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The Boxing Thread - Page 2

post #51 of 312
So as I expected, since this was a Mayweather fight afterall, last nights Mayweather v. Marquez fight was pretty forgetful. MAyweather totally dominated the fight, Marquez was totally over matched; Mayweather looked like he was 10 pounds heavier and was never in any sort of danger.

The more interesting part of the evening was the post fight interviews. Max Kellerman, who I certainly hope has permanently replaced Larry Merchant, was interviewing Mayweather and asked about fighting Shane Mosely and they had to be seperated, Trash talking ensued, Kellerman was trying to restore order, it was pretty good.
I think Mayweather is ducking Mosely cause he knows Mosely will give him a tough fight and may even beat him. Mosely feels like he should be given the chance to fight him and is rightfully upset.
post #52 of 312
Klitschko's keep rolling, is there anyone in the heavyweight to challenge them?
post #53 of 312
Mosley has no chance against Mayweather.

People criticise Mayweather, but the guy is pretty much a genius. His problem is that there is no-one truly in his weight class who can challenge him, so he hasn't had the wars that most fighters are remembered for.
post #54 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by jl1718 View Post
Klitschko's keep rolling, is there anyone in the heavyweight to challenge them?

Just each other, and we all know that fight will never happen.
post #55 of 312
I don't even know if I'd be all that hyped to see them fight each other. They are both excellent fighters, but both lack any real chutzpah.

I guess now they both flip a coin to see who gets to snag the WBA title from that slow Russian freak who barely beat old man Holyfield, and who by most accounts didn't really beat old man Holyfield.
post #56 of 312
David Haye has a shot at beating Valuev, and he's got a bit of charisma, but I don't fancy his chances against the Klitschko's, as are far above him technically. My god the heavyweight division is dire at the moment though.
post #57 of 312
In my opinion, boxing in general is in dire straits. The best it has to offer is retreading stars from the 90's, early 00's.

Mayweather, Mosley, Hopkins, etc.

The only fighter now worth watching, in my humble opinion, is Pacquaio. But he lacks charisma which is what this sport needs right now. It is no wonder MMA has taken over as the fighting sport to watch.
post #58 of 312
I didn't order it, but the Mayweather/Marquez fight did huge PPV numbers. When they get Mayweather/Pacquaio in the ring it'll be even bigger. The demand is there if you can get the right fight together.

But the sport overall is in desperate need of a polarizing Tysonesque figure for the nation to evenly split on whether to love or hate.
post #59 of 312
I agree that Boxing is not and can not be considered a "major sport". Unless you're a die-hard, super-fan of Boxing the only time people will come out to see or watch is for a hyped MAyweather/MArquez type fight. Those fights only occur a 2-3 times a year at most.
If you listen to Jim Lamley talk about boxing you'd think it was on par with the NFL, I don't know what he's been smoking lately.
post #60 of 312
Boxing's problem isn't lack of talent. The lower weight classes are bristling with talent (Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, Diaz, Mosley). Don't give me that "boxing needs great heavyweights" nonsense either. Back in the early 80's it was the "little" guys like Sugar Ray, Hagler, Hearns and Duran that ushered in a golden age while Holmes was overwhelming inferior competition in the heavyweight division much like the Klitschko brother's of today.

The problem isn't the sport, its the business model. Boxing is phasing itself out of the public consciousness. Back in the day guys like Sugar Ray Leonard fought on network television where casual fans could check him out and become more than casual fans. Now you have to shell out 50 bucks (something casual fans aren't doing) for every fight that matters. On top of that, sometimes those fights aren't very good which makes people bitter and loathe the sport rather than just indifferent to a bad fight in the way that they become indifferent to a bad Superbowl. Think about it... only FANS are buying fights and only FANS are getting burned. Sounds like an ass-backward way of increasing a fan base. Where are they trying to change this? That bullshit soap opera nonsense The Contender? That's not letting the sport win people over, that's a gimmick plain and simple.

Pay Per View and underexposure is hurting the sport. If I didn't get free PPV in the early 90's as a young fellow I would have never become the boxing fan that I am today. Its a shame because its a really outstanding sport.

One last comment on Mosley Vs. Mayweather... this reminds me of when a seemingly unstoppable Roy Jones was ducking Tarver for about a decade and no one thought anything of it and I was thinking "Well, he's gotta be ducking him for a reason." This is how I feel about the seemingly unstoppable Mayweather right now. I think he knows better than any of us that it's a way harder paycheck to earn than most think.

Furthermore, it would do his bank account a favor if he stayed an unstoppable trash talking promotion machine for a little longer. Once that sheen comes off it changes the game and the economic landscape of a fighter that delivers consistently underwhelming fights. Right now, half the people are buying his fights because they don't wanna miss the day he gets put on his ass. That's just dollars and cents there.
post #61 of 312
Everybody ready for Pacman vs. Mayweather? I usually do not buy the PPV"s, if this happens I may have to.

BTW, Cotto vs Pacquiao will be replayed on HBO on the 21st. Pacquiao looks like he took some big shots last night. Wonder how Cotto looks.
post #62 of 312
Worse.
Cotto landed some good shots, but Pacquiao didn't seem to notice.


post #63 of 312
I think Dan Wetzel of Yahoo Sports put it best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Wetzel
Post-fight, Cotto was sent to a local trauma unit. Pacquiao performed an eight-song set with his band at an outdoor concert at Mandalay Bay.
post #64 of 312
Yeah, he was probably sent to the trauma unit because his corner is terrible. They weren't icing him, they weren't tending to his cuts properly. I will never understand why boxers think they can just put their friends and relatives in their corners and it won't matter.

Manny didn't even have a good fight. He was lazy and sloppy in there a lot of the time. It just makes the win that much more impressive.

I don't think Mayweather is taking this fight any time soon. It's going to be spun as a money issue but in the end, he doesn't like a fight, he likes a mutual agreement to make a lot of money (see: De La Hoya Vs Mayweather). He'll say he doesn't need it, he'll claim he dominated Marquez and that's the same as beating Manny... the guy is a business man, not a warrior. And he wonders why with all that skill people still don't like him. It's a shame but whatever, he'll be able to speak clearly when he's 50 so at least he'll have that.
post #65 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Yeah, he was probably sent to the trauma unit because his corner is terrible. They weren't icing him, they weren't tending to his cuts properly. I will never understand why boxers think they can just put their friends and relatives in their corners and it won't matter.

Manny didn't even have a good fight. He was lazy and sloppy in there a lot of the time. It just makes the win that much more impressive.

I don't think Mayweather is taking this fight any time soon. It's going to be spun as a money issue but in the end, he doesn't like a fight, he likes a mutual agreement to make a lot of money (see: De La Hoya Vs Mayweather). He'll say he doesn't need it, he'll claim he dominated Marquez and that's the same as beating Manny... the guy is a business man, not a warrior. And he wonders why with all that skill people still don't like him. It's a shame but whatever, he'll be able to speak clearly when he's 50 so at least he'll have that.
I had to work last night and missed the fight, I'll just catch the replay next week on HBO. Totally agree with about fighters with corner issues. Loyalty should only go so far, get a legit cutman who knows what the hell they're doing. If you can't, then you deserve to have your face swell up like a balloon.

I honestly thought Cotto could take this fight. A little surprised that Pac-Man was so dominant. I thought the same thing about his fight with DelaHoya; I going to start picking against him.

A Pacquiou Vs. Mayweather fight could be one of the biggest fights to come along in a LONG time. I agree that its going to take a massive consesions on both sides to get this fight done; and with boxing being what it is-a business- I doubt it'll happen. MAyweather certainly ducks opponents, he won't fight Shane Mosley and he probably won't fight Pacquio. But if he did, I would favor both those guys over Floyd because he's never faced true fighters like Manny and Shane.
post #66 of 312
Yeah, in such evenly matched fights you gotta give the advantage to the guys that have tested chins rather than a guy that's never been hit by anyone too great. Floyd's chin is the unknown... either one of them can catch him and I think he sorta knows it.

It's reminiscent of Roy Jones ducking Tarver and a Hopkins (rematch) for years... they were the only fights that would have been tough for him and he knew it.
post #67 of 312
Hopefully Floyd needs the money as bad as everyone say he does. Roach said last night that Floyd's 65-35 usual cut isn't gonna work this time. I agree we will not see this fight unless Floyd is broke. With that said, there is enormous public pressure for him to work a deal and make this match happen.
post #68 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
I don't think Mayweather is taking this fight any time soon. It's going to be spun as a money issue but in the end, he doesn't like a fight, he likes a mutual agreement to make a lot of money (see: De La Hoya Vs Mayweather). He'll say he doesn't need it, he'll claim he dominated Marquez and that's the same as beating Manny... the guy is a business man, not a warrior. And he wonders why with all that skill people still don't like him. It's a shame but whatever, he'll be able to speak clearly when he's 50 so at least he'll have that.
Arturo Gatti (40-9, 31 KOs), Sharmba Mitchell (57-6, 30), Zab Judah (38-6, 26), Carlos Baldomir (44-12, 13), Oscar De La Hoya (39-6, 30), Ricky Hatton (45-2, 32), and Juan Manuel Marquez (50-5, 37), all since '05, and Corrales, Castillo, Chavez, and Manfredy among others would disagree with you.

People think Mayweather is a punk because he hasn't fought Mosley or Pacman but the reality is that every fighter wants a piece of Floyd because he can give them the biggest payday of their careers. You can't fight everyone and you can't fight everyday. Floyd has taken apart elite fighters, guys with power and guys with elite hand speed. There's no reason to believe he's afraid of either Pacquiao or Mosley. If the price is right he'll step into the ring with either one, but he won't fight them just because WE want to see him fight them. He's earned that. If you don't like him because of that, hey, that's your choice, but you can't discount what he's done in his career.
post #69 of 312
EDIT: sorry, it posted twice for some reason... just read below.
post #70 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Arturo Gatti (40-9, 31 KOs), Sharmba Mitchell (57-6, 30), Zab Judah (38-6, 26), Carlos Baldomir (44-12, 13), Oscar De La Hoya (39-6, 30), Ricky Hatton (45-2, 32), and Juan Manuel Marquez (50-5, 37), all since '05, and Corrales, Castillo, Chavez, and Manfredy among others would disagree with you.
Big names don't mean big challenges. Nearly every one of those names had a major handicap going into those matches. That list proves the point that Mayweather takes safe fights... especially once he was on top and had control over whom he fought.

Gatti - Much smaller and slower... Lightweight power. Never had a chance. (Still an all time favorite of mine.)

Mitchell - 35 years old... naturally smaller, no power

Judah - Not the heaviest hands but at the time the fight seemed like a real challenge. I'll give you this one.

Baldamir - Really? A slow pile that never had a chance (ask Vegas) with NO defense. Did anyone think Floyd was in trouble going into this one? A joke really.

De La Hoya - 35 years old... past his prime but still a challenge but Floyd didn't look too brave in there. If there was ever a fight that proved he didn't want to actually engage in a real fight...

Hatton - a naturally smaller punch sponge that was never going to have a chance in there. Again, ask Vegas if anyone thought he had did. That said, he was probably Floyd's biggest challenge (for a few rounds) in years.

Marquez - Way way way smaller 36 year old... I believe going into this one I told my friend "I really want to make this interesting to watch but I can't imagine a situation where Marquez wins a round that Floyd doesn't take off." Also, lets not forget he came in bigger on that fight than the contract weight demanded... he didn't even step up to the challenge of coming in closer to Marquez's size! WTF!?

Corrales, Castillo, and Manfredy I will give you but those were all fights at a time where he had to take them. He had no leverage.

The one thing that becomes glaring in that list is that most of his challengers were slow, smaller or 35+. Not slower ... everyone is slower than Floyd but actually considered slow. He never took on anyone that was even remotely near the full package. They usually had two of the above qualities, especially once he got leverage. The one guy that has been out there from the beginning waiting (Mosely) Floyd has ducked for YEARS. Floyd retired when Mosely was the only guy left to fight... it's clear he doesn't want anything to do with this fight until Shane is 40 and slowing down.

Again... he'll be able to speak clearly when he's 50 so I understand why. His approach just isn't something I like in a boxer. Its a shame because I think we're missing out as fans. He's the most talented boxer out there, I just wish he'd show it more. NOT knocking out Marquez in that fight is damning evidence the guy just doesn't want to mix it up if he doesn't have to.
post #71 of 312
Everytime I hear about Floyd I always think of RA the Rugged Man practically making him cry:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHmCYlIsX5E
(great listen - RA tears him down, but the dude's a student of the sport as well)

Unfortunately I still think Floyd has the style to neutralize Pac. As great as Manny is, his defense relies purely on footwork, and Mayweather would have a field day. Oddly enough I think Cotto would have a better chance of beating Floyd: Cotto has a style difficult for pure boxers, who unlike boxer/punchers...don't get to crack his chin as often.
post #72 of 312
That interview is great. Makes me sound like I almost know what I'm talking about! Thanks for the link, Banandar. That's going in the favorites.
post #73 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Big names don't mean big challenges. Nearly every one of those names had a major handicap going into those matches. That list proves the point that Mayweather takes safe fights... especially once he was on top and had control over whom he fought.
They become big names because they earn it. These are all good to great fighters. There are very few fighters with no handicap, and that's part of why Floyd is such a great, he has no major weaknesses and some would say no weakness at all. He's not going to find a fighter out there who's as good as he is, even Pacman who is a close second. I don't begrudge Floyd taking only big money fights after establishing himself as the P4P king. These guys fight like mad and for little to no money early in their careers. He's earned the right to be picky and have money be the reason for it.

I can't see how you call all of those fights "safe" though. Maybe they only seem so because Floyd is so good he makes other good fighters look mediocre at times in comparison. I feel Floyd's accomplishments get downplayed because he hasn't had as many wars as some other fighters, but if you're so good that others can't touch you then, hey, good for you.

Quote:
The one thing that becomes glaring in that list is that most of his challengers were slow, smaller or 35+. Not slower ... everyone is slower than Floyd but actually considered slow. He never took on anyone that was even remotely near the full package. They usually had two of the above qualities, especially once he got leverage. The one guy that has been out there from the beginning waiting (Mosely) Floyd has ducked for YEARS. Floyd retired when Mosely was the only guy left to fight... it's clear he doesn't want anything to do with this fight until Shane is 40 and slowing down.
Age when they fought Floyd:
Marquez 35 (coming off of Diaz[w], Casamayor[w], Pacquiao[l12], Juarez[w], Barrera[w])
Hatton 29, De La Hoya 34
Baldomir 35 (coming right off of Gatti[w], Judah[w])
Judah 28, Gatti 33
Mitchell 35 (coming off of Chris Smith[w], Tszyu[l], Pedroza[w], Michael Stewart[w])
Castillo 29 (twice), Manfredy 24, Corrales 23.

And Floyd has always had good size for whatever weight class he's fought at, you can't knock his competition for that. Most of them have beaten bigger fighters in their day. Floyd has the fastest hands out there, so everyone is slow compared to him.

Quote:
Again... he'll be able to speak clearly when he's 50 so I understand why. His approach just isn't something I like in a boxer. Its a shame because I think we're missing out as fans. He's the most talented boxer out there, I just wish he'd show it more. NOT knocking out Marquez in that fight is damning evidence the guy just doesn't want to mix it up if he doesn't have to.
I don't blame you for wanting to see Floyd fight more, I do too. And yeah, I wish money wasn't such an obstacle to getting Mosley and Pacman fights done, but Floyd can do it because he's one of the few fighters out there that has the clout to do so. If other fighters were PPV draws like Floyd, they'd be just as picky. He may have gotten a couple guys just past their prime, but the later he gets them, the later they get Floyd too, it goes both ways.

We may think, hey what's the difference between 65%-35% or 60-40 or even 55-45 when your purse is $10-15+ million, but you have to remember that taxes will lop half of that off, plus trainer, manager, promoter, and all other expenses will knock a nice bit off of that too. If Floyd thinks he's the major draw (love him or hate him), he's right, so I don't disagree with him that he should get the lion's share. If someone were to beat him, they'd be in for a few nice paydays on the strength of that, so it's not like their argument that they're getting cheated is that strong.

I don't take his lack of a KO against Marquez as a knock on Floyd. He didn't KO De La Hoya, Judah, or Castillo either, but won comprehensively just the same (The De La Hoya split decision was a farce. Floyd won that pretty decisively.) Some fighters perfer to box, some want to slug it out and look for the stoppage. Floyd has only stopped 25 of 40 opponents, and it's not for a lack of stopping power, it's just not his game to go in looking for stoppages every fight. But when he dominates, it's from round 1 to 12, he doesn't take half a fight off like some other guys. Beating Marquez as badly as he did after an almost two year layoff was nice.
post #74 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I don't begrudge Floyd taking only big money fights after establishing himself as the P4P king. These guys fight like mad and for little to no money early in their careers. He's earned the right to be picky and have money be the reason for it.
Besides De La Hoya, the bigger money was always in a Mosley fight... still didn't take it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I can't see how you call all of those fights "safe" though. Maybe they only seem so because Floyd is so good he makes other good fighters look mediocre at times in comparison. I feel Floyd's accomplishments get downplayed because he hasn't had as many wars as some other fighters, but if you're so good that others can't touch you then, hey, good for you.
They were safer fights for the reasons I listed previously. Those "flaws" those fighters had weren't in comparison to Floyd (except for size). They were actually glaring flaws those boxers had. Most didn't belong in the ring with him for those reasons.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Age when they fought Floyd:
Marquez 35 (coming off of Diaz[w], Casamayor[w], Pacquiao[l12], Juarez[w], Barrera[w])
Hatton 29, De La Hoya 34
Baldomir 35 (coming right off of Gatti[w], Judah[w])
Judah 28, Gatti 33
Mitchell 35 (coming off of Chris Smith[w], Tszyu[l], Pedroza[w], Michael Stewart[w])
Castillo 29 (twice), Manfredy 24, Corrales 23.
Yeah, and the guys that weren't old were slow or smaller... I gave you the Castillo, Manfredy and Corrales fights. They were just so long ago they're not part of the conversation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
If other fighters were PPV draws like Floyd, they'd be just as picky.

We may think, hey what's the difference between 65%-35% or 60-40 or even 55-45 when your purse is $10-15+ million, but you have to remember that taxes will lop half of that off, plus trainer, manager, promoter, and all other expenses will knock a nice bit off of that too. If Floyd thinks he's the major draw (love him or hate him), he's right, so I don't disagree with him that he should get the lion's share. If someone were to beat him, they'd be in for a few nice paydays on the strength of that, so it's not like their argument that they're getting cheated is that strong.
Okay, so when the numbers come out for that Pacman fight and they eclipse or match the Mayweather/Marquez numbers it'll be safe to say Mayweather isn't the biggest draw in the sport, right? It should probably be a 50/50 split, right? So when Floyd insists on a 55/45 and the fight doesn't happen is it because he deserves more or he just doesn't want the fight?

You can skip that last paragraph, I know it's all just speculation now but he's not the biggest draw and the PPV numbers that come out tomorrow will back me up on that one. Floyd draws, but not nearly as well as you think. He NEEDED those Mexican fans (of which there are MANY) to make those PPV numbers pass 1 million... Cotto's draw? Not that big... he's got a rabid but small Puerto Rican fan base in the north east and Puerto Rico. Manny more or less got over a million buys by himself.

By the way, I can talk boxing all day. I'm just glad someone is willing to trade on here. Keep them coming!
post #75 of 312
The bigger question, possibly, besides the money split is will Mayweather come on at the agreed weight. Roach has already said that if Pac's opponent does not some in at weight they walk, no cash settlement like they(Floyd) did with Marquez.

HBO wants a deal done as soon as the PPV numbers come out Wednesday(can't say I blame them). Mayweather has been quiet this week.

Could we a consolation prize of Pac vs Mosley? I ask because I'm pretty new to following boxing.
post #76 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Besides De La Hoya, the bigger money was always in a Mosley fight... still didn't take it.

They were safer fights for the reasons I listed previously. Those "flaws" those fighters had weren't in comparison to Floyd (except for size). They were actually glaring flaws those boxers had. Most didn't belong in the ring with him for those reasons.

Yeah, and the guys that weren't old were slow or smaller... I gave you the Castillo, Manfredy and Corrales fights. They were just so long ago they're not part of the conversation.

Okay, so when the numbers come out for that Pacman fight and they eclipse or match the Mayweather/Marquez numbers it'll be safe to say Mayweather isn't the biggest draw in the sport, right? It should probably be a 50/50 split, right? So when Floyd insists on a 55/45 and the fight doesn't happen is it because he deserves more or he just doesn't want the fight?

You can skip that last paragraph, I know it's all just speculation now but he's not the biggest draw and the PPV numbers that come out tomorrow will back me up on that one. Floyd draws, but not nearly as well as you think. He NEEDED those Mexican fans (of which there are MANY) to make those PPV numbers pass 1 million... Cotto's draw? Not that big... he's got a rabid but small Puerto Rican fan base in the north east and Puerto Rico. Manny more or less got over a million buys by himself.

By the way, I can talk boxing all day. I'm just glad someone is willing to trade on here. Keep them coming!
Much of this sounds like speculation to me. I don't see definitive evidence that Mosley would have been the biggest $ draw for Mayweather, especially considering the split Mosley would have demanded. As for the "flaws" you mention, if you're judging boxers by that standard, pretty much everyone besides a handful of guys have "huge" flaws in their game. I'm just not buying that. Most of those guys "belonged" in the ring with Floyd as much as anyone.

I also don't know how you discount fights longer than 3-4 years ago. That's downplaying Floyd's credentials just for the sake of being a contrarian. The guys you claim were too old or slow for Floyd were destroying opponents right up to their fights with Mayweather, otherwise I wouldn't have included them in the list of good opponents.

I also don't know why you seem to be so confidant Pacquiao will outdraw - or even come close to - Mayweather. He's never been as big a draw, there was less hype, and it's coming on the heels of Mayweather's fight. A Floyd-Manny fight will never be 50-50, and it shouldn't, even if Pacquiao-Cotto outdraws Mayweather-Marquez (which in all likelihood it won't). Floyd is the proven money maker and people are watching to see how he does against Pacman, not the other way around. He's the king, Pac will be the potential usurper.

Of course Mayweather would need Marquez fans to hit 1+ million buys, but he also got non-committed fans, and many of them wouldn't have bought had Marquez been fighting anyone else. Pac wouldn't have drawn as much as he will had he not been fighting Cotto, who has his own followers. Both fighters bring viewers to the table, Floyd just brings more than anyone else.
post #77 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I also don't know how you discount fights longer than 3-4 years ago. That's downplaying Floyd's credentials just for the sake of being a contrarian. The guys you claim were too old or slow for Floyd were destroying opponents right up to their fights with Mayweather, otherwise I wouldn't have included them in the list of good opponents.
Since the discussion is whether Floyd ducks tougher opposition we have to refer to a time where he had a say in the matter... so in that particular argument fights from 7, 8 and 11 years ago (Castillo, Corales and Manfredy) are irrelevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I also don't know why you seem to be so confidant Pacquiao will outdraw - or even come close to - Mayweather. He's never been as big a draw, there was less hype, and it's coming on the heels of Mayweather's fight. A Floyd-Manny fight will never be 50-50, and it shouldn't, even if Pacquiao-Cotto outdraws Mayweather-Marquez (which in all likelihood it won't). Floyd is the proven money maker and people are watching to see how he does against Pacman, not the other way around. He's the king, Pac will be the potential usurper.
Mayweather - Marquez did 1 million PPV buys... Pacquiao - Cotto is being projected at between 1 and 1.5 million. We can debate plenty but numbers are numbers and no one would claim Cotto is a bigger draw than Marquez so I'm curious how you would try to spin this. Especially since you admit there was LESS HYPE. Imagine how big the Numbers would be if there was MORE.

You'd think Mayweather's drawing power would be able to eclipse a Pac - Cotto fight being that he was retired for 18 months and had a large Mexican audience buying for the other guy. We'll find out for sure tomorrow and there will be no need to speculate.

If Manny gets the bigger numbers and shows he's at the very least just as big of a draw then why wouldn't he deserve a 50/50 split? I don't understand where you're coming from on this issue.

EDIT: De La Hoya was destroying NO ONE in the years leading to the Floyd fight. Marquez was beating guys 15lbs lighter. Baldamir beat a past his prime Gatti and Mr. Self Destruct Zab Judah (which shocked me but I loved it)... and regardless; if you're a boxing fan you know how quickly guys get old in the ring. It's almost like it happens overnight. In these cases though that's irrelevant, they were old before they ever got to Floyd.
post #78 of 312
Pacquiao-Marquez did 400k in 2008, just sayin'. And don't discount Cotto's drawing power as he's beaten Clottey, Moseley, and Judah in the past couple years; he'll bring in his share of buys. And yes, there is less hype, and there is a reason for that, Pac doesn't excite the fans as much as Floyd does. Pacquiao has never drawn as well as Mayweather, and Floyd would be the favorite going into that fight, so it would make sense for Floyd to get at least 55-45. If it were up to me, I'd give them both 33% and the winner would take the remaining third. But, that's a dream.

De La Hoya abused Mayorga in his fight preceding Mayweather. You keep knocking all these fighters for their age when they were still productive and still beating the best fighters. Pac beat De La Hoya (after Floyd), Marquez, Hatton (after Floyd), and Barrera in the past few years - were they all past their prime too? Maybe Floyd "aged" those fighters after demolishing them. Pac drew and won a split decision vs Marquez when Floyd beat him comprehensively. Pac fought no one of any consequence before '03, while Floyd had already beaten Castillo twice, Jesus Chavez, Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, and Manfredy.

In the end, I'm saying it's ridiculous if you look at the numbers and at the results to say that Floyd is scared of Pac or Sugar Shane. Everytime I hear about a potential Mayweather-Pacquiao/Moseley matchup, it seems to be money, or some BS claim about weight that seems to be the issue, and as much of the waffling is coming from Pac and Shane's camp as from Floyd's. People are just knocking on Floyd more than the other two because he's the one they want to see fight. If I were in Pac or Shane's camp, I'd do just as they are doing and use that pressure to try to up my take in the fight.

How bout Shane and Manny fight with the winner taking on Floyd? None of them have fought one another, and if Pac and Shane want Floyd so bad, let them duke it out for the honor while Floyd sells PPVs to line all their pockets.
post #79 of 312

[QUOTE=dajuice7;2753052] [/QUOTE]

EDIT: Sorry... internet being retarded. Read below:
post #80 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Pacquiao-Marquez did 400k in 2008
Before Pac turned into a global phenomenon with the De La Hoya win... If you deny Pac was just as or nearly as popular pre-De La Hoya fight you're just arguing to argue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Pac doesn't excite the fans as much as Floyd does.
Now I just think you're high. I guess Floyd was more exciting than Gatti too? Yeah, boxing fans hate those guys that love to trade and force the action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Pacquiao has never drawn as well as Mayweather
Well, being so close together we're about to be able to compare two relevant and comparable fights to see who draws what.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
De La Hoya abused Mayorga in his fight preceding Mayweather.
You're obsessed with "names". Mayorga was 2-2 leading up to this fight and clearly washed up after losing to Spinks and getting knocked out by a VERY washed up Trinidad (check your history before defending him next). Mayorga was a willing target. That's why he got fights. You need some perspective regarding many of the fights you mention.


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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
You keep knocking all these fighters for their age when they were still productive and still beating the best fighters. Pac beat De La Hoya (after Floyd), Marquez, Hatton (after Floyd), and Barrera in the past few years - were they all past their prime too?
Pac could never be accused of ducking anyone. If you want to waste your time questioning the talent level of his competition and whether he's willing to take fights he might lose, that's on you. At least he doesn't make a 36 year old career lightweight jump up 10 pounds to meet him at a catch weight and then come into the weigh in TWO pounds heavier than that catch weight. Cowardly and inexcusable.


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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Maybe Floyd "aged" those fighters after demolishing them. Pac drew and won a split decision vs Marquez when Floyd beat him comprehensively.
See above... that's a pretty good strategy to "age" a fighter you already had every advantage against.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Pac fought no one of any consequence before '03, while Floyd had already beaten Castillo twice, Jesus Chavez, Corrales, Carlos Hernandez, and Manfredy.
So he didn't fight anyone of any consequence by the time he was 23? How is that a knock? Floyd is a special fighter in this regard. What's the point? Manny took longer to reach his potential. Who would argue that? It's not like he was ducking guys or anything so how is this relevant?

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Everytime I hear about a potential Mayweather-Pacquiao/Moseley matchup, it seems to be money, or some BS claim about weight that seems to be the issue... People are just knocking on Floyd more than the other two because he's the one they want to see fight.
Yeah, Mayweather is using money as an excuse to avoid it. Guys don't just say "I'm afraid of him". They come up with excuses like "the money ain't right." That was my original point. Apparently he took LESS money than he was offered to fight Mosley back in the day. I can't confirm it, just something mentioned in that radio interview posted above.

People are knocking Floyd because he doesn't fight the best and he doesn't look for the knockout. He's extremely talented and extremely dull at the same time. People don't like safety in the ring, they like reckless abandon and a warrior. This is why guys like Holyfield, Gatti, Manny and Duran were so popular. He's gotta run his mouth leading up to a fight because his production inside the ring just isn't entertaining enough. He's got top 10 talent and no heart or motivation to match it. That's why we're all disappointed. He's depriving us.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
How bout Shane and Manny fight with the winner taking on Floyd? None of them have fought one another, and if Pac and Shane want Floyd so bad, let them duke it out for the honor while Floyd sells PPVs to line all their pockets.
We'll find out tomorrow how many more PPV's Floyd sells than Manny in 2009. If I'm Manny, I don't take the Mosley fight. That's like asking Floyd to fight Kelly Pavlik. There is a difference between "safe", a challenge and stupid. Manny has gone from 106lbs to 145... now you want him to fight a guy that has fought at 154 in the past? Come on, man. I like how Manny is supposed to take on challenges of historic proportions every fight but you ask nothing of Floyd as a fan except for him to get paid. That's ridiculous. I don't think Manny has a chance against Mosley. No way... but against Floyd we have an interesting fight and that's all I want as a fan of both boxing and it's history.
post #81 of 312
Over at Theboxingtruth.com:

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I never in my wildest dreams would have thought that in a proposed match-up between Manny Pacquiao and Floyd Mayweather Jr. that the oddsmakers would open up the Filipino as any sort of betting favorite of the "Pretty Boy". It's a testament to the eye-opening statements made by the "Pacman" within his recent performances and that the betting public has completely fallen in love with the southpaw monster.

Apparently the line-makers opened up Pacquiao as an 8-5 favorite against Mayweather which provoked some Floyd backers to bring in a "couple stacks of high society", driving the odds down to 7-5 for Manny.
Just more proof, Manny is just as (or more) popular and deserves 50/50... unless you think he's the favorite for his skills.
post #82 of 312
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Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Before Pac turned into a global phenomenon with the De La Hoya win...
You just contradicted yourself right there. You say his numbers vs Marquez were "low" because he wasn't a global phenom yet, then you turn around and say that Pac was just as big before the De La Hoya fight as he was after. What?

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Now I just think you're high. I guess Floyd was more exciting than Gatti too?
Your argument that Pac excites fans more than Floyd just doesn't hold up. Floyd came back after a 2 year layoff - 2 years! - and sold over 1 million PPV buys. The ONLY time a non-heavyweight, non-De La Hoya fight did that. When Floyd fought De La Hoya, they sold over 2.7 million(!) PPV buys. No non-heavyweight fight - including De La Hoya fights - even sniffed this level previously. Floyd was and still is considered the best P4P fighter out there, and it was after his demolition of Gatti for the Super Lightweight belt that he assumed the mantle of P4P king. So yeah, he's more exciting than Pac, Gatti, and whoever else was out there. Pac only entered the P4P conversation after Floyd "retired." People pay a lot of money to see Floyd, with his drawing power only matched by De La Hoya when Oscar was in his prime.

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...we're about to be able to compare two relevant and comparable fights...
First, this still doesn't change the fact that Floyd was always the bigger draw. And he well may still outdraw Pac even though these two fights aren't as "comparable" as you may believe. Again, Floyd had been out of the ring for 2 years and when he came back he fought at a catchweight 144 (146 at the weigh in). His last 3 fights were at Super Welterweight, Welterweight, and a Catchweight, whereas Manny fought at Welterweight and Light Welterweight. Floyd has moved weight classes to fight elite competition more in recent years than Pac (look up the fights for proof), who was coming off a fight just months earlier (a 2 rounder at that, so he was by no means beat up nor out of shape, whereas Floyd had to worry about rust and his rib injury)! I don't doubt for a second that Pac is a draw, but the clear evidence is that Floyd is the top draw, period.

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Mayorga was 2-2 leading up to this fight and clearly washed up after losing to Spinks and getting knocked out by a VERY washed up Trinidad...
I'm not obsessed with "names," I point out good fighters. And it just so happens that good fighters become "name" fighters. Your argument about Mayorga is just plain wrong. He beat Fernando Vargas and Michele Piccirillo in those two wins and his 2 loses came to Spinks (who only had 2 loses coming into that fight, and followed his win over Mayorga with a win over Zab Judah) and Trinidad (who's only previous loss was a 12th round KO by Bernard friggin' Hopkins). VERY washed up?!? Wrong. Trinidad had recently beaten Whitaker, De La Hoya, and Vargas before the Mayorga fight. Trinidad/Mayorga - not...washed...up. I think it's your perspective that's off on this one. So, in conclusion, Oscar's win over Mayorga was dominant and relevant, clearly refuting your original argument that Floyd's opponents were "too old" and washed up when they got Floyd.

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Pac could never be accused of ducking anyone.
If you claim Floyd is ducking because he hasn't fought Mosley, why aren't you claiming that Pac is ducking Shane too. They haven't fought. And I never questioned the talent of Pac's opponents. He's fought many of the same fighters Floyd has recently and Floyd beat them also, and before Manny got to most of them at that. You're the one saying Floyd's opponents suck when Pac has fought the same guys!!!

If you're going to call Floyd a coward and imply he's unprofessional because he came back after 2 years, fought at Catchweight, had a rib injury in training and missed the weight by 2 pounds(!) then that's just ridiculous. "Cowardly?!" Like he was afraid to lose those last two pounds?! Stop. Marquez went from 135lb to 142lb for that fight, he didn't suffer. Floyd had last fought at 154lb, then 147lb, then had to lose a lot of weight to get to 146lb for the Marquez fight. If you want to argue who had the tougher task, we can do that all day.

If Floyd had "every advantage" over his opponents, it's because he's better than them. There's no cheating, or magic pill, or divine intervention here, just skill. You claimed all those opponents of Floyd's were too old and I pointed out that when he fought them they weren't as old as you thought they were and that they were on their game (look at their recent opponents and results). You say fighters age quickly, lose their game quickly. Well, if that's true then Pac's wins over Hatton and De La Hoya mean nothing because they were "too old" by your argument, especially considering Floyd had fought them prior to Pac. If you're going to give Pac credit, you have to give Floyd credit or you're just being unfairly biased.

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So he didn't fight anyone of any consequence by the time he was 23?
The point of this is that Floyd has been fighting top level competition for longer than Pac. He hasn't ducked and isn't ducking now. He's proven himself, and earned his P4P title and drawing power through fighting good competition for a long time (over a decade). Pac's level of opposition only increased in the past 5 years so arguing that he's got more hype, a larger following, whatever is just not supported by any metric. To claim Floyd, with his long history of good competition, is afraid of either Pac or Mosley is silly.

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Yeah, Mayweather is using money as an excuse to avoid it. Guys don't just say "I'm afraid of him".
Mayweather isn't using money to avoid a fight with either Shane or Manny. If you read interviews, all the camps are arguing about money and weight. If Pac or Mosley wanted Floyd so bad, why haven't they taken 35% or 40%, knowing that's enough to get them the fight they want and the largest payday of their careers? Money is a bigger factor for them than Floyd anyway. Floyd WILL get paid, whether it's 65% or 55%, but why should he have to fork over 45% to 50% to an opponent who hasn't proven to be the draw that he is? That's just hubris on the part of Pac and Shane's camps. Why is Pac's camp demanding equal share with Floyd AND that Floyd come down to their favored weight? Silly.

And as for Shane, don't forget he wasn't that big a draw back in the day. His resume was very weak til he fought Oscar in 2000, Vernon Forrest twice in 2002 (lost both times to Forrest at that), a head butt no contest against Raul Marquez in in 2003, and Oscar again in 2003 (where he was busted for doping), followed by consecutive losses to Winky Wright. He was in no position to demand a fight with Floyd when Floyd was coming off of wins versus Corrales, Castillo twice, and Jesus Chavez. Hubris.

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People are knocking Floyd because he doesn't fight the best and he doesn't look for the knockout. He's depriving us.
Your argument that Floyd hasn't/doesn't fight the best is as wrong as saying Pac doesn't fight the best. And to knock him because he doesn't "look for" the KO is silly. He has 25 KO's and he's not even a power fighter. Why should fighters only be legit if they look to slug it out and get hit in the face over and over again? Floyd is skilled, the most skilled fighter in the world, and that's why he's the P4P king. Unless you're saying Ring Magazine was on crack... To call Floyd dull is nonsensical. That's like calling Ali dull because he innovated defense, had great hand speed, and had unrivalled footwork. Ali had 19 non-KO wins, does that mean he's dull?! Was Ray Leonard a chump because he wasn't reckless?

To say Floyd has no heart after he went 12 rounds with Marquez, Judah, De La Hoya, Baldomir, Castillo twice, and ten with Corrales and Hatton is just plain wrong. Hatton came at him constantly and absorbed all kinds of punishment and Floyd kept at him for 12. De La Hoya went toe to toe with him for 12 and Floyd gets no credit for heart and perserverance (after moving up from Welterweight against Baldomir and Judah months earlier to Super Welterweight for Oscar! This after fighting at Lightweight for a couple years...)

And your last line about him "depriving" you is the key to your feelings about Floyd. I think you're biased against his accomplishments because you don't like him. Yeah, he has a mouth, but that sells fights. I didn't like Lennox Lewis, but damn if he wasn't the best HW of his generation, and wasn't afraid to step in the ring with anyone. I wasn't the biggest De La Hoya fan either, but damn if he isn't one of the greats. Don't let your dislike of Floyd lead you to incorrectly and unfairly diminish his accomplishments.
post #83 of 312
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If I'm Manny, I don't take the Mosley fight. That's like asking Floyd to fight Kelly Pavlik. Manny has gone from 106lbs to 145... now you want him to fight a guy that has fought at 154 in the past? Come on, man. I like how Manny is supposed to take on challenges of historic proportions..
If you can demand that Floyd fight Mosley, why can't I suggest Manny take on Shane, the guy that is also calling for a Floyd fight? Floyd has fought at 154 before, so why does the fact that Shane once fought at 154 mean Pac can't fight him but he can fight Floyd? Floyd has fought between 130 and 154. If you think he should come down to 145 for Manny, why can't Manny go up to 147 to fight Mosley at Welterweight? Again, double standards. You complain about Pac taking on a "challenge of historic proportions" like Ali in his prime is going to walk through the door on Pac. I'm saying Pac and Shane, the two guys who want Floyd should fight an eliminator at a mutual weight, 147. If Pac can fight Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto back to back to back, what's the big deal?

I demand Floyd take on good competition and he has. The same competition as Pac in fact. And he deserves to get paid for it. Why wouldn't Pac have a chance against Mosley? If he's the P4P king, he should be able to win. If Floyd can beat Mosley, and Pac can beat Floyd, then Pac can beat Shane. Simple.

Look, I've enjoyed this back and forth. And your boxing knowledge is legit. But I think your arguments about Floyd are wrong, and I think it's because you don't like his personality, which honestly, I don't like either. But he's gotten it done in the ring against elite competition. I hope he gets Pac, and soon, but to force them to fight with Floyd getting less than what he's worth is ridiculous and discounts what Floyd did his entire career to get to the position he's in now. And to call Floyd a coward is just wrong.
post #84 of 312
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Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Over at Theboxingtruth.com:
Just more proof, Manny is just as (or more) popular and deserves 50/50... unless you think he's the favorite for his skills.
This isn't proof of anything. Oddsmakers aren't analysts and they don't fix odds because of fighter "popularity." I don't doubt Manny has more "admirers," he's not as abrasive as Floyd, but that's different from saying those people think he's the better fighter. This doesn't mean more people will buy this fight because of Manny. This certainly doesn't entitle Manny to a 50-50 split.
post #85 of 312
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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
You just contradicted yourself right there. You say his numbers vs Marquez were "low" because he wasn't a global phenom yet, then you turn around and say that Pac was just as big before the De La Hoya fight as he was after. What?
Huh? I asked YOU if you were going to use that as an excuse... there's no way Pac was as big then as he is now.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Your argument that Pac excites fans more than Floyd just doesn't hold up. Floyd came back after a 2 year layoff - 2 years! - and sold over 1 million PPV buys. The ONLY time a non-heavyweight, non-De La Hoya fight did that. When Floyd fought De La Hoya, they sold over 2.7 million(!) PPV buys. No non-heavyweight fight - including De La Hoya fights - even sniffed this level previously.
Generally when an Athlete "retires" in their prime and comes back that come back is very highly rated because of anticipation. (see: Michael Jordan's regular season return in the early 90's, Sugar Ray Leonard's comebacks, so on). It's as much of a marketing move as anything. A retirement comeback BOOSTS numbers.

Oh, and I think De La Hoya probably had a little something to do with those huge numbers... being the biggest draw in non-heavyweight boxing history and all. Why hasn't Floyd eclipsed 2 million buys without him?


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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
So yeah, he's more exciting than Pac, Gatti, and whoever else was out there. Pac only entered the P4P conversation after Floyd "retired." People pay a lot of money to see Floyd, with his drawing power only matched by De La Hoya when Oscar was in his prime.
You're entitled to your opinion on this one. You're in the minority though. Really, you are. I think Pac entered the P4P conversation after dismantling 2 guys at Welterweight, two of which Floyd fought too. Retired or not, Manny enters the conversation at that point. You don't think Manny deserves to be in that conversation? You do realize the world is talking about Manny as a top 15 all time great now right? You should enjoy the history you're seeing made right now. It's a privilege and it's really special. I feel bad for you as a fan if you're unable to appreciate it.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I don't doubt for a second that Pac is a draw, but the clear evidence is that Floyd is the top draw, period.
So Floyd has a retirement comeback fight that should BOOST PPV buys... fights a Mexican with a much larger fanbase than Cotto AND gets more hype and yet if those numbers are still eclipsed by the fight last Saturday he's still the bigger draw? Again, you're in the minority here but believe what you want.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
I'm not obsessed with "names," I point out good fighters. And it just so happens that good fighters become "name" fighters. Your argument about Mayorga is just plain wrong.
It's not even worth going over WHY the Mayorga fight wasn't a big deal. If you wanna believe wins over Vargas and Michele Piccirillo are big deals you can enjoy that.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
If you claim Floyd is ducking because he hasn't fought Mosley, why aren't you claiming that Pac is ducking Shane too. They haven't fought.
Maybe after 10 years of Mosley calling Pac out you'll have more to say here.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
And I never questioned the talent of Pac's opponents. He's fought many of the same fighters Floyd has recently and Floyd beat them also, and before Manny got to most of them at that. You're the one saying Floyd's opponents suck when Pac has fought the same guys!!!
Apparently weight classes and the challenges of moving UP them means nothing to you. Yes, I'm aware Floyd moved up 15 lbs over 10 years... Manny moved up 39lbs. Just appreciate it and appreciate that a challenge to Manny should NOT be a challenge to Floyd. Especially a guy of Floyd's caliber. That's PERSPECTIVE.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
the Marquez fight....
He beat up a tiny old man... BIG FUCKING DEAL. Get over it, it's not an accomplishment.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
You say fighters age quickly, lose their game quickly. Well, if that's true then Pac's wins over Hatton and De La Hoya mean nothing because they were "too old" by your argument, especially considering Floyd had fought them prior to Pac. If you're going to give Pac credit, you have to give Floyd credit or you're just being unfairly biased.
Again, no appreciation for jumps in weight, no perspective on the difference in what is a challenge to a Pac and what is a challenge to a Floyd.


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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
To claim Floyd, with his long history of good competition, is afraid of either Pac or Mosley is silly.
He ducked Mosley for ten years. I don't really think its silly to say he's afraid of him. When Roy Jones ducked Tarver for 10 years it was because he was afraid... you saw the results. You'll see it again in his fight with Hopkins after ducking him for 10 years. When boxers avoid quality money making competition it's because they are afraid.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Floyd WILL get paid, whether it's 65% or 55%, but why should he have to fork over 45% to 50% to an opponent who hasn't proven to be the draw that he is? Why is Pac's camp demanding equal share with Floyd AND that Floyd come down to their favored weight? Silly.
In 2009 Pac is the bigger draw. A 50/50 split is fair and no, Floyd won't take it. I'll be shocked if he does. Totally agree Shane deserves less, he's not nearly the draw that Floyd is. A 55/45 split is fair there... maybe even more.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
He has 25 KO's and he's not even a power fighter. Ali had 19 non-KO wins, does that mean he's dull?! Was Ray Leonard a chump because he wasn't reckless?
25 KO's against washed up BUMS for the most part. Ali and Ray never ducked guys. they fought legends, fought like men and were exciting for it. Floyd fights to get the points and go home richer. Good for his health, not good for the fans.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
De La Hoya went toe to toe with him for 12 and Floyd gets no credit for heart and perserverance
Did you even see this fight? No one went "toe to toe" with anyone that night.

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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
And your last line about him "depriving" you is the key to your feelings about Floyd. I think you're biased against his accomplishments because you don't like him. Yeah, he has a mouth, but that sells fights. Don't let your dislike of Floyd lead you to incorrectly and unfairly diminish his accomplishments.
You're wrong. I love Floyd and I think he's great for the sport. I like his trash talking, I like his personality, I like his marketing of fights. He brings something more guys should. I love "personalities". I also love his skill set. He's the most gifted and dominating fighter with that skill set that I've ever seen from a technical stand point. I'm not biased, I want him to fight the best, fight guys he could possibly lose to and I want him to put guys like Marquez away that shouldn't even be in the ring with him. I resent his "dull" style because I think he's capable of so much more.

I look at Floyd and see a guy wasting his prime on bullshit. As a boxing fan, I think it's a shame. I'm not a Floyd hater, I just call'em as I see'em.
post #86 of 312
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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
If you can demand that Floyd fight Mosley, why can't I suggest Manny take on Shane, the guy that is also calling for a Floyd fight? Floyd has fought at 154 before, so why does the fact that Shane once fought at 154 mean Pac can't fight him but he can fight Floyd? Floyd has fought between 130 and 154. If you think he should come down to 145 for Manny, why can't Manny go up to 147 to fight Mosley at Welterweight? Again, double standards. You complain about Pac taking on a "challenge of historic proportions" like Ali in his prime is going to walk through the door on Pac. I'm saying Pac and Shane, the two guys who want Floyd should fight an eliminator at a mutual weight, 147. If Pac can fight Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto back to back to back, what's the big deal?

I demand Floyd take on good competition and he has. The same competition as Pac in fact. And he deserves to get paid for it. Why wouldn't Pac have a chance against Mosley? If he's the P4P king, he should be able to win. If Floyd can beat Mosley, and Pac can beat Floyd, then Pac can beat Shane. Simple.

Look, I've enjoyed this back and forth. And your boxing knowledge is legit. But I think your arguments about Floyd are wrong, and I think it's because you don't like his personality, which honestly, I don't like either. But he's gotten it done in the ring against elite competition. I hope he gets Pac, and soon, but to force them to fight with Floyd getting less than what he's worth is ridiculous and discounts what Floyd did his entire career to get to the position he's in now. And to call Floyd a coward is just wrong.
Again... you have no appreciation for weights classes and size. Manny has moved up 39lbs. Why don't you tell Floyd to fight Hopkins? At some point a guy is going to be too big for Manny... there is a reality that we're dealing with, even though his accomplishments make him seem kind of super human.

Also, styles make fights... just because A beats B and C beats A, it doesn't mean C automatically beats B. For the record I think Mosley can beat both Manny and Floyd. Manny because he's much smaller, Floyd because he's nearly as fast, almost as good defensively and hits way harder.
post #87 of 312
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Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
This isn't proof of anything. Oddsmakers aren't analysts and they don't fix odds because of fighter "popularity." I don't doubt Manny has more "admirers," he's not as abrasive as Floyd, but that's different from saying those people think he's the better fighter. This doesn't mean more people will buy this fight because of Manny. This certainly doesn't entitle Manny to a 50-50 split.
Manny's popularity is swaying those odds in his favor. Floyd should be the favorite in this fight and he's not because more people like and are betting Manny. If they're willing to bet on him I'm sure they're willing to buy his fights... popularity = PPV buys. Floyd sells fights, no denying that. Manny does too... EQUALLY in 2009. Hence, a 50/50 split is what is fair
post #88 of 312
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Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Huh? I asked YOU if you were going to use that as an excuse... there's no way Pac was as big then as he is now.
This is what you said: "If you deny Pac was just as or nearly as popular pre-De La Hoya fight you're just arguing to argue." You are the one saying Pac was just as big pre-De La Hoya. You said this. Post #80.

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Generally when an Athlete "retires" in their prime and comes back that come back is very highly rated because of anticipation...
Irrelevant. People bought the PPV because they wanted to see Floyd. Whether their curiosity was piqued by his "retirement," so what? No other boxer who stepped away for any amount of time has done numbers even approaching this.

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Oh, and I think De La Hoya probably had a little something to do with those huge numbers...
I never said De La Hoya had nothing to do with the 2.7 million buys. But before he fought Floyd, he never approached anything close to that. Floyd had just as much, if not more, to do with those numbers than De La Hoya, and they're the only two guys who can and have pulled that off. As for why Floyd hasn't done 2 mil by himself, no one has. No one.

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You're entitled to your opinion on this one. You're in the minority though. Really, you are...
Again, you're wrong. Ring Magazine and almost all boxing experts rated Floyd the P4P king when he "retired." Manny's name wasn't thrown around until after Floyd left. Of course Manny enters the conversation after Floyd has left. And yes, I do know Manny is considered an all-time great, with Floyd thought of as a top ten, even top 5 great.

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So Floyd has a retirement comeback fight that should BOOST PPV buys... fights a Mexican with a much larger fanbase than Cotto AND gets more hype and yet if those numbers are still eclipsed by the fight last Saturday he's still the bigger draw? Again, you're in the minority here but believe what you want.
If. Don't base your argument on numbers that haven't come out yet. Again, Floyd has ALWAYS been a bigger draw than Pac. Look at their numbers for common opponents. Floyd beats Pac every time.

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It's not even worth going over WHY the Mayorga fight wasn't a big deal...
If you want to continue to dismiss Mayorga, go ahead. Just know that you look uninformed.

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Maybe after 10 years of Mosley calling Pac out you'll have more to say here.
Don't know what you're trying to say here. Again, neither Floyd nor Manny have fought Mosley. Is Pac ducking?

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Apparently weight classes and the challenges of moving UP them means nothing to you...
Floyd fought at 106 to 126 as an amateur. He began his pro career at 126 and moved up to as high as 154. 48lbs total, 28 as a pro. 6 different weight classes. Yes, I appreciate the challenges of moving up OR down, which Floyd has done on numerous occasions, as I pointed out previously.

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He beat up a tiny old man... BIG FUCKING DEAL. Get over it, it's not an accomplishment.
Discounting another great fighter, not indicative of someone with appreciation for the sport. Marquez came in at 142, Floyd at 146. Definitely not tiny compared to Floyd. And if you have a problem with Floyd fighting "smaller" fighters, stop calling for a Floyd-Manny fight, you're contradicting yourself again.

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Again, no appreciation for jumps in weight...
See 3 responses above.

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He ducked Mosley for ten years. I don't really think its silly to say he's afraid of him...
Since you're set on claiming Floyd is afraid of Mosley, I'll start calling Pacquiao afraid of Mosley too.

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In 2009 Pac is the bigger draw. A 50/50 split is fair and no, Floyd won't take it. I'll be shocked if he does. Totally agree Shane deserves less, he's not nearly the draw that Floyd is. A 55/45 split is fair there... maybe even more.
The numbers don't back this up; where has Pac ever outdrawn Floyd? A 50/50 split is not fair. And no, Floyd won't take it.

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25 KO's against washed up BUMS for the most part. Ali and Ray never ducked guys...
OK, if you want to argue that (T)KOs against Hatton, Gatti, Sharmba Mitchell, Jesus Chavez, Corrales, and Manfredy are not legit, go ahead. You obviously are just grasping at nothing at this point. Just as Floyd has never "ducked" anyone, Ali and Leonard went years before fighting some top contenders. Ali didn't fight Foreman until 47 fights into his career and 27 fights/10 years after winning his first title. He didn't fight Frazier til 7 years after winning his first title. He didn't fight Ken Norton til 9 years after his first title. Is Ali a ducker now by your logic???

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Did you even see this fight? No one went "toe to toe" with anyone that night.
Split decision (which was a joke), with the biggest differential being 116-112. And by ALL accounts Oscar pressed forward the whole match, rallying near the end. What fight were you watching?

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You're wrong. I love Floyd and I think he's great for the sport. I like his trash talking, I like his personality, I like his marketing of fights. He brings something more guys should. I love "personalities". I also love his skill set. He's the most gifted and dominating fighter with that skill set that I've ever seen from a technical stand point. I'm not biased.... I look at Floyd and see a guy wasting his prime on bullshit. As a boxing fan, I think it's a shame. I'm not a Floyd hater, I just call'em as I see'em.
This is what you said: "People are knocking Floyd because he doesn't fight the best and he doesn't look for the knockout. He's extremely talented and extremely dull at the same time. People don't like safety in the ring, they like reckless abandon and a warrior. This is why guys like Holyfield, Gatti, Manny and Duran were so popular. He's gotta run his mouth leading up to a fight because his production inside the ring just isn't entertaining enough. He's got top 10 talent and no heart or motivation to match it. That's why we're all disappointed. He's depriving us."

You have called Floyd "cowardly," implied that he's ONLY about money, that he hasn't beaten anyone of note, that he's got a big mouth, and that people only watch him because they want to see him get knocked to the canvas. AND NOW YOU SAY YOU LOVE FLOYD AND THINK HE'S GREAT FOR THE SPORT???!!!! You love his skill set and technical ability yet think he's dull???

At this point I'm going to stop debating with you because you have contradicted yourself too many times. You have changed your arguments too many times. You have relied too much on ghost facts and hearsay. You cite numbers that haven't come out yet. You misrepresent numbers that are there for everyone to see. I'm really disappointed by where your arguments have gone.
post #89 of 312
http://www.examiner.com/x-5699-NY-Bo...s-and-counting

To Summarize
Floyd-JMM 1.1 PPV buys
Pac-Cotto 1.6 PPV buys
post #90 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
This is what you said: "If you deny Pac was just as or nearly as popular pre-De La Hoya fight you're just arguing to argue." You are the one saying Pac was just as big pre-De La Hoya. You said this. Post #80.
I mistyped... I meant to ask if you were going to use that misguided bit as a defense. My bad.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Irrelevant. People bought the PPV because they wanted to see Floyd. Whether their curiosity was piqued by his "retirement," so what? No other boxer who stepped away for any amount of time has done numbers even approaching this.
Missed the point. I was saying even with that BOOST he didn't eclipse the Manny Numbers... and Holyfield did it. Tyson too, but after jail not retirement... and Ray Leonard... and Trinidad... again, no historical perspective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Again, you're wrong. Ring Magazine and almost all boxing experts rated Floyd the P4P king when he "retired." Manny's name wasn't thrown around until after Floyd left. Of course Manny enters the conversation after Floyd has left. And yes, I do know Manny is considered an all-time great, with Floyd thought of as a top ten, even top 5 great.
I'm wrong? So it's not possible that Manny had his biggest most impressive fights after Floyd retired? Interesting... apparently nothing happened when Floyd retired and they just threw Manny's hat into the P4P conversation.

Wow... do you really think ANY boxing experts count Floyd as a top 10 (5!?) great? Now you just sound like a Floyd fan that will say anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
If. Don't base your argument on numbers that haven't come out yet. Again, Floyd has ALWAYS been a bigger draw than Pac. Look at their numbers for common opponents. Floyd beats Pac every time.
We're talking about 2009 popularity. You're right though... in 2006 Floyd would deserve more than 50/50. You have truly defended a point there... just not the one we're arguing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
If you want to continue to dismiss Mayorga, go ahead. Just know that you look uninformed.
Yeah... and Floyd is the only guy to come back from retirement and have big PPV numbers... and he's a top 10 (fucking 5!!?) all timer too. I'm uninformed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Is Pac ducking?
No... he's not. He really hasn't even been challenged by Mosley and he's taken VERY challenging fights for himself in the mean time. Again, maybe if Mosley asks Manny to fight over and over again over the next ten years and Manny keeps taking safer fights we can say he's ducking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Floyd fought at 106 to 126 as an amateur. He began his pro career at 126 and moved up to as high as 154. 48lbs total, 28 as a pro. 6 different weight classes. Yes, I appreciate the challenges of moving up OR down, which Floyd has done on numerous occasions, as I pointed out previously.
He was at 106 as a 16 year old amateur. Yeah, Manny was 16 too but he was physically more mature at that age which is why he was able to fight professionally. I don't expect you to be able to understand the differences here at all. I won't bother explaining.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
And if you have a problem with Floyd fighting "smaller" fighters, stop calling for a Floyd-Manny fight, you're contradicting yourself again.
I'm not contradicting myself. Manny can take a heavy punch and deliver just as many. It would be a great fight. I don't think Floyd is a hard enough puncher to hurt him and I think seeing Manny try to lay some heavy hands on him would be entertaining to watch. Manny isn't a slow, small, old fighter like Marquez. At 145 Manny knocks Marquez out because it's not a weight Marquez can (or should) fight at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Since you're set on claiming Floyd is afraid of Mosley, I'll start calling Pacquiao afraid of Mosley too.
Do it, you obviously don't care about looking like a fool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
The numbers don't back this up; where has Pac ever outdrawn Floyd? A 50/50 split is not fair. And no, Floyd won't take it.
It looks like he outdrew him a few days ago. See, again... you win this argument in 2006.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
OK, if you want to argue that (T)KOs against Hatton, Gatti, Sharmba Mitchell, Jesus Chavez, Corrales, and Manfredy are not legit, go ahead.
Since you just put Corrales and Manfredy in there I'm just assuming you don't even bother reading what I type anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Split decision (which was a joke), with the biggest differential being 116-112. And by ALL accounts Oscar pressed forward the whole match, rallying near the end. What fight were you watching?
I saw a fight where Oscar pressed forward for the first half and Floyd avoided mixing it up at all costs. Then when Oscar got tired Floyd countered him solidly for a points victory. "Toe to Toe"? Technically, yes they were both in the ring and their toes were in there as well. But generally "Toe to Toe" refers to close infighting and trading blows. Its okay... you didn't know what it meant. Now you do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
You have called Floyd "cowardly," implied that he's ONLY about money, that he hasn't beaten anyone of note, that he's got a big mouth, and that people only watch him because they want to see him get knocked to the canvas. AND NOW YOU SAY YOU LOVE FLOYD AND THINK HE'S GREAT FOR THE SPORT???!!!! You love his skill set and technical ability yet think he's dull???
Well you said I didn't like him because he had a mouth, so I was talking about his PERSONALITY being great for the sport. And his TALENT is unquestionable. Yes, in the ring he's a bit dull and not as great for the sport as he could be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
At this point I'm going to stop debating with you because you have contradicted yourself too many times. You have changed your arguments too many times. You have relied too much on ghost facts and hearsay. You cite numbers that haven't come out yet. You misrepresent numbers that are there for everyone to see. I'm really disappointed by where your arguments have gone.
I don't even believe you watch boxing. I think you're a casual fan that happens to love Floyd Mayweather. Many of the things you have stated have been stuff that means something to a NON boxing fan. Touting big names without career context. Touting weights without context. Constantly referring back to the popularity disparity between Floyd and Manny PRE-2008 as if it's of any relevance when planning a fight in 2010. You need to study up, watch some old fights, get some context on where fighters were in their careers when they fought, find out why Gatti fighting Floyd was a no brainer for Floyd to win... on and on. You just don't know a lot about the sport. Good luck out there. I'm glad you have put an end to the debate. I couldn't imagine your basis for Floyd being a top 5er ...
post #91 of 312
Timothy Q, you just can't admit that your arguments don't hold water can you. Now that the Pacquiao numbers are in, the one thing I'll give you is that his fight did outdraw Mayweather, for the first time ever. Congrats Pac. Now, every other argument you tried to make, wrong. Once again you changed the context of every one of your arguments (blaming typos and the like) to fit your preconceived opinions of Pac and Floyd. You say I'm an unabashed Floyd fan. Again, you didn't read anything I wrote or you would have seen that I said I didn't like Floyd either, but I admire him as a boxer. The fact that you refute what most experts have said about Floyd being a top 10/5 all-time great and P4P king tell me that you really don't give a crap about the truth if it doesn't jive with your bias against Floyd. I've given nothing but context, giving fights and numbers to back up all my arguments. You haven't. You're a contrarian that would say the sky is green if I told you it was blue. Sad. Please get over the delusion that I know nothing about the sport, because it seems you are the one that really doesn't seem to know that much about it.
post #92 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by dajuice7 View Post
Timothy Q, you just can't admit that your arguments don't hold water can you. Now that the Pacquiao numbers are in, the one thing I'll give you is that his fight did outdraw Mayweather, for the first time ever. Congrats Pac. Now, every other argument you tried to make, wrong. Once again you changed the context of every one of your arguments (blaming typos and the like) to fit your preconceived opinions of Pac and Floyd. You say I'm an unabashed Floyd fan. Again, you didn't read anything I wrote or you would have seen that I said I didn't like Floyd either, but I admire him as a boxer. The fact that you refute what most experts have said about Floyd being a top 10/5 all-time great and P4P king tell me that you really don't give a crap about the truth if it doesn't jive with your bias against Floyd. I've given nothing but context, giving fights and numbers to back up all my arguments. You haven't. You're a contrarian that would say the sky is green if I told you it was blue. Sad. Please get over the delusion that I know nothing about the sport, because it seems you are the one that really doesn't seem to know that much about it.
You lack context and perspective. You don't like my argument because you don't have the capacity to understand it. You just simplify everything because you don't know anything beyond names. There is no reason to continue. Go learn about boxing history though. It's worth the effort.
post #93 of 312
Here you go dajuice7... tell me Manny isn't as popular as Floyd:

http://theboxingtruth.com/article.php?id=1234

And from Dan Rafael on ESPN.com you get a boxing expert's opinion which was just posted and eerily similar to my own. Go figure:

Quote:
Mayweather is hilarious. While Pacquiao tears through guys bigger than him with ferocity -- remember, Pacquiao was a junior lightweight until last year and has fought only four times at heavier than 130 pounds -- Mayweather has avoided the top challenges, for the most part, in recent years. That's why he never fought Cotto or Antonio Margarito or Paul Williams or Shane Mosley.

While Pacquiao has destroyed the bigger Cotto, Oscar De La Hoya, Ricky Hatton (with a single punch in the second round) and David Diaz in his last four fights, Mayweather picked on the much smaller Marquez, needed 10 rounds to get rid of the smaller Hatton and escaped with a split decision against De La Hoya.

One guy (Mayweather) talks about fighting the best, but has yet to face a prime welterweight. The other guy (Pacquiao) takes on the best guys who are bigger than him and does it in an exciting fashion.
post #94 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
You lack context and perspective. You don't like my argument because you don't have the capacity to understand it. You just simplify everything because you don't know anything beyond names. There is no reason to continue. Go learn about boxing history though. It's worth the effort.
This is LOL worthy to put it kindly. Throughout my arguments I provided statistics, references, and put everything into context. You hardly provided anything but a skewed point of view that was laughable in it's denial of the truth. While I referenced boxers, you brought up BASKETBALL. What names, fights, and stats did you ever reference other than Manny PPV numbers that hadn't even come out yet? It's really sad that you are deluded into thinking that you displayed anything even approaching a knowledge of boxing history. If you want to come back to the table with an understanding of boxers and their history, I'd be happy to continue discussing the sport with you. Otherwise, this was an exercise in futility. I don't want to rag on you personally, I don't know you, but from what you posted here, you've got to show a little less stubbornness when it comes to debating.

And again, I'll give you the Manny numbers which were impressive, but don't even begin to ignore the past decade of numbers Floyd has put up versus Manny's numbers - that's a lack of context, perspective, and boxing history right there. Argue against that.

Rafeal is hilarious in that he ignores the fact Mayweather constantly moved up in weight throughout his career to take on bigger boxers and take their titles (see my posts above about weight jumps). He ignores the fact that Pac has never fought Williams, Mosley, Margarito, Castillo, Corrales (and a bunch of other top contenders) and has just faced Cotto. He gives Pac credit for facing De La Hoya and Hatton, yet ignores the fact that Mayweather had already fought and beat those guys before Pac faced them (that "split decision" against Oscar is a joke and he knows it. Every "expert" immediately called that a joke.). And Floyd has fought at Welterweight and Superwelterweight, and more times than Pac has (6 to 3)!

Stop it. The fact that Rafael's "analysis" is a joke, and that you quoted it to back up your claims is ridiculous. How's all that for context and perspective?
post #95 of 312
Let it go... you're just a Mayweather fan that will say anything. Manny nearly DOUBLES Floyd's PPV buys 4 months after Floyd fights a comeback fight and you're still gonna say Floyd is a bigger draw... you're still gonna say Floyd deserves a majority % and you're still gonna site 2006 for your defense. Just keep ignoring facts, keep ignoring popularity, keep ignoring who the fans would rather pay to see in 2009... blah blah blah. The more you type at this point the more ridiculous you sound.

You don't know anything about boxing besides "Floyd is good, everyone he's ever beaten was good and Floyd is good." Well congratulations... Floyd is good. You won the argument. He's a really good boxer. Now that that's out of the way maybe you can learn a little more about the sport and open your eyes to a little more than Floyd's career. You can stop riding Floyd's nuts and take a look at the global phenomenon that Manny has become in the sport in 2009. Can Manny beat Floyd? Who knows... but he beat his ass in PPV buys so give him his respect and his 50%. THERE IS NO DENYING THAT IN 2009 MANNY IS THE MORE POPULAR FIGHTER. You don't have to agree with anything else I've said but PPV numbers equal revenue and fan interest and they were both twice as big as Floyd's only 4 months previously.

My favorite part is that those numbers put Manny in the driver's seat and with everyone but you questioning Floyd's mettle, he needs the fight more than Manny does. That's poetic justice. FINALLY Floyd can't duck challenges for the first time in a long long time and it's going to be great for boxing fans... and quite possibly Floyd's legacy.

That's it. Don't type anymore... you couldn't possibly have anything new to say at this point. I got my PPV evidence to solidify my point. You have nothing new to offer so don't respond unless you're going to agree or just call me a name.
post #96 of 312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Q View Post
Let it go... you're just a Mayweather fan that will say anything.
Funny, I could say the same thing about you and Pac. I've done nothing but objectively analyze the situation, using facts, whereas you have done nothing but deny, deny, deny with unfounded claims. The fact that you've contradicted most of your arguments seems to escape you so your accusations seem ridiculous at this point.

Quote:
Manny nearly DOUBLES Floyd's PPV buys
Really? Bob Arum himself says he expects about 1.3 mil. 1.3. If you want to quote Pac fanboys on the ESPN message boards who are claiming 2-2.5 mil go ahead, but again this is why you sound biased and unknowledgeable.

Quote:
You don't know anything about boxing besides "Floyd is good, everyone he's ever beaten was good and Floyd is good."
If you really believe this than you haven't read a single word I've typed over the past few days. At this point I wouldn't even be surprised given your responses. Only one of us has used boxing statistics and facts, including going all the way back to Ali. And guess what, it wasn't you.

Quote:
You can stop riding Floyd's nuts
Now you just sound like a 12 year old, which I'm starting to suspect you are.

Quote:
THERE IS NO DENYING THAT IN 2009 MANNY IS THE MORE POPULAR FIGHTER.
Manny is clearly the more likeable fighter, Floyd has always been more popular, thus his PPV numbers eclipsing Manny every fight until Floyd stepped away for 2 years and people started talking about Manny. People have always tuned in to see Floyd, and are just now tuning in to see Manny.

Quote:
with everyone but you questioning Floyd's mettle, he needs the fight more than Manny does
This is just ludicrous. Too much so to even dignify a response.

Quote:
Don't type anymore... you couldn't possibly have anything new to say at this point.
At this we can agree. I've made my arguments, you've BS'd your way through this debate. You started the name calling, questioning my status as a boxing fan, calling me obsessed with names, saying I have no perspective, and even insinuating that I was high in presenting FACTS. In the end you came off sounding like a little kid who just found out Santa wasn't real. No wonder you couldn't find anyone to "trade" with on here, you don't know how to discuss the sport because you can't see past your own biases. Hopefully you'll mature a little more so you actually sound like a boxing fan and not someone desperate to sound knowledgeable about something they've proven over and over again that they're not. Peace.
post #97 of 312
All of your "points" and defenses are just as funny as Floyd's... you almost repeat his interviews word for word when it comes to defending the later half of his career. Totally makes sense since he's about as biased as anyone regarding the matter. You're a casual fan that pays special attention to Floyd. Its why you parrot everything he says. Everything you've typed shows this. It's just a joke at this point.

I know you have a hard on for disagreeing with me, so maybe the non-biased third party column will do more for you. It's a far better written case for what I've been saying the last 3 days. I'm not on an island with my opinions but I can't seem to find anything to support your version. Here you go, its worth a read for any boxing fan that's hungry for info:

http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxin...ry-over-cotto/
post #98 of 312
Well, it's looking more and more like Pacquiao and Mayweather won't be fighting any time soon... maybe the end of 2010. Word out there is that Pac wants to fight in March and Mayweather won't do it (there's a shock). Sooooo... Hopkins called it first and said Manny would probably move up to 154 and fight Foreman and Roach is saying the same thing now. Being that they aren't rep'd by the same promotions it sounds like more than talk.

Anyway, anyone that looked forward to a Manny/Floyd megafight might have to wait until September... if it ever happens. Boxing loves shooting itself in the foot.

Oh, and who will Floyd step up and fight in Manny's absence? Mosley maybe? NOPE. There is talk he's going to fight Ricky Hatton's little brother. That's not even a joke. Un-fucking-believable but par for the course.
post #99 of 312
No surprise that Floyd is going to fight yet another guy that poses little to no threat to him. He won't give Mosley a shot because he knows that he could knock him on his ass, at least based on what he did to Margorito.

Sep. 2010 is what I heard as well. They'll fight eventually. It has to happen. Maywether knows that he could make the most $$$ by fighting Pac-Man and vice-versa.
post #100 of 312
Floyd looks like he's gonna accept a March fight. Gotta give props, I figured he would use the "early" date as an excuse to not do it. This will go a long way to fixing up his reputation amongst most boxing enthusiasts.

Manny's side played it pretty well too, I think Floyd was afraid of Manny going up another weight with a chance of losing and diminishing the value of a fight with him in September. I hope Manny takes this one more seriously than he took Cotto... say what you will about the domination, he took way too many clean shots in that one.

May as well start with the predictions. Most people think Manny needs a KO and Floyd would win a decision. I don't agree at all. I think Manny wins more rounds because he'll be the busier fighter and he probably won't get a KO because Floyd is so hard to hit cleanly. Floyd probably needs to knock him out because I think he's a careful fighter that won't push the action and that'll hurt him on the cards.

Final prediction? No fucking clue. I can't wait though.
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