LOST --- Season 5 - Page 97

re: Tati's Why LOCKE
I get the feeling that we will know that answer once we know more about Silas, but I also think that the destiny/free will debate will go deeper into much more interesting grounds. That is to say, this ep made a point to show how the decisions of Sawyer and Juliet (and you might have any problems with them, but that's another thing) came from their memories, from who they were.

I suppose the same could be said for Ben and Locke. Silas needed persons that could be the guy that kills Jacob and the guy that is convinced he will be the leader. Widmore and Ellie don't seem to fit those roles, from what we know. And I guess part of the destiny/free will aspect of the show will go deeper to "are they destined" (in the sense of "are they forced") to act in the way their memories shaped them, or can they, for lack of a better and less new agey way to say it, "change".

Also, I'd like to point out that the fact that the question becomes "why Locke" is extremely appropriate, as that has been a pivotal question throughout the show.

The way I differentiate between Lost and BSG is that BSG's theme's are fairly complex but are not always used to the greatest effect, while Lost's themes are not very complex but they are often used to great dramatic effect (although I agree that's somewhat debatable as of late.)

Locke is, for all his gusto, a really gullible, confused, weak-willed person, with a spiritual bent, a massive inferiority complex, a need for purpose, and daddy issues to boot. He's like the perfect pawn. We also don't know how the Others typically select their leaders. We've never seen it. The fact that Locke is an easily manipulable outsider was probably important, you could probably never get anybody who was brought up through the normal ranks to do what he did through Locke.

The Why Locke? Question is not mainly referring as to WHY HIM! but more in line with "WHY NOW??".
I mean, he had thousands of years on the island, hundreds of people coming in that he could have killed and impersonate to get someone else to kill Jacob. But why now? Why only impersonating him?
That's what i meant.

And i know it's the narrative to close Locke's arc. But that's why i'm saying it makes little sense. The loophole. He could have used it hundreds of years ago.

He chose Locke because he needed Ben to kill Jacob. I'm pretty sure that whatever rule prevented Silas/Esau/MiB/Smokey/Titus Welliver (we really need to all agree on a name for this guy) from killing Jacob didn't allow for just any person to kill Jacob. If that were the case it probably wouldn't have been too hard to convince somebody on the Black Rock that Jacob needed to die for something. My guess is it has to be the Leader of the Others. Locke being dead, no other leader having been chosen, and Ben not being officially exiled means leadership reverted back to Ben (Alpert's 'Only the Leader gets an audience with Jacob, and there can only be one Leader at a time!' is pretty significant), and Ben's the only Other who could even consider turning against Jacob.

I'm not sure this is true, but have no way of argumenting why with the limited information we have. Guess we'll know.

edit:
I do agree with Fafhrd's post and I also suspect we'll get either an Alpert-centric episode that deals with how he chooses who he chooses, or something of the sort. Either Alpert has a protocol to decide who the leader will be, so as not to kill Jacob, which would imply Ben's mother appereance is Silas grooming Ben, a guy with an abusive father, to become the leader, or it had to be Ben because Ben happened to be the one that was shot by Sayid. But the lines between what part of the plan was caused by Silas and what by Jacob is beyond blurry, so maybe the whole "loophole" has to do with working within Jacob's plan to prove Silas wrong to kill Jacob, which means it depends specifically on the persons he brings and we can assume that perhaps none of them until John Locke were suitable. At the moment I'm interpreting the whole Eko thing as Silas considering him for the job and we know he wasn't suitable for it.

Another option is that the leader of the Others has to have the potential to kill Jacob but usually the choice not to, and since Jacob seems to be all about choice, it could be that's why he never met Ben first, so as to "prove" Silas wrong at that pivotal moment, except Silas seems to have been correct in thinking Ben would eventually kill Jacob. Maybe push comes to shove and in that same situation Widmore wouldn't have, or Eko wouldn't have, or Ellie, but Ben definitely did and, it seems to me, for reasons so deeply ingrained into the fabric of his character that makes him significant enough to wait for him.

And for what we know, Silas may have tried killing Jacob a million times before but only know was finally succesful.

As much as everyone seems to be geeking out about the implications of Jacob and his nemesis in this episode, I still think it's sad that the show doesn't feel like LOST anymore. It's entertaining, but doesn't really resonate the way it used to do. It just feels like I'm watching an outline in which x, y, and z needs to happen, and the characters are just chess pieces that the creators are moving around from episode to episode. The burden seems to be all on the actors to sell a lot of half-baked ideas -- with mixed results.

This season, it seemed like the only really great dramatic character stuff -- the stuff that made the show wonderful to watch in the beginning --was with Sawyer and Juliet. And that was basically limited to two episodes: "La Fleur" and the finale. Of course, the show wasn't without its humor, but that's basically what the character stuff was limited to this season -- funny, self-aware remarks.

I mean, there's gotta be something wrong when I don't give a shit what happens to the show's de facto protagonist, Jack Shepherd. I was never a big fan of him, but his character was always front and center and seemed to be an integral part of the show.

And really, what's the point of crafting all this time-traveling, quasi-supernatural mythology that will probably lead to a big mind-fuck ending if it all comes at the expense of the characters?

Hopefully, the final season will remedy this.

It is sad. They've gone into answers mode and the plot is driving the characters. For most of the time these people feel like they're just sort of along for a ride. I'm hoping and praying season 6 can give answers and cover some significant plot that evolves FROM THE CHARACTERS.

Well Frank was originally supposed to fly Oceanic 815. The pilot who filled in for him survived the crash but was killed by The Monster. Maybe if Lapidus actually flew the plane, he would not have been killed by the monster like his replacement because he has a purpose to serve.

Incorrect. When Locke tells Christian "Richard told me I have to die" after Christian told him to round the O6 up and take them to Eloise. Christian says after a slight pause "Well I suppose that's why they call it a sacrifice".

After re-visiting that scene, I am completely convinced Christian is just another Smokey apparition.

We have now seen Jacob on the island in his form he chooses to showcase to people all across the globe and the same form he's had at least since the Black Rock.

We've yet to see Titus Welliver again. Yet we have apparitions used by him(Locke), apparitions bullying others to do his will(Alex to Ben), and a smoke monster that judges others harshly similar to his outlook towards humans.

Why has he not shown his Black Rock era form like Jacob?

Edited for grammar and clarifications

Or maybe the monster was trying to kill Lapidus then...

I was thinking about Ilana and her storyline. She appears to be on Jacob's side, after seeing her flashback. She pretends to be a bounty hunter for The Economist.

I'm assuming The Economist worked for Widmore due to Ben putting Sayid to work killing Widmore's men.

Would I be off-base to surmise from all this that Widmore, Ilana and Jacob are on the same side? Or was Jacob and Ilana just using The Economist's death as a cover to apprehending Sayid?

Also, I'm not of the mind to think Ben and Widmore are picking sides with Titus Welliver and Jacob. They were in the same clan together, following the same beliefs. Ben just wanted Widmore to be exiled so could have more control. I think their war is personal, and not 'political' as Jacob's and Welliver's seems to be. On an epic scale.

I thought it was an amazing 2 parter, especially in the context of the season. They managed to somehow bring together most of the jumbled events that transpired this year, throw in some entertaining hardcore violence (let me tell you, I would not want to get in a bar fight with Matthew Fox), introduce new stuff that felt reasonably satisfying (Jacob and his buddy), while finishing up the Lost's Greatest Hits thread from earlier.

Locke in the box was not a shock at all to me. It didn't seem like it was supposed to be, either, considering that Locke was already the answer to a previous what's-in-the-box mystery.

It definitely isn't as simple as Locke or the Other Guy being the smoke monster. I see the monster more as a conduit, a medium, a pathway, a benign natural force. Other Guy either made a pact with it, or figured out how to harness it.

I also hope that New Locke isn't completely possessed, that he isn't just pretending to be Locke. That would seem to undermine the progress and evolution of the character this season. I can't believe that the journey of the real Locke (or, uh, Original Consciousness Locke) is over.

This episode actually had some nice CG shots. The whole team must have been working on this episode a few weeks, which explains that amazing submarine shot from last week's episode.

The episode overall raised the bar for the show's cinematic style and production value. Loads of great action shots. The actors, stunt team, choreographers, and visual people were all firing on all cylinders.

If I were to respond to certain other people displeasure with the direction of the show, I would say they are expecting things this show will never deliver. It has always been popcorn entertainment, first and foremost. Sometimes it delves into soap opera drama, sometimes surreal mystery, sometimes James Cameron action set pieces. The hook of the show is the way it blends them together (as if all these things belong together on the same Island) and relentlessly teases the viewer with suspense in a self aware manner. If I had to sum the show up in a phrase, I would call it the biggest monument to artificial suspense in modern entertainment.

I started realizing in Season 4 that the actual answers to these mysteries barely matter at all, I was having so much fun speculating. When everything comes together on the show (like The Incident, or Man Behind The Curtain), it lets slip just enough of a whisp of a tease of an answer while evoking an even bigger tease.

There really aren't going to be a whole lot of answers in season 6, I don't think. At this point, I wouldn't even want the show to end that way. I don't think they'll go as far as the ending of The Prisoner (full cast dance-along), but they will preserve a great deal of mystery. The supernatural stuff that has no conceivable concrete answer...well, there won't be an answer. Some evocative imagery to let you come to your own conclusions is the most I'm expecting, and I think they'll be able to deliver that.

Yeah, I remembered that line, it was the pause right before it that I was referring to. For a guy with all the answers, Christian seemed taken off-guard by Locke mentioning his own death.

The other dialogue in that scene is a bigger clue. Christian tells Locke that he was supposed to move the island. Locke responds that Ben said he had to do it. Christian responds, "Since when did listening to him ever get you anything worth a damn?"

If Locke had listened to Christian in the beginning, he'd have left the island, never bounced through time, never been told he had to die, and likely never have died. And Smokey's plan would have been shot to hell.

Your post is WRONG and you should feel bad.

Or maybe he said that so Locke would be more kick-ass and take-charge next time he saw Ben...prompting Ben to kill him because he realized that John might now be a threat to him.

Now that I think about it, maybe Jack should've fell down the shaft.

Has the guy ever made a correct decision? Ever since the "Stop pressing the button!" episode, every season finale seems to consist of Jack making some horrible choice that further ruins Lostie lives.

"One man's "magic" is another man's engineering. "Supernatural" is a null word.”


I don't know how one can conclusively say that everything boils down to "magic" or as the grand plan of two strict religious archetypes. The issues often raised by this show are usually constructed within a metaphysical framework that doesn't necessarily have to be linked to the "supernatural" as most of us define it. I'm not saying you're wrong with your concerns/conclusions (it could very well end up how you say and I agree it would be somewhat disappointing) but it's a little too early to jump in and proclaim with definitiveness that's how it's going to play out.


As to Jacob and his "counterpart" I have to say that it could be just a bigger extension of the science vs faith, reason vs. the irrational, fate vs free will, etc. The arguments themselves don't automatically make them Gods/Demons. Like Bill Murray said in Groundhog Day:

"Well maybe the *real* God uses tricks, you know? Maybe he's not omnipotent. He's just been around so long he knows everything."

So you think that two dudes - one seemingly evil, one seemingly good - who have been alive for hundreds of years, who have manipulated the lives of others throughout decades, if not centuries, who have powers beyond those of normal humans, who seem to have some connection to the ancient Egyptians... you don't think these guys are most likely supernatural?

Will the show SAY they're supernatural? Probably not. They'll probably do some 1950s scifi thing where Jacob says 'You wouldn't be able to understand it, even if I told you' and we can all scramble around pretending like maybe he's an extradimensional being. But it's magic.

And the problem with magic isn't that it's magic. Magic here is a way that storytelling gets fucked. It's a lazy way out of everything.

How could they have explained what's happening on Lost without Supernatural or Time Travel elements at this point?

I was convinced Jacob was going to be inter dimensional. Take science and theory that we widely agree upon and use a little bit of hard science fiction to expand it. Obviously they seem to be going another way.

There's a lot of fan talk that any non-rational or fictional or magical explanation of the island's happenings is a completely unacceptable cop-out. So far, there are plausible scientific explanations for everything that's happening, so people have accepted what's going on. Does being called out by viewers (or the press) worry you?
DL: Well, first off, I would challenge that assertion, and say, how does Yemi walking out of the jungle, the deceased brother of Eko, have a scientific explanation? I guess you would argue that he doesn't walk out of the jungle, that this is all sort of happening in Eko's head, that it's a hallucination. Would that be the case, is that...

No, what I was thinking was the stuff that has been explained so far has a scientific explanation, whereas the other stuff, we're waiting, we don't really know.
DL: Right.
CC: I think the question kind of strikes right at the core of the central theme of the show, which is the notion of faith versus empiricism. Jack represents the empiricist camp, and Locke represents the faith camp, and, you know, who is right? Well, the show hasn't fully answered that question yet.
DL: Hopefully it won't feel like it's a cop out when the show does answer that question, because we never promised a show that was based entirely and grounded in science. It's nice that it's able to do that, but we reserve the right to go in the direction that the uber-plan directs us.

Every major action in the finale is taken by a normal person. Even in the case of Ben, where manipulation by a powerful entity takes place, the show makes it very clear that he still has a choice, and he makes it (killing this being you claim is "magic").

You're tossing around "magic" like a child throwing a tantrum. "Everything's magic! Every answer is magic! I don't care any more! WAAAAH!" There's nothing to argue against becuase you've been too lazy to make a specific point.

I think i read on here 17 eps left in one more season in 2010?

Please correct me if i am wrong.

If they pull that shit, I'll be so annoyed. The thing about lost is, i do enjoy it while its on, then as soon as it's over i feel quite cold. This wasn't always the case, but it's just slowly got to this point. As an audience member I've invested in these characters and I'm now being told that, actually, they're not really the main plot as interesting as their stories might have been to begin with, they literally might not as well be on the island, It feels like it could be anyone.

The real story, at least the one the writers seem interested in vaguely alluding to, I've never seen. This great epic battle between these two beings, That now, as the series limps to the end, seems to be more important. I get that the shows main hook is a mystery, but if it was always going to be this vague I think I'd rather have watched the splash, than the ripples in the pond, so I didn't feel so cheated when the characters, literally became toys to move around a giant board of plot.

The thing is, It's all about personal choice, regarding what you get from the show. I find myself stuck in an odd dilemma in that, i love character driven pieces, exploring their motivations and lives but i also love ancient Egyptian mythology. I wish they'd do one or the other REALLY well, rather than bodge jobbing both and leaving me to look up random shit on Wikipedia to know what kind of god has an crocodile's head and hating jack and Kate even more than i already do.

Ho hum, its nearly over with, no point complaining.

Jacob 2.0 (3.0?) Back to the Future Bearded Jacob? Jacob's Vessel? Jacob Skin? The Jacob that Lies Beneath? The Kermit D. Frog to Jacob's Jim Henson?

Virgin Sacrifice?

Why do people keep saying this? All of the characters are specifically important to this war, and we've been shown over and over that they have a choice. Every action they've taken has been their choice right down the line, and they've made some horrible ones.

Pure speculation, but he had to find the right candidate. Locke's flashback's have repeatedly showed us he was ripe to be manipulated. His experiences show that he has longed to feel important, to matter to someone, to be part of a family. I recall back to the undercover cop who told Locke that they picked him to infiltrate the marijuana commune because he fit the profile. Ellie was too loyal to Jacob, she wouldn't have succumbed to temptation. Eko, although very spiritual, refused to be remorseful for the life he had lead and thus wasn't a good candidate. Ben, himself, was extremely loyal to Jacob and it wasn't until fauxLocke planted in his mind that Jacob had forsaken him, coupled with Smokey's insistence that he do whatever John said, that Ben even contemplated killing Jacob. Anyone else would just be random people with no stake it in at all.

I prefer Man in Black (MiB). Its the one thing we know as fact, whereas all these other names are pure speculation.

Welcome to 3 months ago.

Man in Black is ok, but I'm not too fond of MiB... makes me think of Will Smith and tommy Lee Jones. Johnny Cash pops into my head too. I found Tropical Randall Flagg to be pretty amusing though. We probably won't settle on something until sometime in 2010 though. I wonder how Cuse and Lindeloff would refer to him at this point in time.

I know we're not done yet, but this has been a great ride with all you guys, and I'm looking forward to working our way through Season Six together when the time comes. All the teases and glimpses will start up before January, so we'll be on our way soon enough.

I think in Lostpedia they call him the "Adversary" which is kind of a cool placeholder name.

Well they refer to him as Samuel in the casting notes, so that's how I've been referring to him with people. Probably way off base with that.

I don't get the complaints about retconning Jacob's appearance in the cabin when it's quite clear that Jacob's not been at that cabin for a long time and the appearances have been the MiB

This has already been alluded to, I guess, but maybe the show is going the Prince of Darkness route where Jacob and Tropical Randall Flagg are supernatural only in the eyes of humanity, but extraterrestrials in reality. Personally, however, I think that would suck. I'd rather see them be deities of some sort.

Reading the last two days of posting has been fascinating. I can certainly understand the complaints raised by Dev, Diva and the rest. I even agree with much of their criticisms. And yet I find myself as enthralled and captivated by the show as ever. As much as I love shows like "Supernatural" or "Buffy", "Lost" remains the only show that completely consumes my attention while I watch. The only other show that has ever come close to that is "Deadwood".

I also posited that there could be a technological reason for the two. Anyone remember that video with the rabbits about the Casmir effect which essentially displaced and copied matter. There could have been an incident at some point in time where two Dharma scientist experimenting with the principle managed to disengage themselves from rational flows of time. The two men could be mortal, but displaced from time and reality itself. If your remember the rabbit video the two rabbits couldn’t touch in case they tore a hole in the universe, maybe the same principle exists with Samuel and Jacob.

So was Bernards cabin in 1977 the same one that became Jacobs cabin? I dont understand.

No. Bernard's hut was all Gilligan's Island what with the bamboo and palm fronds and all. Conversely, Jacob's cabin--although dillapidated--was all Swiss Family Robinson what with the planks and windows and all. Also, they're clearly on different parts of the Island.

I think there's an interesting parallel between the Fringe and Lost finales right now, especially regarding how they're being received here on the boards. Both shows had finales with ostensibly "cool" reveals: Lost not only finally revealed Jacob's identity, but they killed him off and nuked the Swan while piling on even more story mythology and hushed-tones biblical allusions. Fringe had the big Bell reveal, some major character reveals, and the admittedly surprising and fun WTC shot at the end. Fringe's mythology is much more self contained than Lost's, but it might be just as complex, and that's on top of the Where's Waldo minigame built into the show.

Reveals, mystery, and allusions are all fun. It's fun to be surprised, and it's also fun to talk about mysteries and how these allusions tie into the story. But if these things don't propel the story in interesting ways, they're just nerd window dressing. It seems like a lot of folks are appraising these shows by the window dressing, especially the "reveals". Days of Our Lives has awesome reveals.

Stripped of the reveals and mythology, Lost's S5 was a letdown. I don't care about Jacob. I've been told I'm supposed to care about him, and I might care about his role in the mythology, but as a character, how can anyone care about him? And Fringe - Jesus Christ, Fringe. Strip the reveals and mythology, and to a greater extent, the monsters and kooky bioweapons, and Fringe is nearing 90210 levels of retardedness.

Both of these shows, and their final episodes in particular, featured some superficially neat reveals, but weren't very good stories. Are reveals, allusions, and story mythology enough? Is that really all we need?

I don't think so. Horace built Jacob's cabin. Also, admittedly I was drunk during the finale, but Bernard's "cabin" was just a thatched hutch on the beach. it was made out of palm fronds and stuff. I'm not sure why anyone would confuse the two.

You watch a soap opera. Lolz.

Man, you really dislike Fringe, huh? It's all you talk about.

Edit: This was in reference to Trevor. These threads turn over fast.

Well I guess we know understand the white light in the plane! Jacob picked out his side to head to 77 and set off the nuke!

Though one thing that still baffles me is that John Locke always referred to the "White Light" yet he was taken by the black evil guy. Does this mean Jacob knew that Locke was going to be the "checkmate" on the board and try to manipulate him to his ends, only to lose him to the MIB?????

Jesus man Im so confused and Im loving it!

The problem right now is that the ineffective writing is letting the characters down. Did you really think "classic Lost!" at any character moment? Or believe in the rationale of their decisions?
(When Jack and Kate were discussing his plan? You feel nothing between the two. Or talking about Claire and Aaron? Such an important emotional beat tossed off and flubbed)
Did you think "of course, that makes sense!" when Julia flip-flopped so drastically and dramatically in the span of fifteen minutes because she has "daddy issues" and love hurts? If not for the fantastic acting giving the scene weight, the whole drama would've been funny.


All the supernatural BS and time-travel hooey wouldn't be such a drag if the show still "got" its characters. That's the shame of the show. (Agree even back-to-nature, hippie-dippy Rose and Bernard felt more like a nod or bone to the fans than logical conclusion)

So do you!

I like the Adversary. It has a nice, ominous ring to it.

I also really like this, except that we saw nobody that ever looked like The Adversary or Jacob at Dharma during our time there. Unless these two came in late once the Orchid was fully built.

Last night "The Cost of Living" was on, and yeah, dead Yemi is DEFINITELY Tropical Randall Flagg. That theory some of you had where he was trying out Eko for Locke's roll, only to find him not so easy to manipulate, might be right.

When this show is over, and if the creators have succeeded, it's gonna be really satisfying to go back and look and see that hey, they DID plan things all along. Or not.

My memory is fuzzy. Was the station where the time travel experiments (I guess the Orchid?) built in '77? If not, wouldn't it be neat if Chang only started experimenting with time travel because he had met his future son and knew it was possible?

I think it's neat.

You're memory must be more than fuzzy. We see the construction of the The Orchard in both the season premiere and the last few episodes of this season. Not to mention clips of Daniel talking to Chang in The Orchard just about every episode during the "last time on Lost" montage.