"Straight Edge" - Opinions?

I was an abstainer 'til August last year. As I was into most anything remotely punk during my teens, adopting the straight-edge tag felt natural. Thus, I became the "straight-edge guy" in college, as much by others as my own desire. By the time I got to uni, any interest in the label had largely faded.

I think you're absolutely right about the positive intention going sour. Minor Threat and the manifesto they set out notably in the songs "Straight Edge" and "Out of Step (with the world)" were always my template, at the time. They never, as is often misunderstood, advocated a controlling "you can't do this or that" approach. It was all about restraint, not total abstinence. I've met only a few people who understood this. Everyone else has totally missed the point or twisted the label to suit their own ends (like the gangs you mention, etc.) This also has a lot to do with why I distanced myself from it.

I had no idea this existed, let alone mostly in America and/or Australia, and don't see how even the most audacious and ignorant gang member could attempt to defend his or her self on religious grounds. Another case of missing the point if they did, as far as I'm concerned. The irony of something that started off as an antidote to violent pseudo-macho crap turning into just that isn't lost on me.

I don't think I've heard this term since High School.

This movement seems to be mostly about reminding everyone you're part of it with t-shirts and bumper stickers.

I just don't have the self-discipline required to be straight-edge. Or the superiority complex a lot of straight-edgers seem to bear.

I never followed it. And frankly found the whole concept to be kind of silly. But if it keeps ya from abusing booze and drugs more power to ya.

What did annoy me was that this idea was I think the basis of the whole "harcore" movement (I saw this in American Hardcore) in which you did not "abuse" your body. This abuse did not include beating the shit out of each other which was fully apparent if not part of that whole scene. I just found it to be hyopcritical as hell.

Oh and the music was unintelligable shit.

That's the problem I have. A lot of them use it not as a way to feel better about themselves but as a way to fell better than everyone else.

It's funny as someone who really doesn't have the taste for booze or drugs I somewhat fall into this stuff. Although it'll be a cold day in hell before I give up steak.

Most people grow out of it when they're out of their teens.

Never knew of a religious connotation with it- over here in NYC it was always a punk thing. The straight edge kids were just against polluting their bodies with drugs, alcohol or sex.... till they finally grew up and realized how much fun those things were. I never had a problem with them since they were all really silly about it (X's on my hands! Stop smoking you're killing yourself!) but it was always amusing to me how none of them stuck with it. Really was more an anti-mainstream trend than anything. Although I knew a kid who got stupid straight edge tattoos that ended up becoming a heroin junkie. Oh, the hilarity.

Whoa whoa whoa. No sex? Fuck these people.

Copy that.
My experience with straight-edge was limited (I grew up in a small town) but the scene that we had was full of assholes. The kind of people who would become angry because you dared question their thought process. One guy (I guess you could call him the "leader") made me seriously hate Minor Threat for YEARS. He spent most of his time doing one of three things: practicing making X's on the back of his hands, extolling the virtues of not getting pussy and relishing in how much better he was than everyone else.

Ultimately there's nothing wrong with this sort of thing. It's just the desire on some of these people to shove their beliefs down someone else's throat is where it becomes a problem.

Minor Threat > Insane Clown Posse

You know, if you have to be a joiner.

My younger bro lives in Raleigh, NC, is VERY into the mountain biking scene. He has referred to some of his biking friends as "straight edge" but it seems to be a more low-key thing: no drinking, no drugs, excercise and eating well and communing with nature, very anti-corporate in all things, no specific religious undertones or overt "evangelism" to the cause.

As someone who was heavily into hardcore, part of the scene, traced it's history and has actually hung out with Ian Mackaye(the dude who came up with it) alot of perceptions are wrong.

Straight Edge is a hardcore punk thing. It's part of that culture. And it's an underground thing.

To the original poster, that doco is from 'hardline' dudes, that stuff doesn't really exist anymore and it was always minimal. And Straight Edge isn't just an American thing, i know a fair few edge dudes from Melbourne. Straight Edge is still big within the hardcore scene, especially in Europe, hardline however has died out. - if you want to know anything else pm me.

Straight Edge is alot of things to many people(generally those who just claim it or don't know much about it) but for the most part, it's a personal politic. A stand so to speak. Mainly against social values placed on things such as drinking, smoking, drugs, fucking/getting laid jock mentallity.

Straight Edge doesn't involve veganism/vegetarianism. Just many people adopt it because it seems natural and part of the ethics and attitudes within hardcore. The hardline stuff you can basically nail down to the band Earth Crisis. That and the more metal based music it influenced led to the Vegan Straight Edge culture which is still prevalent in Europe. However that doesn't mean they were all violent or would fight people who smoked or whatever.

EdHocken --

That was more original push moshing, and some saw drugs, drinking, smoking as abuse to their bodies and some still do but many get lost in the fact hardcore and this very ideal are based on protest aspects of punk and hardcore punk. The original dudes especially Minor Threat were against the nihilistic punk attitude of drinking and fucking stuff up and they said fuck that and the reason it took off was because the music was so badass, you'd assume that someone promoting such ideals would be some pansy Christian or something playing pussy rock, but then Ian Mackaye starts singing Filler and for 1980 that would of kicked people's asses. As for the music. It may not be your thing, but personally the best music that wasn't just rough raw attitude came after 85. That documentary 'American Hardcore' is pretty off in many places and modern hardcore kids have called the director out on it.

The moshing aswell is far more 'hardcore' nowadays too. That shit wasn't abuse back then. Anybody could go and bump into each other in the early 80's, it was the fights and the attitudes that came with the shows that were dangerous. Before hardcore became more underground and community based.

Alex Riviello - attitudes like this are also part of the reason why many kids stay edge. None of them stuck with it because most people are human and weak. I'm not edge but I recognize that fact. The X on their hands is just a symbol and there's nothing silly about it. It doesn't make sense in regards to the actual philosophy but this kind of attitude just proves that weak human mentallity of doing something positive is somehow lame.

Alot of Edge kids who i've met who don't drink or don't smoke because they want to be healthy have completely lost the point.

No one follows the no sex ideal, kind of like Christians where they will ignore some things to fit the fact they want to be christian but their version of christianity. It's not no sex whatsoever, some don't have sex unless in a relationship, but hell people do that in the real world all the time. but basically the idea was against 'fucking', the jock mentallity of getting laid and somehow getting laid was cool and made you cool, others look deeper and see this idea of satisfying human urges weak, which really, it is. I like sex though.

However you sound like the typical mainstream dude content in the world, who people in the underground scene just shake their heads at and go about their business.

I've seen it phrased as "no promiscuous sex", as in it's fine if you're in a committed relationship, but not fine to run around bedding random hook-ups.

I'm sure the opinions of the underground scene carry massive value out in the world.

See, I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt on a poor choice of words but you've illustrated my major failing with the "movement" This buying in that people who engage in activities that you don't agree with or partake in are somehow automatically "weak" This is what makes a philosophy with good intentions and merit into a haven for assholes..just like your local Police Department.

Jock? Howbout "human"? Are you implying that these values (drinking, smoking, drugs, fucking/getting) aren't ALSO a big part of the punk community? I would think that the straight edge percentage would be the minority, no?

Sid Vicious didn't die of mercury poisoning from too much sushi or a heart-attack while jogging.

So why the shit did I drink a Boddingtons then? That's why you like it. Because you don't have a "taste for booze". Bastard

Heaven forbid some of us try to get some pussy or cock around here.

This made me laugh pretty hard. Thank you botch.

I thought it was funny . And I like Boddington's. I just don't typically drink a whole lot or often. And frankly if I'm going to be in the UK next year. I need to up my intake.

Straight edge consists of too many damn rules. Who needs an ethos? Like Sid himself said: "You just pick a chord, go twang and you've got music" That's why I feel in love with the music in the first place; the simplicity, the rawness.

Exactly. I have friends who could be considered straight edge but don't label themselves as such. Just the same way I have vegan friends who don't make a big deal of it. It's a personal choice, not something to shout at people and tell them they're doing things wrong.

botch- I was big into hardcore growing up in the 90s and used to be the guy throwing spinkicks in the middle... not to hurt people, mind you. Everyone used to get their own space to do their own thing, it wasn't about that. So I know what the scene used to be like before it fell into itself and became a caricature. When people would come to shows just to start fights and hit other people for no reason. When you couldn't go to a show without a crew just in case you pushed up against someone who had 20 guys with him and started a brawl. I'm very familiar with the scene, trust me.

And yes, X on their hands was fucking stupid. If you have to shout out to everyone what you are and what your ideals are- you're weak and don't believe much in yourself. The always-ironic thing is that while most kids did it to be underground and hate on the mainstream they lumped themselves in with another group's ideals and morals and lost their identity that way instead.

It's not a positive thing, it was always a stupid movement. Do whatever the fuck you want... just don't preach about it.

*pats Alex on the back*


kudos.

If only it were okay for two men to kiss each other in our culture without feeling shame. Alex was the hammer and the thread was the nail and insert some other fucking cliche analegataphor..dude was right.

and i'm sure your opinions matter to them.

if you're going to be an ignorant immature asshole, then fuck right off.

This is an opinion from someone who was a hardcore kid, involved in straight edge and who has moved onto other things. Other kids don't think like this. I'm thinking misanthropically and it's a view from someone who sees things in hindsight, don't think edge kids think that somehow they are weak. I'm just saying that in general human nature, the need to have sex is at it's simplest-weak. I enjoy the weakness.

Straight Edge is part of Hardcore, an offshoot of punk. Pretty seperate nowadays. It started as a reaction against exactly what you're talking about.

Fuckin A'

Sex and desire aren't the same thing. I think you're confusing the two.

dude, things change, scene is very different now, you know hardcore was different in the 90's to the 80's, shits different now too. And it's pretty much commonplace that preaching is lame. Now it's pretty much accepted that it's a personal choice. And kids nowadays just X up because it's who they are, they don't preach it. People who go to shows where kids have X's know what it means. And even then from 2000 onwards, Xing up isn't as big as it used to be, people mainly take the personal choice just like you said they weren't.

And i don't see how it's not positive, more good has come out of it than bad. It's not perfect though, in the end the people are still human. But edge kids helping out drug addicts pick themselves up can't be all bad.

As far as I know I'm the only straight edge person on this board. Having had to defend myself on this "belief" my entire life I eagerly await any questions and onslaught of hatred.

I don't agree with that idea, and I don't mean that in a "I really like sex, so I'm going to make a case for it" sense. Having needs is not inherently "weakness." Humans need food, water, and oxygen, and we don't consider these weaknesses. But to remain psychologically healthy, humans also need socialization, which may not be as readily apparent. Sex is merely one form of this. As such, it's not any more a weakness than the need for any other sort of companionship.

Now, I think the real weakness connected with the things that straight-edgers avoid (liquor; drugs; sex; arguably meat, depending on who you talk to) has more to do with compulsion and, perhaps, a liberated reading of Kant's second maxim: "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, always at the same time as an end and never merely as a means to an end." Not a bad guideline, in general, I'd say. In other words, have sex with whomever you want, but don't treat the other person(s) as a piece of meat. It's a liberated reading, because some straight-edgers simply extend this maxim to include animals, as well.

Good God man, start breeding. We need more of you!

I don't usually gush but I'm gushing right now. You magnificent bastard, I'd read your book if you wrote one.

Augustine, I'd doubt many people here will shout you down for it because, well, this is the first I've heard of you, or anyone on the board, being a straight edge. Like the other Alex said, do what you want, and I applaud you for doing something you believe in, but it's something I can never do, but mostly, you're not being a dick about it and tossing in the fact you're straightedge into every conversation like you're one of the freakin' apostles. So for that, I thank you. And I'm wondering what brought you about to that way of looking at things?

I hope you don't think that the weak stuff i was talking about is related to staright edge, it isn't. That's just me, a misanthropic fuck who's out of hardcore. And Edge kids don't really follow the no sex idea, they mostly 'forget' about it. " In other words, have sex with whomever you want, but don't treat the other person(s) as a piece of meat." but that's standard ethics that most decent progressive people adopt, the original straight edge ideal was more about the get laid/frat boy ideal as being pretty stupid. Either way it's always mainly been about abstinance of drinking, drugs and cigarettes.

Nah, you're cool.

About the "weak" thing, I can see how it might apply to someone who specifically pledged to abstain and then failed. But for most of humanity, calling them weak for doing normal and/or necessary things is hard to justify.

I'm 30 and have considered myself straight edge since senior year in high school. So, it's been about 15 years. I guess it started when my best friend got heavily into drugs and started dealing. Suddenly my group of friends were drinking and smoking pot. I tried it a few times but it didn't appeal to me at all. At this time I was slowly being seen as the odd man and was rapidly losing my circle of friends. Anyhow I met some really nice straight edge kids at my job. I went to college and met some more straight edge kids and had some great times. I spent my college years going to shows, playing in bands, and having fun.

Of course being straight edge at 30 is different than being so at 20. I don't wear band tshirts anymore ( I wear a tie to work now). Nobody knows I'm straight edge unless they ask me to grab a beer and press the point when I say "no thanks". I love the stories that people tell me of the asshole s that preached to them or tried to fight them. I've never encountered anyone like that my entire time in or out of the "scene".

So I assume you've seen a few Integrity and Ringworm shows?

Yes in fact I saw the last "real" Integrity show at the original Peabody's Down Under. I was getting over mono and was informed by my doctor that I shouldn't get in the pit or I might rupture an organ (kidney?). The sad thing is, Integrity keeps reforming with a new line up every year or so. Now 2 of my friends, brothers, are in the band. I think at one time or another anyone who lived in Cleveland was in Integrity.

I heard I was in Integrity, and I've never been to Cleveland. Somehow I still thought Dwid was an asshole.

No, I got what you were saying. I just don't agree that "sex is, at its simplest - weak." I suppose there are ways in which you might be weak in not adhering to a principle you have about it. For instance, you might buy into Kant's categorical imperative, but can't keep yourself from taking advantage of people. Or it might even be the reverse - maybe you have some personal principle about only having meaningless sex without emotional connections, but you keep falling in love, anyway. Those might be considered weaknesses of a sort.

But liking sex, in and of itself, is not a weakness.

Yeah Dwid is a douche. Now I want to start a hardcore thread in the music forum. Maybe more than two of us will show up.

The whole sex issue was never a major tenant of straight edge with people I knew. It was always just no drinking, no smoking, no drugs. At the most it just meant refraining from one night stands which is pretty good advice in general. On the other hand I'd say straight edgers are some of the horniest people I've known. Abstaining from one vice probably means indulgence in others. I usually had a steady girlfriend so the issue didn't really affect me.

Also anyone who thinks sxe kids are super serious assholes should listen to Crucial Youth or Good Clean Fun and laugh your asses off.

I grew up with an alcoholic stepdad who used to like to punch me when he was drunk. because of this, I don't drink. I don't smoke because it doesn't appeal to me. Rather than explain all this to people when they push me about why I don't drink, I tell them I'm straight edge. The thing is, I'm not really into punk music. does this make me an asshole? I don't push my beliefs onto anyone and I only use the straight edge answer when people won't leave me the hell alone and let me enjoy whatever the hell I'm doing in peace.

I've never understood the "abuse" your body angle. I can understand abstaining from drugs, booze, smokes or junk food for some kind of benefit. If you really want to be in shape, or are worried about diseases or whatever, that's fine by me. And if you have some kind of religious belief that your body is a gift from God that should be kept as pristine as possible then I might roll my eyes, but more power to ya. I'm not going to spend my time evangelizing on behalf of Jager Bombs. But my body is not a temple, it's a shit and sperm factory that I can sometimes have fun with. As this movement doesn't seem to have an overtly religious basis, I'm wondering what the secular rationale for such a hardline against against physical "abuse" is.

Why do you have to validate anything with anyone, though? Can't you just say why you feel like you feel without saying you belong to some movement or something like that?

It's like the things your parents tell you growing up: if they don't let you be you, then they're really not your friends. Or: Who gives a shit what they think?

I know people who don't drink who still go out with friends who do drink and ... well, just don't drink. It's not necessary to ostracize yourself.

Yeah, I have these too (and I drink a lot). And like I said, there's nothing wrong with being healthy. But those concerns would not seem to dictate total abstinence to my mind.