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The JAWS Thread: "Here's to swimmin' with bow-legged women!" - Page 3

post #101 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
I'm hard pressed to think of many films that I'm grateful to have sequels to. *Heresy alert* As much as I love The Empire Strikes Back, Star Wars as a standalone would have been just peachy with me.
I completely see where you're coming from, there are plenty of terrible sequels. After the first Jaws, Spielberg was quoted "making a sequel to anything is just a cheap carny trick". I guess Indy and dinosaur money made him reconsider that stance.
But trilogies are a different beast. You're talking about an overarching story that's meant to be split into separate films. But too often it's used for to label a franchise where there wasn't that intent and just ended having 3 in the series.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmus Configuration View Post
Perhaps instead of focusing on Brody dealing with the same scenario striking Amity Island, the series could have followed Hooper as he travelled around the world dealing with different shark problems.
I think you just found the premise for TV's Jaws: The Hooper Chronicles.
post #102 of 359
When I was a kid, before JAWS 2 came out, I imagined a sequel where Brody tried to stop a serial killer who was killing Amity beachgoers. Even when I was 7 I had the movie knowledge to understand that another series of shark attacks was ridiculous plotwise.
post #103 of 359
Was the serial killer making the murders look like shark attacks? Did he turn out to be Quint's son, trying to start an all-out Human/Shark War? Does Brody have to chart a boat from Quint Jr. so they can travel to the distant island where Hooper now runs a camp of mercenaries who worship him as a Shark God? Do they join uneasy forces to take down a radiated Cyber-Megalodon that's eaten half of the eastern seaboard?

Yes? Man, you should totally take over this franchise!
post #104 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmus Configuration View Post
Was the serial killer making the murders look like shark attacks?
...yes.
post #105 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
...yes.
Did he have the chainsaw skills of an ice sculptor?
post #106 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
He would then move the boat ever so slightly away from me and sort of look behind me as he started to excitedly yell, "don't look back, Joey! Just swim! Swim!" Fucking asshole.
What an asshole. Although... that's probably the most effective and quickest way to teach your child how to swim. Gonna try that out.

I got lots of love for Jaws II. Sure, it is implausible and ridiculous, but while it's missing the great banter between Hooper and Quint, it nicely ups the ante. "Look, this one eats Orcas for breakfast... and still it's hungry enough to eat countless of us".

I love Brody realizing what's up again, love the swarm scene and especially, the look of the shark. It didn't even look real back then, but it's acceptable in a way that you don't really see this as a real shark, but as a fantasy villain. I don't know... if it'd work as good if the shark was completely realistic. What do you think?

That's a major point why I'm against any type of remake or sequel. The shark would look like those in DBS... and while the one in the dry deck looked awesome, it just wouldn't feel right.
post #107 of 359
I think the only thing that could make someone love that film is childhood nostalgia. It is seriously not a good movie. At all.
post #108 of 359
The frequently mentioned DBS is a movie I have a hard time turning off when I come across it. How can you not love a movie with hyper-intelligent sharks that have not only apparently received degrees in engineering but also somehow snuck a look at the structural plans for the station they swim around?
Same with any of the Jaws sequels. The franchise is clearly about a family of hyper-developed sharks that come after their chosen prey one at a time like opponents in a kung-fu movie. So long story short, to hate Jaws 2 is to hate works of Bruce Lee.
post #109 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdrow View Post
Same with any of the Jaws sequels. The franchise is clearly about a family of hyper-developed sharks that come after their chosen prey one at a time like opponents in a kung-fu movie. So long story short, to hate Jaws 2 is to hate works of Bruce Lee.
As a Bruce Lee worshiper, I must demand that you retract that statement.

Although if the shark actually did perform kung fu, it could only help those movies. It certainly wouldn't hurt their verisimilitude.
post #110 of 359
Remember the rumors a few years ago about the the script to a Jurassic Park sequel (written by John Sayles if I do remember correctly) about a squad of genetically modified dinosaurs that were able to talk and use firearms? Now imagine a Jaws sequel that would have been like that. Badass ay?
post #111 of 359
I like to think of the Burt Young starring Blood Beach(1980) as the true sequel to Jaws.

I mean, the tag line basically advertised it as such...

"Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water - you can't get to it."

You just have to ignore the reveal of the giant penis fly trap and imagine it was Bruce's ghost sucking people under the sand all along.
post #112 of 359
I've never seen "Blood Beach" (although the trailers & poster always made me want to), but IIRC from seeing one of said posters, wasn't the tag line: "Where the water may be the safest place to be?"
post #113 of 359


According to IMDB, it had a a couple of different taglines. I always remembered the Jaws 2 riff.
post #114 of 359
Jaws didn't affect me in the way it did most people, that it made them scared of the ocean, but in Quint it did set me up with my number one role model for masculinity and so I wore long sideburns of various amounts of bushiness from around '94-'04 (when I got too lazy to shave at all). Sometimes it's my favourite film, other times it's (only) top five, but it is one of the few films I can watch no matter what mood I'm in and one of the few films I see as flawless. I have a soft spot for the ludicrousness of Jaws 2 also but I steer a wide course around the other sequels.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
Does anyone else giggle when the shark in Jaws is referred to as "Jaws"? As if that was the shark's name? That always cracks me up.
Since Quint would never giggle I haven't giggled since I was 7, but I absolutely do laugh heartily at that kind of "When Die Hard jumped out of the window" and "When that dude falls on Collateral's taxi" business. Boy do I laugh.
post #115 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucho View Post
Since Quint would never giggle I haven't giggled since I was 7, but I absolutely do laugh heartily at that kind of "When Die Hard jumped out of the window" and "When that dude falls on Collateral's taxi" business. Boy do I laugh.
"Would Mad Max give up? Would Braveheart give up? Would Payback give up?"
post #116 of 359
In fact, the novelizations of 2 and 4 kinda explain the whole point of "what? another shark in Amity?". In the original Jaws novel, the male shark happens to shortly have sex with a female. It disappears and the male is then doing his stuff, being blown up etc.

Now the shark that appears in part 2 is actually the female giving birth to the pup after an eleven month gestation period. The agonizing act of birth is also the reason why it goes on a rampage and attacks the boat.

There's no novel for part III but I think I remember that 4 features the now grown-up pup. There's even a reason how the shark happens to follow the Brodys to the Caribbean: a voodoo priest identifies the connection to the shark as some kind of biggest fear motive and therefore summons the creature to come.

Yeah, it still is major bullshit and it'll probably never ever happen that a Great White attacks a boat and a plane, but indeed there is some kind of internal logic to the series.

Anyone of you ever tried the JAWS videogame? Not the Jaws: The Revenge SNES one, the newer version. It's pretty damn fun on PC, as you can eat almost anything and recreate dozens of moments of the movies. There's even a role playing element to it, because you can skill and grow your shark. Heard the controls are ass on consoles, though.
post #117 of 359
I gotta excuse myself for doubleposting, but after revisiting J:TR this morning I spotted a common misbelief. There is an ongoing myth that Michael Caine is in fact completely dry after swimming to Ellen's boat, but... he's not.

evidence (click to see bigger):


Also, it's probably Mike's fault that the shark finally attacks the beach, the banana boat and thus nearly his own daughter: by throwing all the blood in the water he certainly made him stay. Any other way the shark would probably just gone away. (yeah I know, just sayin)

And what the fuck had Ellen in mind upon stealing the boat? She even killed the engine after seeing it. In case no one had came, would she just have stood there, waiting to be devoured? Great plan.
post #118 of 359
I don't think it counts as a double post anymore after a month passes between the two.

And as for the wet Caine, his clothes look pretty dry there even if his hair does look like he had a bad experience attempting a jheri curl.
post #119 of 359
Question: What kind of scientist is Matt Hooper? As a scientist he's supposed to be the voice of reason, right? And yet he serves basically the same purpose in the story as Dr. Loomis. He comes in, surveys the scene, and tells Brody that death has come to Amity.

I know that Benchley came to very much regret making the great white an icon of mindless killing (furthered by the success of the movie), and I've always found Hooper to be an interesting cog in that machine. I've never read the book so I don't know how he is characterized in it (although it sounds from this thread like he's kind of a dirtbag in the book), but in the movie he becomes just as one-track about killing the shark as Brody or Quint. He does provide a sort of scientific bedrock for why the shark might be especially dangerous to the swimmers (the scene where they discuss territoriality), but he never talks about studying it, or seems to profess any scientific curiosity about. He goes out on the hunt as another fisherman.

He's obviously there to help dispense some exposition, and I love the easy way Dreyfuss plays him, but watching some of the movie again the other night, I couldn't help but wonder again about all this.
post #120 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Banks is my hero View Post
Question: What kind of scientist is Matt Hooper? As a scientist he's supposed to be the voice of reason, right? And yet he serves basically the same purpose in the story as Dr. Loomis. He comes in, surveys the scene, and tells Brody that death has come to Amity.
It's out there, killing people. It's pretty rational, though unfortunate, that the shark has to die. Given the circumstances, it is reasonable to say that they do need to kill the shark. He's not a mad scientist.

It was mentioned, here maybe, that he's the one that brings tools to kill the beast in a way that will keep it intact for study.
post #121 of 359
Hooper isn't one of those 50s scientists that actually works against the heroes to preserve the specimen (Ash from ALIEN is an interesting example of that character). He's interested, sure, but not to the point that people should die. He'll happily study the corpse.

I know Benchley felt hugely guilty about the shark situation before he died (going so far as to write a non-fiction book about the beauty of sharks). I don't think he should have felt that way. JAWS is just a monster story, one in a long line of them before and after, and applying all that to the movie/book isn't fair. I do remember as a kid really grabbing every shark book I could after the movie came out and learning all about the ocean. I think JAWS was a hell of a window into marine biology and oceanography for a lot of people.
post #122 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
It's out there, killing people. It's pretty rational, though unfortunate, that the shark has to die. Given the circumstances, it is reasonable to say that they do need to kill the shark. He's not a mad scientist.
I agree that it's best for the town if the shark is captured and/or killed. It's obviously staked a claim to those waters, and it's not unreasonable for Hooper to realize the danger and hazard Brody and the rest about it. I've just always found it fascinating and a little curious that he himself is so gung ho about it. In my other post I talked about his lacking scientific curiosity about the shark - I think I spoke too soon. In the first chase sequence he's out there on the bow, giddy as a school boy and snapping pictures. I would have liked to see more of that, and it might have provided a better way to put him in conflict with Quint than rich boy vs working class hero.
post #123 of 359
It doesn't seem like Hooper is set on killing the shark until the second attack on the boat. Up to that point, he's begging Martin to get out on the bow so he can take pictures, he nearly gets his hands ripped off trying to attach the tracker to the barrels, the kinds of things a scientist would do to track and study the shark. Only when the shark has pretty much torn the boat to shreds and it's them or him does he tell Quint he's got stuff that'll kill it.

EDIT: And Banks made part of my point as I was writing it.
post #124 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
It doesn't seem like Hooper is set on killing the shark until the second attack on the boat. Up to that point, he's begging Martin to get out on the bow so he can take pictures, he nearly gets his hands ripped off trying to attach the tracker to the barrels, the kinds of things a scientist would do to track and study the shark. Only when the shark has pretty much torn the boat to shreds and it's them or him does he tell Quint he's got stuff that'll kill it.

EDIT: And Banks made part of my point as I was writing it.
Your overall point is well taken, which is that by the third act it becomes an issue of self-preservation. Talking it out is helping his stance in the first two acts seem much more "scientific" to me, although I'll always think his frenzied reaction after viewing Chrissy Watkins' remains is funny.
post #125 of 359
His reaction seems more about getting people out of the water than going out and killing the shark though.
post #126 of 359
I just saw Jaws in a real movie theater with an actual live audience. Fucking amazing. It's one thing to appreciate this movie for its craft, and another to see it really work.

It's an efficient audience-manipulating machine. A woman behind me screamed when Ben Gardner's head popped out of the boat. She screamed again when the shark surfaced after "Come down here and chum some of this shit".

I already loved the movie, but this was kind of a revelatory experience. It's a film that was expertly designed to work with an audience. Having only seen it at home on a TV was like having seen half the picture.

I really need to do this midnight movie thing more often.
post #127 of 359
The first is a classic. The second is a very solid sequel. The third is really bad, but tolerable due to the actors involved. The fourth is horrendously bad to the point where it will probably cause my death someday................although dying of laughter certainly isn't a bad way to go.


As for another sequel? I'm still waiting for Jaws In Space. "Infinite Space, Infinite Teeth." That's the one I want to see!
post #128 of 359
Just watched "Jaws 2" for the first time in years. Of course it's nowhere near the masterwork the original is. But I think it's fun to look at it as one of the first 'idiot teen slasher movies' to have a wide theatrical release. "Jaws 2" came out in Summer of '78. "Halloween" (which gets credit for starting the slasher craze) came out fall of '78. Well over an hour of "Jaws 2" is spent with the dingbat teens getting picked off one by one by an unstoppable, emotionless force of nature. Basically, I like "Jaws 2" the same way I like "Friday the 13th:
The Final Chapter".
post #129 of 359
That's an interesting take. Not quite enough to make me pick that film up again, but it's a cool thought.
post #130 of 359
Shark advisory for the Northeast

When I first heard this on the radio yesterday, my first thought was that this would've been a perfect tie-in for a 35th anniversary re-release!

Over the fourth of July, even. Someone get Hooper on the horn...
post #131 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by levrock View Post
Just watched "Jaws 2" for the first time in years. Of course it's nowhere near the masterwork the original is. But I think it's fun to look at it as one of the first 'idiot teen slasher movies' to have a wide theatrical release. "Jaws 2" came out in Summer of '78. "Halloween" (which gets credit for starting the slasher craze) came out fall of '78. Well over an hour of "Jaws 2" is spent with the dingbat teens getting picked off one by one by an unstoppable, emotionless force of nature. Basically, I like "Jaws 2" the same way I like "Friday the 13th:
The Final Chapter".
Jaws 2 gets a bad rap for not being Jaws, but then did it ever have a real chance of being that?

Taken on its own, it's rather well done, including an arguably superior score by Williams and some great moments of suspense.

The shot of [spoiler]the diver suddenly getting surprised by the shark, before surfacing too fast and getting the bends[/spoiler] always seems to make me jump, even though I know it's coming.
post #132 of 359
Just downloaded the Michael Small's score to Jaws: The Revenge. The only good thing that came from that movie.

I don't think any composer has replicated William's style quite the way Small has done here.
post #133 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
Jaws 2 gets a bad rap for not being Jaws, but then did it ever have a real chance of being that?

Taken on its own, it's rather well done, including an arguably superior score by Williams and some great moments of suspense.

The shot of [spoiler]the diver suddenly getting surprised by the shark, before surfacing too fast and getting the bends[/spoiler] always seems to make me jump, even though I know it's coming.
I agree on the score. It's fantastic, and definitely better than the first. I revisited Jaws 2 again last week, and honestly think it's a pretty good movie. Obviously not the first, but it's solid. I think the scene where Eddie gets eaten trying to swim back to the boat (and Tina) is always scary.
post #134 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black VW View Post
I agree on the score. It's fantastic, and definitely better than the first.
You're both insane. Having more action cues doesn't make it a better score.
post #135 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
Just downloaded the Michael Small's score to Jaws: The Revenge. The only good thing that came from that movie.

I don't think any composer has replicated William's style quite the way Small has done here.
You bought it right?...... right?
post #136 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
You're both insane. Having more action cues doesn't make it a better score.
This. Dear god, this!

That surprise shot with the diver is really good though and I do like all the business with the boats being lashed together. The book was really weird. A whole mafia executioner subplot thing going on.
post #137 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Black VW View Post
I think the scene where Eddie gets eaten trying to swim back to the boat (and Tina) is always scary.
The actress playing Tina sells the shit out of her freak out scene.

Jaws 2 is kind of the Predator 2 of the 70's. It ain't the first, but it's damn entertaining nonetheless.
post #138 of 359
Bah. I hate both of 'em. Most of the Rocky sequels can suck it too.
post #139 of 359
Greg, check the window! There may be children on your lawn!!!
post #140 of 359
I hated them in my twenties. That's because they're bad movies. I can only assume that the rest of you love them because you were children when you saw them. Which is a weak reason.
post #141 of 359
I haven't seen Jaws 2 in many years, so I can't comment. But, I like Predator 2 because it's awesome. Not out of nostalgia.
post #142 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
I hated them in my twenties. That's because they're bad movies. I can only assume that the rest of you love them because you were children when you saw them. Which is a weak reason.
Or, you know, differences in taste.
post #143 of 359
I'm convinced people like Predator 2 because it has so many actors they like in it. They're willing to forgive how bad it is because it has Glover, Busey and Paxton in it.
post #144 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I'm convinced people like Predator 2 because it has so many actors they like in it. They're willing to forgive how bad it is because it has Glover, Busey and Paxton in it.
Or it's just a fun movie.
post #145 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nardo View Post
The book was really weird. A whole mafia executioner subplot thing going on.
That mafia subplot is surpassingly bizarre and out of place. My only thought after reading it was that Benchley was trying to capture some Godfather zeitgeist. The "Ellen Brody bangs Matt Hooper" subplot is pretty terrible, too.
post #146 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
I can only assume that the rest of you love them because you were children when you saw them. Which is a weak reason.
Come on, Greg, this is priggish even for you. No one has to lean on nostalgia to say it'll never match the original but it's still a solid monster movie.

With regard to the score, it's hard to compare it to the original. The first film's score was Korngold meets Herrmann. The second was more Friedhofer meets Goldsmith. He was writing much darker, more aggressive music in that period. I love the way he approached it, as kind of a gothic fantasia for the deep. "Ballet for Divers" is particularly gorgeous. It's also much more abstract, which is why I think it tends to offer itself up for comparison more than the typical sequel score.

Also, I only recently realized that Ben Gardner is the fisherman who first greets Hooper on the dock. ("Say I hope you're not goin' out with those nuts, are ya?")
post #147 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I'm convinced people like Predator 2 because it has so many actors they like in it. They're willing to forgive how bad it is because it has Glover, Busey and Paxton in it.
This too. I mean, maybe the cast and the action alone are enough for some people. But my god, the screenplay is awful, never missing an opportunity to over-explain an obvious detail, as if the filmmakers are terrified of losing the slowbrains in the audience. The thing has almost no plot, and yet belabors every point in it. In addition, there's not a single character with an ounce of life to them. The cast can't climb above that. It's bad writing by any objective measure. And bad writing makes a bad movie.
post #148 of 359
100% agreement with Greg.
post #149 of 359
Jaws 2, Predator 2... I wouldn't make an argument for them being "good" but I certainly enjoy them. Not because of some goofy nostalgia or anything, they're just fun for what they are.

ETA: Haven't watched Jaws 2 in about 10 years, so maybe I wouldn't like it so much anymore. I'll watch it again soon, I guess.
post #150 of 359
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Bodhisattva View Post
That mafia subplot is surpassingly bizarre and out of place. My only thought after reading it was that Benchley was trying to capture some Godfather zeitgeist. The "Ellen Brody bangs Matt Hooper" subplot is pretty terrible, too.
Yeah, I'd have to put it down to being fashionable too. But if memory serves it wasn't actually Benchley who wrote the second book - Google shows "Hank Searles", but I'm drawing a blank on that name. Maybe Benchley had story input because I agree the Mrs Brody/Hooper fuck-fest was equally out of place (though it had plenty of gory details).

Predator 2:
I'd forgive it EVERYTHING if some props-maker hadn't had the cute idea to stick an Alien skull in the background of the spaceship scene. We may have been spared the whole AvP mess (Pete Briggs is a friend of a friend, so I've heard the story of how that concept was shat into the world). The game AvP2 would be the only sad loss, mainly because the Predator is barely in it.
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