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Cocksucker

post #1 of 104
Thread Starter 
When that video of me swearing at Alex Billington was up, reactionary dbags felt that my use of phrases like 'cocksucker' was homophobic. I've been thinking about this, and I really don't think 'cocksucker' is a homophobic term. When I use cocksucker, I use it as an alternative to asshole. IE:

Guy: Hey, that dude just got the last ticket for which we have been waiting on line for hours.

Me: That cocksucker!

It seems to me to be a term divorced of its actual meaning (like fuck. Ie, 'Fuck you' does not actually mean 'Intercourse with you.' And nobody thinks you're sex negative for calling someone a fucker). I'm curious how other people use cocksucker.
post #2 of 104
If you're Al Swearengen, you use it gloriously.

Agree it's no longer what it implies. But I thought people were more upset about derivations of the root word "faggot", which is a stickier proposition, I guess.
post #3 of 104
I use it pretty much the same way you do and I too just don't get the reactions. It's one thing to call someone a "fag" and another thing to call them a "cocksucker". You're just taking it too literally in the latter case.

Actually I'm going to start using your explanation. That's a better way to put it instead of fumbling around it the way I usually do.
post #4 of 104
Thread Starter 
Faggotry? That's a great term. Anybody who has a problem with that is an even bigger dbag than I first thought.
post #5 of 104
Is it okay for kids to say something is "gay" when they mean bad, wrong or weird?

ETA: I'm not making judgment either way. Just wondering how others feel and is there a difference?
post #6 of 104
Thread Starter 
I actually have a huge problem with people who get hung up on language in these cases. They're probably simpering fucktards.
post #7 of 104
Quote:
Faggotry? That's a great term.
Yeah, I'm a fan. As I mentioned in the other thread, I think Kids in the Hall might have invented it (subway sketch, gay caped vigilante stops a hate crime with a lecture about gay stereotypes. Scott Thompson as a thug - "Hey, you sure know a lot about faggotry...").

I'm against making words into boogeymen in general.
post #8 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan S~ View Post
Is it okay for kids to say something is "gay" when they mean bad, wrong or weird?

ETA: I'm not making judgment either way. Just wondering how others feel and is there a difference?
How do you feel about using the word lame, which is disparaging to crippled people?

There are certain people - the uninteresting, the uptight, the simpering - who get hung up on specificity of words and not contextuality and meaning. I've used the words gay AND straight as pejoratives in the past and will do so in the future. I've also called people crackers and peckerwoods. I've called people Jew Bastards and guineas. It's all about context and meaning.
post #9 of 104
gay men aren't the only ones who can suck cocks. you could have been referring to him as a woman, who is also a whore. (that's a two-fer!)

seriously though, you're right that it is in no way literal.
post #10 of 104
Thread Starter 
And by the way, I do feel like using the word 'faggot' in non-gay scenarios is actually a good way of taking the meaning away from the word. I actually get surprised when I hear faggot used to literally mean gay person these days. It sounds so old fashioned, like calling a black person a pickaninny.
post #11 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
How do you feel about using the word lame, which is disparaging to crippled people?
Lame isn't really used much in that context anymore, though, unless you're talking about horses.
post #12 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainZahn View Post
Lame isn't really used much in that context anymore, though, unless you're talking about horses.
I'm assuming because the word got used so much to mean anything that was wrong or bad or poor in quality. Language is fluid and meanings and usages change.
post #13 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
And by the way, I do feel like using the word 'faggot' in non-gay scenarios is actually a good way of taking the meaning away from the word. I actually get surprised when I hear faggot used to literally mean gay person these days.
Blacks still use it to mean gay. In Philly, anyway.
post #14 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
And by the way, I do feel like using the word 'faggot' in non-gay scenarios is actually a good way of taking the meaning away from the word. I actually get surprised when I hear faggot used to literally mean gay person these days. It sounds so old fashioned, like calling a black person a pickaninny.
I can't even remember the last time i heard someone unironically call a gay person a faggot. Right or wrong, I just think the meaning is changing. As in all things, context is king.
post #15 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Blacks still use it to mean gay. In Philly, anyway.
Yeah, it does seem to be more prevalent in hip hop/street culture where a premium is placed on masculinity. Good point.
post #16 of 104
oh, why do you care Devin?! You're above this, who cares what the dbags think! Cocksucker is just one of those words that have been so over used, any original meaning that it once had is mute.
post #17 of 104
The reactionaries like those mentioned are actually offended by the fact that humanity gets angry at each other and cusses...beyond why these words are said. I can imagine one disparaging nice folk and thinking them hypocritical for calling Neo-Nazis faggots. It's an ugly word, that's the point; the nice person in question is saying Neo-Nazis are despicable because they're Neo-Nazis, not that Neo-Nazis are despicable because they think they're like gay people.
post #18 of 104
I don't think I've ever heard the word cocksucker to mock a gay person. I've only heard it in the same way that "asshole" or "fucker" are used.
post #19 of 104
To me, faggot has a specific meaning in our culture when it's used as an insult. It doesn't have as long as a history as certain other slurs, but if you watch movies from the '60s like Valley of the Dolls and The Detective, it's there. That's why when someone like Isaiah Washington, who I have sympathy for, tries to say that he just meant "weak person" when he said it, it doesn't really wash. It irked me when you called Rath a "fag", Devin, partly because Rath is known for his sensitivity and for talking a lot about women's issues and feminism. Homophobia is often rooted in misogyny. Gay used as pejorative is also troubling to me because it's obviously rooted in the idea that gay people are weak and inferior.

Cocksucker doesn't really have the same affect on me, though.
post #20 of 104
Thread Starter 
I'd argue that the term doesn't refer to gays being weak or inferior but rather submissive. For straight men the horror of homosexuality isn't fucking another dude, it's being fucked by another dude. Being anally or orally penetrated is the issue - which is why guys can go to prison and fuck other guys and not feel 'gay' about it. As long as you're the one penetrating, it's okay.

I think that sensitivity in adults is a negative trait. And I think Rath talks about women's issues because he thinks it will get him pussy.
post #21 of 104
At risk of simpering, "faggot" and "nigger" pretty much strike the same chord in me emotionally. In either case, I'm not a member of the group in question, so I don't feel it's my place to be on the Language Reappropriation Committee for those words.

Words shouldn't be boogeymen, but I don't necessarily think someone is without grounds for offense when either are used. The context in which the speaker intends isn't the only context worth considering.

No doubt there's oversensitivity. I'm not losing sleep over it. But it's exactly why language is so fluid that it retreats from black-and-white value judgments over its acceptable use.
post #22 of 104
Thread Starter 
Straight white guilt is a bitch. Are you upset over my use of the word bitch?
post #23 of 104
Personally, I would never use "gay" or "faggot" to mean "bad," but that doesn't mean I instantly think you're a homophobe, Devin, when you do use them. In fact I know that you're not. Clearly context matters and so do the people involved.

But if I hear someone on the street use it, I can't be so sure. Especially when I'm in Indiana or Kentucky, as I usually am, where surely these issues are a bit different than they are in LA.

Although, back to the original post, "Cocksucker" is fine, meaningless, and far away from the rest of these, IMO.
post #24 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Straight white guilt is a bitch. Are you upset over my use of the word bitch?
Not especially. It's a fair point. But I'd argue you're a little niggardly with your compassion and empathy.

ETA: I don't think anyone is a homophobe just for saying the word "faggot," but neither do I think they're liberators of the English language. They're using the term for shock value predicated upon homophobia. `Blacks ostensibly reclaiming the word "nigger" has been a double edged sword, and I'm honestly curious why "faggot" would be any different--especially since nongays seem a lot more comfortable using it than nonblacks do "nigger."
post #25 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
Personally, I would never use "gay" or "faggot" to mean "bad," but that doesn't mean I instantly think you're a homophobe, Devin, when you do use them. In fact I know that you're not. Clearly context matters and so do the people involved.

But if I hear someone on the street use it, I can't be so sure. Especially when I'm in Indiana or Kentucky, as I usually am, where surely these issues are a bit different than they are in LA.

Although, back to the original post, "Cocksucker" is fine, meaningless, and far away from the rest of these, IMO.
Well, yeah, of course. Loaded language is loaded language. You shouldn't be surprised if usage of the phrase 'pigfucker' upset some people just like you should be surprised if a non-homophobic use of 'queer' upsets someone who doesn't know you. Basic social encounter rules.
post #26 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bendrix View Post
Not especially. It's a fair point. But I'd argue you're a little niggardly with your compassion and empathy.
But niggardly's root is not nigger. It's just a word that got simpering dbags in an uproar due to homophonic similarities. Which does not mean the words are gay for each other. Which does not mean they're not happy for each other.
post #27 of 104
I don't think the word cocksucker is in any way homophobic since gays ain't the only ones out there suckin cock. My girlfriend sucks cock and she can be a complete cocksucker sometimes. I can be a cocksucker every once in a while and have never once sucked a cock. But if I did start actually sucking cock I don't think it would make me any less of a cocksucker. .... does this even make sense?
post #28 of 104
I'd guess that everyone here knows when they're saying something off color, and what place it really is coming from within them. Going back and forth with "Is it okay to say this as opposed to this? And when I say this I mean this!" is useless. Just phrase things the way that you want to, but don't act surprised if someone at some point thinks you're an asshole because of it.
post #29 of 104
I stand corrected. I'll repost what I edited to add to that post in the hopes you'll respond:

I don't think anyone is a homophobe just for saying the word "faggot," but neither do I think they're liberators of the English language. They're using the term for shock value predicated upon homophobia. Blacks ostensibly reclaiming the word "nigger" has been a double edged sword, and I'm honestly curious why "faggot" would be any different--especially since nongays seem a lot more comfortable using it than nonblacks do "nigger."

So is there a difference between "faggot" and "nigger"? Do you think "nigger," when divorced from its context, is kosher as an ephitet?
post #30 of 104
"Cocksucker" and "faggot" both sound great. They're lovely words to aggressively spit out when someone's being a dick. They each sound a lot meatier than "dick" or "asshole" or something boring like that.
post #31 of 104
Old thread. Great story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky View Post
I had a shocking run in with the ‘N’ about five or six years ago, just before my younger brother was getting ready to graduate from high school. My parents planned to throw him a huge graduation party- since my Dad’s a high school teacher, a big chunk of the faculty were going to show up, and that’s already on top of the various hordes of friends and neighbors that were coming.

Our family trend was to wait until the day of a party to begin the massive task of cleaning the house and yard, and this event was to be no exception. The 1.5-acre lawn needed to be mowed and edged, the leaves raked, the pool cleaned, the floors mopped, the furniture dusted, and so forth. Since the house would end up filthy after the party anyway, it was a zero sum game. We were rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, and we knew it.

The ‘incident’ began innocently enough. I remember cleaning the pool and hearing my Dad yelling at my brother in the front yard: “What are you doing? You haven’t raked anything! There aren’t even any piles! What, are you just shuffling the leaves around?” Knowing my brother, this was likely. A half-hour later, I remember being in the living room, and watching my Dad explode into the house, his arms flailing, exasperated, turning to my Mom: “Fuck, Jesus, Fuck! I found him leaning on a tree and playing his Game Boy! I don’t know how to get this kid moving! We only have a few hours until people start showing up, and he won’t rake the goddamn leaves!” After a few minutes, I walked out into the front lawn and found my brother, rake in hand, staring at something in the trees above. “Dad is gonna destroy you if you don’t rake these leaves,” I said. He shrugged, and we began a ten minute conversation about Killer Instinct on the N64.

Our Dad eventually walked out onto the front porch and came toward us, quickly at first, then, as the realization that no raking had been done washed over him, slowly and deliberately. His lips pursed and fists clenched. For a moment, I thought I would finally get to see a beating. He stepped onto the bed of leaves, gesturing at them with outstretched hands the way one would gesture toward a dead baby or something, and, pointing at my brother, screamed with all of his power:

“NIIIGGERRR!”

The booming sound of temporary hatred for one’s son pierced the clouds above and engulfed the neighborhood. My brother dropped the rake, and we stood silently, mouths wide open, shocked at hearing him say what we’ve never heard him say before that, and what we’ve never heard him say since. I think it was the absolute worst possible word he could imagine at that given time, so in a way, it makes him kind of un-racist. Oh yeah, my brother’s white. I forgot to mention that everybody’s white in this story.
post #32 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Old thread. Great story.
That's fucking priceless.
post #33 of 104
You're not a homophobe for saying "faggot". They are words. What bothers me isn't so much the words but the fact young straight guys seem to have this fixation on their sexuality and making sure that anything outside being masculine is deemed gay or queer. It's just so fucking tired and boring.

As for cocksucker? Never came across that as a slam against gays. Except for maybe in The Wire.

Although would I say "Nigger" to someone? Only if I'm quoting a line from a movie that features it. Otherwise, I have no business to use it.
post #34 of 104
Who the fuck are these pearl-clutching hyperventilating nitwits who think "cocksucker" is homophobic?

Are they used to only getting fellatio from their dads?
post #35 of 104
Actually for the ones who are going apeshit about this. It's probably the other way around.
post #36 of 104
Cocksucker is used all of the time and has lost any punch as a homophobic slur. Faggot still retains it's sting though.

I wouldn't worry about it Devin, the people that were shocked (like me) were going by descriptions of the video. I don't think anybody ever accused you of actually being a homophobe. All of the evidence of your views on the gay community contradict anyone who would say otherwise.

Cocksucker is a great insult to throw. Maybe that's why it was used so liberally on Deadwood.

Faggotry sounds funny, but it's not a word I would personally use. And gay was used when I was in elementary school. I hated it as a substitution for lame then and I dislike it as much now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
As for cocksucker? Never came across that as a slam against gays. Except for maybe in The Wire.
They used a different term. Cocksuck. Leaving er off of the end. I always kind of got a chuckle out of that.
post #37 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
What bothers me isn't so much the words but the fact young straight guys seem to have this fixation on their sexuality and making sure that anything outside being masculine is deemed gay or queer. It's just so fucking tired and boring.
I'll agree with that. It's as if a man can't lose a game of Super Smash Bros these days without being told about how he got bent over/raped/buttfucked/etc.
post #38 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Who the fuck are these pearl-clutching hyperventilating nitwits who think "cocksucker" is homophobic?

Are they used to only getting fellatio from their dads?
You're a bit on the sensitive side, Jake.

Just tryin' to get pussy?
post #39 of 104
I'm not saying it can't be used and actually be funny. But when every fucking thing is either deemed "gay" or "faggy" or "up the ass" it's just lazy and shows just how much of a moron you are.
post #40 of 104
I've called people "crazy motherfuckers" before.

I didn't mean to imply the guy had mental problems, and had intercourse with his mommy.

Said dude did something silly, or dangerous, and I called him on it.
post #41 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Elvis View Post
You're a bit on the sensitive side, Jake.

Just tryin' to get pussy?
Dadpussy, yes.
post #42 of 104
The first time I called a woman a cocksucker, the word lost any homosexual ties for me.

Faggot though... I use it, and it doesn't really offend me, but I think it's kinda stretching it to say that it has become dissociated with homosexuality. Hell, unlike "gay", nobody was really using the word (at least in the US) before it was termed against homosexuals. Either way, I still believe context is king.

EDIT: Faggotry is a glorious term though. Right up there with cocksmanship.
post #43 of 104
I can't recall the last time I used the word "cocksucker", just doesn't come naturally to me, the word I mean. I tend to use the slightly more benign "jerkoff", but usually accompanied by the intensifier "fucking".
post #44 of 104
Remember that guy who claimed the term "black hole" was racist? Now that was some faggotry.
post #45 of 104
Vic Mackey is a cocksucker for a couple of reasons, neither of them because he's gay.
post #46 of 104
A lot of the terms mentioned are just slang words and not worth getting your knickers in a twist about.If anything its people over-reaction that causes a stigmata to the words.Its just the way the english language has evolved in day-to-day use,some people need to grow up and face that.I think people must have just lived sheltered lives if they take offense or they feel it makes them intellectually superior when they put their PC hats on and have a moan but it just makes them look foolish.

Look at "Bastard",do illigitimately born people go around crying at the usage of that word,it's lost context.Even going back 20 years ago to Junior School "gay" was used derogatively but also playfully,like how its used in Shaun of the Dead.Kids still do it now.

I've never called someone a cocksucker but then it's not a word that was used or often heard growing up but i can't see the relation between that word and homophobia?"going for a fag" is just having a cigarette for me but when i'm in the states it can draw funny looks?
I don't think us english do use cocksucker often,its more twat,wanker,cunt(i think the most aggressive swear word in the english language)prick etc......short and sweet but a lot of those terms are just names for sex organs?
post #47 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I'd argue that the term doesn't refer to gays being weak or inferior but rather submissive. For straight men the horror of homosexuality isn't fucking another dude, it's being fucked by another dude. Being anally or orally penetrated is the issue - which is why guys can go to prison and fuck other guys and not feel 'gay' about it. As long as you're the one penetrating, it's okay.
I think that's part of the equation, but I don't think that's all of it.


Quote:
I think that sensitivity in adults is a negative trait.
I don't think that having a problem with people using faggot and gay as insults is being especially sensitive, but maybe I'll be less sensitive about those things when I no longer feel like a second class citizen.
post #48 of 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
What bothers me isn't so much the words but the fact young straight guys seem to have this fixation on their sexuality and making sure that anything outside being masculine is deemed gay or queer. It's just so fucking tired and boring.
That's an awfully broad statement...

Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
For straight men the horror of homosexuality isn't fucking another dude, it's being fucked by another dude.
No, it's also fucking another guy.

Also - isn't prison rape more of a power-dominance thing than anything related to sexuality? I thought the act itself is merely a tool to gain control over the victim. The bitch, as it is. He'll second-guess himself and feel inadequate.
post #49 of 104
"Cocksucker" is great because it's so descriptive. It implies a specific action and paints a mental picture.
post #50 of 104
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainZahn View Post
I think that's part of the equation, but I don't think that's all of it.




I don't think that having a problem with people using faggot and gay as insults is being especially sensitive, but maybe I'll be less sensitive about those things when I no longer feel like a second class citizen.
I was referring to Rath's brand of sensitivity.
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