CHUD.com Community › Forums › ARTS & LITERATURE › Books and Magazines › George R. R. Martin addresses detractors on lateness of "A Dance With Dragons"...
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

George R. R. Martin addresses detractors on lateness of "A Dance With Dragons"... - Page 2

post #51 of 93
Someone should do that intentionally. Develop a fanbase, promise a series, then just turn into John Laroche and say "fuck fish" halfway through and start a whole new career. (Or keep writing books, just not those books.) It'd be a great experiment, maybe a great documentary.
post #52 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louris View Post
And that's the source of some of the annoyance at Martin, the fact that he doesn't seem to be making a "concerted effort" to get shit done.
I think you missed the point of my post. King's "making a concerted effort" clearly resulted in the last 3 DT novels being subpar. Is there really anybody out there who wouldn't rather have gotten 1 or 2 novels in the 10+ years since Wizard and Glass came out that were on par with that book, rather than the 3 that we got that completed the story? Maybe there are, but I'm not one of them.

Quote:
He's selling collectibles and attending furcons and eating Whoppers by the mitful. I get the fact that readers have no right to bitch at authors or have any expectations about their schedule, but I also understand how a reader can be annoyed as fuck when the book isn't coming about because the guy is jerking off. I would bet people would be a lot more understanding of delays if the guy gave the impression that he was going balls out to get it done and just having problems. Instead the impression he gives is that works a bit on his book if he has time after he's painted some miniatures, watched tentacle porn, ordered a pizza, read the mail, ordered more pizza, taken a shit, and written his daily blog post.
Geez, I can't imagine why he's not busting his ass to please fans like you.
post #53 of 93
Thread Starter 
Stross blogged some more about this yesterday:
http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog....html#comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Stross
Slacking
I am author: watch me goof off on the job!

Today I have done no writing of fiction whatsoever. Instead, shockingly, I went shopping with my wife. In a dastardly plot to deprive my fans of their rightful 0.5% of the next novel, we went to IKEA and bought a new bed. (Because the old one is pretty much broken.) And tomorrow, in a callous display of selfish work-shy negligence I shall assemble flat-pack furniture, break down the old bed — and then I shall go to sleep! And while I am sleeping, I will not be working at all!

In fact, over the next 24 hours I will be so lazy and uncaring for my fans' right to read my next novel that I really ought to fire myself. Except that I've declared Thursday and Friday to be an honorary weekend, and it's quite possible I'll be slaving over a hot keyboard all of Saturday and Sunday.

(Ahem.)

This is by way of adding a parenthetical footnote to my previous posting, namely to illustrate the fact that not only are novelists self-employed, but they work really weird hours. As another writer of my acquaintance explained it to me, many years ago: because writing is socially isolating — because we do it locked up alone in an office, as a solitary occupation, for months or years on end — we have to learn to fit our social lives in around that of our friends, who are far more likely to organize their time around institutions such as their employers and the schools their children attend. But by the same token, we don't need to work from 9am to 5pm, Monday to Friday, except for public holidays — we can work whenever we're driven to it. Being able to hit IKEA off-peak at 3pm on a Thursday is one of the perks of an otherwise reclusive occupation: and I can spend the 3pm Sunday rush hour in front of a word processor instead.

Incidentally, if you were wondering why authors blog ...

Being a novelist is an intensely socially isolating job. In fact, if you haven't done it, you might have difficulty comprehending just how weird the lifestyle is compared to any other occupation. We lock ourselves in an office for several hours a day, every day, and we don't interact with other people while we're working. In almost any other job, you deal with co-workers or members of the public and chat around the coffee station: but not if you're a novelist.

Blogs and social networking have, in the past decade, come along and given us a vital sanity-oriented pressure release valve. They occupy a much more important role in the life of the working novelist than might at first be apparent to someone with a regular job. They operate in effect as a substitute for the normal workplace social interaction: without which we tend to go a little bit crazy from pure isolation. (There's a reason alcoholism is an occupational disease among writers ...)

Obviously, there's an element of marketing and self-promotion involved in any public figure who runs a blog. But I don't believe that my blogging entirely pays for itself in book sales. Rather, it pays for itself by keeping me in contact with other people, by providing the equivalent of the office coffee station or drinks cooler, and the casual contact with co-workers and members of the public that most of us take for granted.

... Which ought to go some way towards explaining why some authors (including GRRM) respond very negatively indeed to suggestions that they stop posting to their blog, or stop posting about stuff that interests or entertains them outside of work. As Jo Walton put it, if you see your surgeon down at the supermarket checkout, do you chide them for not being up to their elbows in someone's abdominal cavity? Writers are human beings too: they are unlikely to work for more than 25% of their time (which, if you think about it, is 42 hours a week), and like everyone else, they need the human socialization of a real life. Blogging has become an essential part of it over the past few years. And if you expect an author — who is, by profession and instinct a communicator — to stop communicating by venting at the coffee station, you can expect push-back.
From the comments:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Stross
Spherical time: Fans != Readers.

Srsly.

Fans are a tiny subset of readers. Well, not necessarily tiny -- but likely less than 10%, possibly less than 1%.

The lower the sales, the higher the ratio of fans to casual readers. We have a technical term for this: we say books with high fan-to-reader ratios have "cult followings" or are "secret gems".

This is not a recommendation, as far as a marketing manager is concerned. And guess what? At many major publishers, the editors report to the marketing managers. (At those houses where they don't, they usually work hand-in-glove with them.) In fact, marketing usually have veto power over whether or not to buy any given book. Editors propose: but marketing managers dispose. Fear them: fear the mightly fist of Marketing displeasure!

What I, and GRRM, and every other writer of commercial fiction wants to do is to break out beyond the charmed circle of the serious fans and get to the casual readers who maybe buy two or three novels a year to read on the beach during their vacation. And it's not because we hate the fans -- we really don't; in fact, we are fans, we have sodding personal libraries stuffed with thousands of books by our favourite authors -- but because there are simply many, many more casual readers than true fans. Oodles of them. Orders of magnitude more of them. And while quality is good, quantity has a quality all of its own. It's sort of like a George Romero zombie movie, you know? The living: they're fans. Casual readers: the undead horde. Sure I'd rather spend my time with the charming, intelligent, can-sustain-a-pulse-and-do-not-hunger-for-my-brains movie heroes -- but frankly, if I'm doing business, give me zombies!

(/me removes tongue from cheek with aid of pliers, looks for a wound dressing to cover the hole.)
What more needs to be said, really?
post #54 of 93
I'm pretty fascinated by this. Fantasy fans see these things as product, huh, not art? Like you just want the new one, as if it comes off a factory line. You have no appreciation for the idea that writing isn't just a 9-5 cubicle job.
post #55 of 93
Again, there are so many other things to read. Why bother even giving a shit if this book comes out? We all know the glory days on this series are over. It's done. Pick up some Gordon Dahlquist.

EDIT: To Dev, in regards to this series, I think it pretty much is a product. I get that writing doesn't work like that, but this series and artistic integrity were never in the same room together, and the last book proved conclusively that any sort of creative fire that may have existed is snuffed.
post #56 of 93
I admit, I'd be totally miffed if Mark Rosewater took some extra time developing the next Magic: The Gathering expansion set.

edit: On second thought, maybe the fact that I know who Mark Rosewater is precludes me from making fun of anyone ever.
post #57 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I'm pretty fascinated by this. Fantasy fans see these things as product, huh, not art? Like you just want the new one, as if it comes off a factory line. You have no appreciation for the idea that writing isn't just a 9-5 cubicle job.
Quit trying to defend your fellow Whopper-eating, mail-reading tentacle porn lovers, Devin.

EDIT: In all seriousness, I love that "reading his mail" was meant as a criticism. "Just let that shit pile up and get back to work, asshole!"
post #58 of 93
This tentacle porn thing keeps getting brought up. Did he blog about it? Because if so, I'm slightly impressed.
post #59 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
Quit trying to defend your fellow Whopper-eating, mail-reading tentacle porn lovers, Devin.
Bearded ones, at that!
Seriously, I'm glad I can order my junk food books anonymously on the Internet these days, because it's goddamn embarassing to feel lumped in with the "fans" like those idiots with the "grrrm" blog that Dickson linked to on page one.
post #60 of 93
I quit on this series some time ago. As a reader, I'm pretty exclusively all about junk food, and I make no excuses. But there's really no excuse for any series of books to go past a third book (unless it's just about a character, like the Jack Reacher books, which I devour). Everything else is wankery.
post #61 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
Quit trying to defend your fellow Whopper-eating, mail-reading tentacle porn lovers, Devin.

EDIT: In all seriousness, I love that "reading his mail" was meant as a criticism. "Just let that shit pile up and get back to work, asshole!"
I love how me commenting that I understand how people can take shit like that the wrong way equals me personally feeling that way, too. Martin can write when he writes, and I won't think about it twice. However, I can understand how people get a little impatient when the guy gives the impression that he's not real interested in actual writing. Me understanding how people get impatient does not equal me being annoyed with it myself.
post #62 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I'm pretty fascinated by this. Fantasy fans see these things as product, huh, not art? Like you just want the new one, as if it comes off a factory line. You have no appreciation for the idea that writing isn't just a 9-5 cubicle job.
You're right to a degree, but it's not necessarily that black and white. It's certainly not a cubicle job, but in Martin's case he give the impression that it's not really a job at all, that it's barely something he spends time on. Whether that's accurate or not I don't know, but he certainly gives that impression, and I can understand how that comes across as kind of shitty to his readers. He doesn't owe them dick, but I get how it's irritating to see a guy and get the impression that he's just half-assing it.
post #63 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Louris View Post
Me understanding how people get impatient does not equal me being annoyed with it myself.
You'll forgive me if this:

Quote:
I also understand how a reader can be annoyed as fuck when the book isn't coming about because the guy is jerking off...Instead the impression he gives is that works a bit on his book if he has time after he's painted some miniatures, watched tentacle porn, ordered a pizza, read the mail, ordered more pizza, taken a shit, and written his daily blog post.
...doesn't exactly come across as a dispassionate appraisal of the anger of 'some other hypothetical fan who's definitely not me.'
post #64 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
You'll forgive me if this:



...doesn't exactly come across as a dispassionate appraisal of the anger of 'some other hypothetical fan who's definitely not me.'

That's the impression he gives. Sorry. It is. I'm not going to soften it up to be nice to the guy. He comes across as not giving a shit, and even if he does, it still -seems- that he doesn't, that he would rather do pretty much anything else than write. I also took a shot at how he handles anything revolving around sex, and that's because he comes across as creepy there, too.

I read all four books last year when I was laid up for a week after having gall bladder surgery, and I'll read the rest when they hit in paperback because I found them entertaining, and I thought he did some pretty impressive things, including killing off characters that seemed likely to live forever, and making me like someone written as a total piece of shit in Jaimie. The guys seems to have some talent, and I'll give him some cash whenever he gets around to getting a book written.

But none of that changes the fact that the impression he gives is that he isn't at all concerned with his writing, and I get how that could irk someone.

I should also mention that if I were in his shoes, I might well be doing the same damn thing. I'm lazy, and if I were to suddenly get enough money to do what I wanted in life without much financial worry I'd be pretty tempted to blow off writing book 5 to do the fun stuff I enjoy, too.
post #65 of 93
Lots of people are lazy. Tarantino is lazy. What makes this case different is the undeserved indignation of the fans.
post #66 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Kimbell View Post
Lots of people are lazy. Tarantino is lazy. What makes this case different is the undeserved indignation of the fans.
Not to stereotype, but I'd imagine on average diehard Martin fans are a bit more socially inept than diehard Tarantino fans, and their reactions are probably equally socially inept.

I'm pretty sure I've seen bitching online about Tarantino's productivity too, particular post-Jackie Brown and pre-Kill Bill. It's just that it came across as a bit less shrill since the people doing the bitching were probably a little less wierd than those writing Arya Stark rape fanfic.
post #67 of 93
In addition, while Tarantino may not be productive, he provides the benefit of telling an entire story. The viewer isn't left hanging for years and years. Here, readers are frustrated because they want to know what's going to happen to their favorite characters and they're being forced to wait for a very long time.
post #68 of 93
Frustration is understandable. But the level of vitriol is just sad.
post #69 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt M View Post
Frustration is understandable. But the level of vitriol is just sad.
Forget it, Jake, it's the internet.
post #70 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
Forget it, Jake, it's the internet.
And it's a fanbase that is probably a bit more likely to handle things poorly. That doesn't make it acceptable, mind you, but I don't think it's a coincidence you tend to see this kind of fringe reaction come from that particular segment of fandom.
post #71 of 93
I went from "oh man, hurry up" to "wow, this is talking a long time" to "forget it, there's a new Punisher movie out".
post #72 of 93
Yeah, I'm at a point where I'll probably wait for A Dance with Dragons in paperback, whereas previous entries were release day buys for me.
post #73 of 93
From Martin's most recent blog:

Quote:
The good news: finished a chapter today.

The bad news: it's one I've finished at least four times before.
I'll be playing Duke Nukem Forever before I read this damn book.
post #74 of 93
Well, I think we can all agree on one thing:
post #75 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
From Martin's most recent blog:



I'll be playing Duke Nukem Forever before I read this damn book.
Harper Lee will have a new book out before this one.
post #76 of 93
hahahaha who still gives a shit? I mean seriously, these books are not at all good enough to justify this kind of a delay.
post #77 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
JD Salinger will have a new book out before this one.
Fixed.

...too soon?
post #78 of 93
So much of this frustration and general back and forthing seems to come down essentially to the seeming need of books in the fantasy genre to be serialised rather than being stand alone stories. Seriously, It's that consistent need to stretch a story over 3, 5, 7 books and beyond that has kept the entire genre at arms length for me for the last 20 years or more (outside of His Dark Materials and re-reads of LOTR). I like a story that knows how it's going to end, I want to feel like I'm in the hands of a master artist/storyteller, not someone making shit up as they go along and milking my wallet in the process.

You don't hear Cormac McCarthy or Michael Chabons fans bitching at them like this.

I've just dipped my toe in serialised fantastical waters for the first time in years with a debut writer (Redicks Chatharand Chronicles), and while I'm really enjoying it right now, the first whiff that this is ending up in a Jordan/Martin-type direction I'm dropping them cold.

I refuse to feel like a sucker or a fool on behalf of a fantasy writer who either doesn't know where they're going or is cynically stretching their story out far longer than it needs to be.
post #79 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
Fixed.

...too soon?
Its not out of the realm of possibility, really.
post #80 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
So much of this frustration and general back and forthing seems to come down essentially to the seeming need of books in the fantasy genre to be serialised rather than being stand alone stories. Seriously, It's that consistent need to stretch a story over 3, 5, 7 books and beyond that has kept the entire genre at arms length for me for the last 20 years or more (outside of His Dark Materials and re-reads of LOTR). I like a story that knows how it's going to end, I want to feel like I'm in the hands of a master artist/storyteller, not someone making shit up as they go along and milking my wallet in the process.

You don't hear Cormac McCarthy or Michael Chabons fans bitching at them like this.

I've just dipped my toe in serialised fantastical waters for the first time in years with a debut writer (Redicks Chatharand Chronicles), and while I'm really enjoying it right now, the first whiff that this is ending up in a Jordan/Martin-type direction I'm dropping them cold.

I refuse to feel like a sucker or a fool on behalf of a fantasy writer who either doesn't know where they're going or is cynically stretching their story out far longer than it needs to be.
That's why I like Scott Lynch so much. So far, his two books have been a series, but they're stand-alone too.
post #81 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
That's why I like Scott Lynch so much. So far, his two books have been a series, but they're stand-alone too.
Thanks for the headsup - his books sound pretty good actually. Is he a decent writer to boot or does he just have good stories?
post #82 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Its not out of the realm of possibility, really.
there's a safety deposit box with a bunch of manuscripts waiting somewhere.
post #83 of 93
The Malazan Book of the Fallen series is much more complex than Martin's, and Erickson has gotten out a book a year since he's started.
post #84 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Thanks for the headsup - his books sound pretty good actually. Is he a decent writer to boot or does he just have good stories?
No, he's good. They're heist/con man novels and have very little fantasy cliche's in them. For example, there are hints that aliens built the culture. And instead of the usual England or Germany or Ireland that a lot of fantasy novels base their worlds on, Lynch's world is based on Italy.

Its good stuff, loads of fun, but I always thought Martin was a terrible writer.
post #85 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotai View Post
there's a safety deposit box with a bunch of manuscripts waiting somewhere.
http://www.sarahweinman.com/confessi...f-estates.html

I bet we'll see new Salinger work in print in the next 5 years.
post #86 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
No, he's good. They're heist/con man novels and have very little fantasy cliche's in them. For example, there are hints that aliens built the culture. And instead of the usual England or Germany or Ireland that a lot of fantasy novels base their worlds on, Lynch's world is based on Italy.

Its good stuff, loads of fun, but I always thought Martin was a terrible writer.
Sold.
post #87 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Its good stuff, loads of fun, but I always thought Martin was a terrible writer.
Martin isn't a terrible writer. I'm not going to argue he's great or anything, but especially by the standards of the genre he's just fine, no worse than say Rowling.
post #88 of 93
Yeah, Lynch is great - you'll enjoy them, Rain Dog. The first is far superior to second, imho - I heard mutterings that he felt rushed to get the sequel out. Cameron, you seem fairly plugged in to this world - have you heard these rumblings that he's having trouble on the third book?

As for Martin, he squandered a lot f my good will with the appalling Feast for Crows, but I'm still looking forward to the next.
post #89 of 93
I'll also chime in for the love of Locke Lamora. It's the most breezy and entertaining "heavy fantasy" novel I've read in a long time.

I'm still a fan of Ice & Fire, but I'm more looking forward to the HBO series than Martin's next novel at this point.
post #90 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil Connors View Post
Yeah, Lynch is great - you'll enjoy them, Rain Dog. The first is far superior to second, imho - I heard mutterings that he felt rushed to get the sequel out. Cameron, you seem fairly plugged in to this world - have you heard these rumblings that he's having trouble on the third book?

As for Martin, he squandered a lot f my good will with the appalling Feast for Crows, but I'm still looking forward to the next.
Just that the third one is complex and long, which I think is a mistake. The first two work because while they're fairly long, they're fast-paced. Doubling the page count might kill that. They should be paced like Ocean's 11, not Martin.

The Lies of Locke Lamora would make a really cool movie/series of movies. Joseph Gordon Levitt as Locke?
post #91 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Just that the third one is complex and long, which I think is a mistake. The first two work because while they're fairly long, they're fast-paced. Doubling the page count might kill that. They should be paced like Ocean's 11, not Martin.

The Lies of Locke Lamora would make a really cool movie/series of movies. Joseph Gordon Levitt as Locke?
Heath Ledger would have made a fantastic Locke. Alas.
post #92 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
Heath Ledger would have made a fantastic Locke. Alas.
Maybe, but Levitt looks shiftier if need be(And I loved Ledger as Joker). There were some genuinely good twists in Locke Lamora, I'd much rather see it on HBO than Martin's series.
post #93 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cameron Hughes View Post
Just that the third one is complex and long, which I think is a mistake. The first two work because while they're fairly long, they're fast-paced. Doubling the page count might kill that. They should be paced like Ocean's 11, not Martin.

The Lies of Locke Lamora would make a really cool movie/series of movies. Joseph Gordon Levitt as Locke?
He's already fallen into the Martin trap. It's now a planned 7 volume series taking place over 25 years. With a second 7 volume series taking place in the same universe, different characters after he finishes the first series.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Books and Magazines
CHUD.com Community › Forums › ARTS & LITERATURE › Books and Magazines › George R. R. Martin addresses detractors on lateness of "A Dance With Dragons"...