because if he was there then then whole next episode where Josh goes to California to get Sam wouldn't make sense. It was such a mess.

I did finish the series a few weeks ago. It was definitely a tough run to the finish line. You could tell in the last couple seasons that the show was running out of gas. But even then Matt Santos was a great character and the election was intense even though I knew who won.

As for Toby, I don't buy that he is covering up for anyone, least of all CJ. As Bartlett said to him when he found out Toby always liked to hold himself to a higher moral standard than Bartlett. It would make sense for Toby to be the leak, more so than CJ who would have a lot more to lose.

The other thing I didn't like about the last season was the way the cast was split up. I think it really did the show a disservice to get Josh, Toby and Leo out of the White House, the scenes there just seemed to lose a spark. I really didn't like how they seemed to drop Leo's counting down the days and accomplishing things before they get out of office storyline at the end of Season 6.

I wanted the Bartlett presidency to end with a last hurrah, it seemed to have more of a last gasp. I know it sounds like I'm being hard on it but it was really only the stuff on the Bartlett end of things. I just really missed the old team at a certain point. And I'd be lying if I didn't admit I balled my eyes out during the scenes when everyone is finding out about Leo's death and the funeral scene. I knew he died but it still hit me like a ton of bricks. He really was the heart and soul of the show.

Edit: Yaz, that really bothered me too. They could have had Sam in town for the funeral when Josh pitches joining up with Santos. Or they at least could have mentioned something about why he wasn't there at their later meeting.

Hope that gets better because the review of the pilot was awful.

So by fluke I noticed last month that Bravo is showing 2 episodes a day early in the morning. I hadn't seen any of the early stuff in such a long time so I decided to set my tivo to record them and catch up.

I had forgotten how good this fucking show was. Everything is just pitch perfect. I've also decided Josh might be my favorite carachter.

Season 2 just ended and it looks like they are taking a week off before picking up with the start of Season 3. Can't freakin wait.

However, I just can't bring myself to buy the whole series on DVD. I don't watch half of the stuff I have now. I fear spending the money would be a waste.

I've been watching the Bravo episodes here and there; they just finished up the first season. I love how I've seen these episodes probably three or four times each and I never get tired of catching up with these characters.

"At some point we're going to be talking about how they shot down a stealth fighter, right?"

Yeah, it's still such an easily accessable show.

I gave up on Bravo when they skipped out completly on Season 5 and 6. Yeah Season 5 was a stinker but I wanted to watch the resolution to the kidnapping and all of a sudden they skip from John Goodman saying "Your relieved Mr. President" to the campaign trail with Josh and Santos.

So I found a good deal on the complete series boxed set and picked up where they left off with the kidnapping.

I'm just about done with S5 now and I gotta say, it's a shame Rob Lowe left. The season would have been instantly better with him insted of Malina. Plus Sam leaving to work with the VP and essentially become a guest star would have carried alot more weight. Even the good stuff with the Speaker vs The President can't overcome how big of a mess the season was.

Fully agree about Rob Lowe. Would have taken Toby's "hey, you just got to the big league's snottiness" and raised it to something epic.

I think part of the problem with Malina was that they set him up as this fantastically talented writer without hearing any of the great things he wrote. Kind of like watching the "brilliant" Studio 60 show within the show which was never ever funny.

That and Molina did very little with the character, which could be in part that he's Sorkin's boy and they didn't feel like giving him much or that he didn't feel like giving much to the people that bounced Sorkin.

Either way, he was pretty much a nothing character and that he got with Mary McCormack's character was sucky.

Oh, by the way, massive second to the Amy Gardner / Mary Louise Parker love.

The real problem was that his sudden shift from team player to Bingo Bob supporter to team player again was so poorly handled that came off as wishy-washy rather than a believer.

I just think he was weak throughout, but yes the transition didn't help things either.

The husband & I recently finished TWW Season 5, and I have to admit, I'm not entirely getting where all the hate is coming from. Granted it's definitely a step down from earlier seasons, but it's not a HUGE drop-off in quality (ie Gilmore Girls S7, which was a show in a similar situation as West Wing in that it lost its creators).

S5 feels to me more like the producers trying to take the show in some new directions, some of which worked & some of which didn't. There were several good individual episodes (I enjoyed Access, Separation of Powers/Shutdown, The Supremes, & a few others), but they were a case of the parts being superior to the whole. The Gaza arc at the end of the season felt a bit undercooked to me; it wasn't much of a cliffhanger.

I have to agree on Malina. He is quite a black hole of charisma compared to Lowe, and we really missed Sam this season.

Despite my gripes, I still really enjoyed S5, though admittedly not as much as the previous 4. Are Seasons 6 & 7 more of the same, or does it become more cohesive? I'm curious as to anyone else's take on why S5 is considered the "worst."

I think Will was just a poorly concieved carachter to begin with. He was good as a one shot in the California Campaign. But his whole time in the WW seemed to be just a waste.

It does have some genuinly good stuff in it. And this I think is where it really became "Josh's Show". But why is it disliked...it's the step down in overall quality and it's just all over the place. It's a transition/rebuilding year.

Season 6 starts off a bit more of the same (including CJ getting the outta left field promotion) but it really rounds into form and Season 7 is just flat out excellent.

The Supremes is probably the best episode of Season 5. William Fichner tweaking Toby is pretty much the best thing ever, and he and Glenn Close are great together. That's also why the Shutdown arc works, because Steven Culp is so great as the slimy speaker of the House. I also like how that season ends. "It should have been you, Leo."

I tell you, I'm liking this alternate universe that teams up John Hoynes (keep the sex scandal part, but not enough to make him resign, you'd have to lose the Goodman plot but I'm sure you could come up with something juicy to make that play) and Sam challenging Josh and Santos for the nomination.

"Dr. Lee, there are fourteen people in the world who know this, including the Vice President, the Speaker of the House, and the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. You are about to become the fifteenth. Seven years ago, my husband was diagnosed with a relapsing-remitting course of M.S. When all this is over, tell the press, don't tell the press, it's entirely up to you."

I love Stockard Channing.

I dunno. I think the Goodman thing was too good to ditch. You'd just have to make Bingo Bob a more likeable or sympathetic guy (but still someone they are stuck with) so that Sam would be willing to leave.

2 more things to hate about season 5...the Presidental Funeral episode and Killing off Admiral Fitzwallace.

Agreed. This is such a stand-out episode. Just stellar. And Willy Fichner to boot! His speech on the justice writing the dissent "who's time has not yet come"...brilliant.

And Toby: "He's arguing against DoMA and she's defending him. And apparently they're as thick as thieves. And fans of chain-yanking." Love it.

The little bit between Fichner and Charlie right before the presser was pretty good too.

The campaign parts of Season 6 are great. The aspects of the show regarding the workings of the West Wing are awful. Season 7 there are only a few episodes that are white house centric and they sorta suck.

The end of Shutdown works, but early parts with Josh getting benched for Angela Barrett who goes NOWHERE were wheel spinning while the show tried to figure out where it was going.

The Supremes is very well acted, but it's exactly cuts against Bartlet being Bartlet.

The Presidential Funeral episode gave us James Cromwell as Fake Jimmy Carter, and I think that is worth the price of viewing alone. Also, lol they killed off Fake Reagan and didn't even give him decent screentime. I also like Toby's speech about the men who rewrote the map in that episode. Megaburn!

Cromwell as an ex POTUS was good. But I still saw it as a weak episode, especially when they brought Goodman back. He went out before on such a perfect note.

Just finished part 1 of the Gaza episode before work, Josh trying to keep from throwing up while the Doc is telling him what they did to Donna is great stuff.

Finished S5 today. Totally forgot about it but Bartlet practicing the opening pitch with Charlie and Toby in the residence is fucking awesome.

I tried, I seriously tried.

I hadn't seen anything from s5 forward since the show went off the air. In fact, I had never seen the very first episodes of s5. And I figured, with some vague memories of Vinnick and Santos being worthwhile, that I'd keep on watching till the end in my current rewatch. I'm trying to watch episode 3 of s5 but I just can't. It's as if the body snatchers won between seasons and now I'm witnessing a world of pod people. Add the fact that I was kinda hesistant given how Toby was basically ruined, and Will Bailey thrown away, and Fitzwallace, and Charlie's newfound extra status.

Perhaps in the future I'll be a better man, and I'll give this a try again. But now, I just can't. Perhaps the key is not binge on the Sorkin years in a couple of weeks and then watch this and if I watch something else and start in s5, it'll feel different. But aragasdfasdh. I tried.

You gotta stick with it. It pays off pretty damn good in mid-late season 6 and all of season 7. The rough parts of 5 will just make you enjoy whats to come that much more.

And ruin Toby...I don't think they ruined Toby.

Yeah, I'm with you. People need to let that go. The end of season seven is so keeping in line with his character that it's not even funny.

Yeah, sorry, I don't buy it's keeping in line with his character.

I think post-Sorkin, the best parts of the West Wing where those involving new characters, Santos and Vinnick being the obvious examples, but I don't think they ever had a good handle on the original characters.

I dunno. Considering the team is pretty much gone, Josh with Santos, Donna and Will with the VP, Sam in cali and Leo a mere adviser. Coupled with CJ's promotion and his brothers death I think the motivation is there. Especially with more lives on the line.

I'm more forgiving for Season 5 because the Writers had the horrible task of quickly picking up the reigns when Sorkin was sacked (Totally of his own doing). It's no suprise they floundered there for a while.

I get that Schiff was unhappy with where the character was heading but I still think it's keeping in character. As Paul says above it's a different West Wing, Toby's pissed at the president about the MS and his self righteous stubborn streak could lead to what he did. The assumption seems to be that Toby wouldn't change loyalties given an extreme change in circumstances.

I always forget how astonishingly good Allison Janney is in season three of this show.

Not only that I think she's the most consistant carachter in the entire run. Even after the promotion.

And back to my previous hate of Will Bailey (i'm fully entrenched in season 6)...they really accelerated his asshole persona in the first episode with Josh and Santos in New Hampshire. However I did like the scene between him and Leo where he is explaing why he is sticking with Bingo Bob.