The Disney Thread - Page 2

Hey, I'm a fan as well. I really thought, going into it that I'd hate it, but there's some great stuff on display. The comedy just clicked with me and the voice cast is pretty damn perfect (Spade, Kitt, and of course Warburton)

Someone in a similar Disney Appreciation thread years back made a great observation that the message Little Mermaid sends to girls is that if you just change who you are for that guy you have a crush on he'll love you.

I only saw this film once but I remember liking it quite a bit. I remember everyone roaring with laughter when Herc put on the lion robe (which was obviously SCAR from 'the Lion King').

A gorgeous movie that fails on almost every level for me is 'Pocahontas'. It's stunning to look at but utterly devoid of anything that grabs me. The plot is so warmed over from what really happened that it's hard to watch. The voice work is bland, and the songs are unremarkable.

That note Clopan hits on the final "Dame" in that song gives me chills every time. That whole song is a tour de force of storytelling.

There was a live stage version of this in the MGM Studios theme park that had such a rabid following people showed up just to protest when it was announced that it was closing. And it sure as hell looked like a dry run for a Broadway version.

Pocahontas is one movie where the whole "Disney Princess" requirement ended up shafting the plot. They also got too focused on shoehorning in cute animal sidekicks and magic into everything they did, to the point where it's probably their most confused movie. As a straight up animated historical epic it would've been great.

Another one that doesn't get much mention is Mulan. I liked how it ditched the aforementioned Disney Princess formula, and has some real kickass action scenes in it (and is probably their best looking film of the late 90s). Even the presence of Donny Osmand doesn't kill its coolness. Plus, Mr. Miyagi is the Emperor!

I've also come to really enjoy some of the lesser Disney films. I got the Adventures of Ichabod and Mr. Toad for my birthday and I love the shit out of the Disney version of the Legend of Sleepy Hollow. The Sword in the Stone with the absolutely fantastic wizards duel turned out to be ton of fun too.

I'll echo the love of the Little Mermaid. Kiss the Girl gets occassional play on my iPod.

Eddie Murphy's work in this kicks Shrek's Donkey square in the ass. Much better as Mushu.

I forgot about 'Mulan'. Miguel Ferrer and Eddie Murphy did some fantastic voice work on that film.

I'm glad that some of the rest of you liked 'the Emperor's New Groove'. It's an unjustly maligned film that has some of the funniest moments in any Disney film. Patrick Warburton needs to do more Disney work.

I'm still trying to figure out how they went so wrong with 'Robin Hood'. I find it to be tedious, unfunny, and totally devoid of any 'fun' factor. Is anyone a fan of this one?

Eddie Murphy in Mulan is basically Eddie Murphy in Shrek three years earlier and in a better film.

I reviewed Mulan a while back. It's quite good - and where else can you get a character who's sung by Donny Osmond and voiced by B.D. Wong?

Plus Sulu, Lo Pan, Mr. Takagi and Long Duk Dong!

I'll cop to enjoying the hell out of it. It's lacksidasical, sure, but I dig it. I do have an extreme hatred for the love song, though. So very obnoxious.

I dig it. It's got that lazy, relaxed quality that so many of the Bill Peet-ish Disney films of that era had - Jungle Book, Artistocats, Sword in the Stone...from the animation to the plots to the songs, they have this loosey-goosey vibe that's really charming to me.

It was this predilection for shoehorning in cute animal sidekicks that once led me to propose that my friends and I write a Disney-esque Beastmaster: The Musical, since the animal sidekicks are integral to the plot.

I found out later that Robot Chicken came up with a similar idea.

Mulan, though a good movie, is probably the height of oversidekickery. Mulan has her horse, a dragon, and a grasshopper in addition to three human stooges.

I think Home on the Range was the last 2-D film.

Dickson's correct.

And I'll be seeing Princess and the Frog in the theatre, despite it looking kind of 'meh' in the interesting-to-me department - if only because I REALLY want to see a return to hand-drawn, quality animation. The death of it is a goddamn travesty.

Not the best note to stop on. Not that Brother Bear would have been much better.

It's not the format, it's the stories. Brother Bear looked like a Lion King retread and Home on the Range just looked bad.

I think this right here is what turned me off from the movie. It's certainly not bad, and there's some fun action sequences but there were just too many wacky characters/sidekicks. However, I will say that at the end when Mushu reveals he has a giant rocket strapped to his back and says "Light me!" it makes me laugh every time. Just great delivery.

Also of note is that after watching this in school some years ago, my classmates and began a ritual of sorts. Every time we were told to get into groups or get to work, etc we would break into a chorus of "Make a Man Out of You"

"Let's get down to business. To defeat. The Huns...."

Grrrrrr.

The absence of anything resembling logic here is hurting my brain and angrifying me all at once.

It's like turning kids on to black and white films: maybe they just haven't seen the right one yet. 2D animation needs its own Young Frankenstein.

Time to put my kevlar vest on but here goes anyway....

Song of the South: I've heard about this movie for years. How it was basically the shame of the Disney company and that it would be locked up in the vault forever. Of course the imagination goes overboard on what horrible things are in there that would make Disney afraid of showing it in America. So with trepidation, I found a copy and watched it. Maybe I'm not as racially sensitive as most people but I didn't see anything overly offensive about it. Yeah there was some "sho do's" and "sho nuffs" in there as well as other gramatical flourishes but the character work in many ways was ahead of its time . I'm not saying it's politically correct but in the time it was made, it was probably the most racially sensitive movie out there. Also Uncle Remus is in many ways the wisest and most well rounded character in the film.

And we haven't even gotten to the animation which is brilliant on its own but the live action/animation interaction is freaking amazing. It holds up perfectly to this day in much the same way the first Jurassic Park does. Seeing the movie, I can understand why Disney won't release it in America as there are some outdated and politically incorrect depictions of African Americans but if Birth of a Nation can be released then this one should too.

And perfectly enough, these are exactly the 3 songs that I belt out in my car. I'll never be able to hit Clopin's goosepimple-rising last note, but I can sometimes hit Quasimodo's in "Out There." It's fun to try to sound like Tony Jay.

The one that came along at THE perfect time for me was The Lion King (Zimmer's score was so good that Shaolin Soccer ripped it off for its climax!). So that will always be the default favorite. But I still love The Little Mermaid (Keane's animation of Ariel's silent performance is amazing), Beauty & The Beast (Gaston is fun to sing as), and Aladdin.

I went to see Pocahontas merely based on the beautiful 'trailer' on the Lion King VHS, which was actually the full 'Colors of the Wind' sequence. SO disappointing. I never saw it again after that one time. Beautiful, but dull.

I was so disappointed, that I actually ended up skipping Hunchback and Hercules ("Somebody dial IXII!!" in the theater. Too bad, because I enjoyed those a lot on video. Mulan was great, but for some reason it always felt a little scaled back (except for the battle on the mountain), and I HATED the way it ended with a torrent of bad Asian jokes and a 98 Degrees song. I really liked Tarzan for being a Disney version of a Bruckheimer action flick. And I'll always love the opening and the 'Son of Man' montage.

After that, I skipped Disney for a while. But I loved Emperor's New Groove when I caught it on video. Such zany fun. I only really went to see Lilo & Stitch on a lark. I caught Atlantis (I remember nothing about it) on DVD and didn't even bother with Treasure Planet and Home on the Range. EDIT: Whoops... forgot about Brother Bear completely. Didn't see it.

Dinosaur. Ugh.

Big gap. Saw Meet the Robinsons in 3D. Don't remember much about it. Then I saw and enjoyed Bolt.

EDIT: I have a friend who works at a video game company making a The Princess & The Frog console game. She got to see a very rough version of the film and was ecstatic about it. She said she was in tears. Of course, she's just that kinda girl (she bawled uncontrollably after Peter Jackson's King Kong).

I think the other 2D film Disney is working on is an adaptation of Rapunzel. Glenn Keane was directing the last I heard, but I vaguely remember something about him needing a co-director or something.

So the big question about what kids these days think about 2D animation is, "Does it even matter if 2D animated movies are good again if kids won't even give them a chance?" I think the comparison to the way some people just can't stand watching a B&W movie fits. Even old movies, really. I have friends who just don't want to watch old stuff. And as of now, 2D is old stuff. Doesn't matter if it's good. Not until they watch it, at least. It's not supposed to be logical as it's completely based on irrational gut feelings.

So lackluster 2D product and the shiny-newness of CG got us into this, and unfortunately it's gonna take longer to get out of the rut than it took to fall into it. It's as Kirk Cameron wisely says, "You gotta circumvent their intellect! Hit the emotion!"

Hey, look! We're all bitches for Disney cartoons!

Hunchback is good. It's got some songs, and it's got some great design and voice work. Anything with the villain is aces, especially his death scene, where he rides his dick to hell. That's damn obvious symbolism for a kids film. It suffers by the requirements of the Disney formula, though. Although a Disney film, I submit, doesn't just rely on formula, it practically requires one, not unlike the Slasher films we've just been talking about. Wishing Hunchback had ended with death and loneliness is like wishing Raging Bull ended with a flying carpet and genies. They are first and foremost movies for families, and while Hunchback is clearly a story that has to end badly, the movie they made simply CANNOT end badly. They probably shouldn't have made it at all, truthfully, but they did and it's not bad.

Mulan is often overlooked. The last really good one?

Of those four great ones everyone loves, I actually do think Beauty and the Beast is the best. It's probably the best fairy tale adpatation they've done, and it benefits from having a really strong original story and a ton of excellent Disney additions. One of the best and least generic female leads, a brilliant villain (not only is he hilarious and hissable at the same time, he underlines the central theme of the story and subverts every generic Prince Charming that Disney's made in fifty years), great sidekick comic relief, no celebrity voices at all, terrific design. Great movie.

Nothing will top their first run

Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Pinocchio
Fantasia
Dumbo
Bambi

Beyond just the extemely distinctive, hand-crafted (insanely detailed!) style of this golden age, each film could legitimately be argued as the greatest animated film ever.

Each film.

In terms of emotionality, technical work, influence, etc...

Just an incredible achievement.

'Dumbo' and 'Bambi' always get me emotional. ALWAYS. For my money, those are probably the two best Disney cartoons.

So, Pinocchio: scariest movie ever for under 10 year-olds? Is there any debate on this?

Also, this thread needs more love for what I consider one of the best love stories on film: Lady & The Tramp. It's the best of Disney's "second-tier" titles by far.

I need to fill in my Disney gaps. Barring Pixar, I haven't seen any of their animated flicks since Hercules. Glad to see not all of them suck.

It took a while for Pinocchio to emerge in this thread, didn't it? I think it's still the studio's best balance of story, character, music and technical achievment. And does it ever spook them toddlers.

The first Disney dark age could be said to have started in the '50s, when vastly more creative energy was being devoted to the theme parks and live-action productions. It really kicks in with Walt's death: you can see the films collapse into a 'studio style' almost immediately, with less and less of the continuous innovation and reinvention that distinguish the early features. I feel that Robin Hood represents the nadir; it's the first time a Disney feature just has talking animals wall-to-wall, for no particular reason except that kids like talking animals.

Robin Hood has good music. Not the love song, but all the Roger Miller. And even though some of it's on autopilot, the animals are drawn wonderfully, and it has some nice macabre stuff, like the jail sing-a-long and the vultures. It is responsible for the Hamster Dance, though.

Also, Peter Ustinov as King John.

Ustinov's Prince John is probably the most entertaining Disney bad guy out there (note I said entertaining, not menacing). My friends and I will frequently shout "Hiss! Hiss! You're never around when I need you!" at each other in voicemails.

Hunchback had a production in Germany that was supposed to be a trial for a Broadway run. It's pretty good. All the songs are in german, but they do go back to the original ending of the book, I think. But Hunchback is so damn good, it makes me forgive Stephen Schwartz* for Pocahontas and Wicked.

Beauty and the Beast is my favorite, just because I had a long love-affair with that movie for years. Little Mermaid's a close second, although for personal reasons, I always find watching that movie a little sad b/c of the circumstances I saw it under for the first time. So it's bittersweet.

I wasn't nuts about Lion King when I saw it, but the Broadway musical of that is fucking spectacular. "He Lives in You" is a kick-ass number -- I almost wish they'd put that in a special edition instead of the lame "Morning Report."

And as flawed as it is, James Woods and "I Won't Say I'm in Love" are so goddamn good in Hercules that I still really like it. See also: Eddie Murphy and Miguel Ferrer**, Mulan. See also: Atlantis, which is their attempt to do an animated 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea. I really liked that one the first time I saw it, but it does kind of screw the pooch by overdoing the super duper mystical stuff. James Garner and a lot of the cast are clearly having fun with that, though.

The 2D/3D arguments should be interesting, since one of Lassiter's big things since taking over Disney animation is to bring back 2D animation in a big way -- The Princess and the Frog is from Musker/Clemens (I think), and is their return to 2D animation. I think Bolt might have been the last CGI feature not produced by Pixar by Disney for a while. (There's also the CGI but kind of 2D Rapunzel Unbraided, but I think that's still stuck in development or something). And if the animated sequences that bookended Enchanted are any kind of sign, the guys at the studio still got it -- boy, do they got it.***

*The man who wrote the single worst lyric in the modern Disney canon.

**I always though it was weird that they had Donny Osmond do the singing, since B.D. Wong's perfectly capable of handling himself when it comes to showtunes.

***Points deducted for making Idina Menzel look NOTHING like Idina Menzel.

You've told me this before Rath, but what was the worst lyric ever again?

"They're not like you and me, which means they must be eeeeeeeevil!" from Savages in Pocahontas.

As gorgeous as she is, I don't think her features would translate well into a 2D caricature. I recently had a discussion with a friend where we both mentioned that from the right angle Menzel can look gorgeous or like a witch. Disney princesses tend to have somewhat bland-ized features and Menzel isn't bland.

And I remember the DTV Lion King sequel using "He Lives In You" for its opening number. I remember that piece standing out from the rest of the substandard musical numbers in that sequel.

I mean, I agree with you re: Menzel, but it was still kind of disappointing. I understand that her most prominent and recognizable features are her huge schnozz and those lips and that translating those to an animated version is tricky, especially since you don't want to make her look like an ethnic sterotype, but it's like they didn't even try. Or maybe because they did such a fantastic job on the animated Amy Adams.

I love Enchanted, by the way. I don't care who knows it. The only thing that would make that movie better is if Isiah Whitlock had busted out a 'shieeeetttt' at some time during the movie.

Are any of the DTV "sequels" worth a watch? The only one I've seen is Mulan II, which is not horrible but it's pretty horrible. The lower budget really hurt the visuals, and there was a real lack of imagination in the story.

(I have to admit that the Eddie Murphy-alike in the Mushu role did a more-than-passable imitation.)

Sure. It's like they took the character model for Amy Adams' character and just colored her differently. Sub-zero and Scorpion! Never thought I'm compare Mortal Kombat to Disney...

EDIT: That was to Rath.

I have to admit I'm a little surprised to see that Lady & the Tramp has yet to be mentioned. For the longest time I claimed it as my favorite Disney movie. I've recently revisited The Little Mermaid so I'm not so quick to just give up the "favorite" title anymore, but still - I think it's a damn fine movie. And has one of my most favorite exchanges between two characters ever:

"Heeeey JOE! A Butch-a he says he wants two spaghetti especiales. Heavy on the meats-a ball-a."
"But Tony - dogs don't talk!"
"HEEEE'S-A TALKIN' TO MEEEEEE!"
"Okay okay - he's-a talkin to you. You da' boss-a."

I seem to remember liking Dan Castanella doing a pretty good, if different from Williams, genie in the Aladdin and the Return of Jafar, which was their first DTV sequel. The sequel to that, Aladdin and the Prince of Thieves, with John Rhys-Davies as Papa Aladdin, wasn't as great, but it did have this one joke I will always remember about 'chicken or sea bass.'

Ugh... I was in 6th grade when Return of Jafar came out. I was all excited. And then I watched it. I knew something was off. I yet to learn about DTV and animation, but the shift in quality was too obvious. TV animation all the way. And even before I knew who Dan Castanella was, I wondered, "Why does Genie sound like HOMER!?"

The quality of the animation improved significantly with Prince of Thieves, but it was still substandard. Robin Williams came back as the Genie, but the character had absolutely nothing to do in the story.

Now that you mention it, I did see both those Aladdin sequels as a kid. I remember that because of Prince of Thieves, Last Crusade, and Jedi, (all of which I saw around the same time) I thought there was some rule that the third film in a series always prominently featured the protagonist's father.

I really enjoyed the "That's How You Know" Central Park song in Enchanted. It faint hints of previous Disney songs. Especially "The Little Mermaid".