Should People Need a Permit to Raise a Child?

No.

This is the correct answer.

I'm in favor of one-child limits for families, with a permit of some sort being required to have even the one. Adopt all you want, but only one of your own spawn. Something to lower the population growth rate to 0% or a little lower.

If the system were perfect (it's not), this might work. However if the system were perfect, then the world might be, and we wouldn't need birth licenses.

While there are days I'm inclined to agree with you, realistically how would you police it? The people you are trying to prevent from spreading aren't the most responsible bunch. Do we give them involuntary abortions or something? Force them to give the baby up at birth? And who decides you are "smart" enough or "mentally stable" enough? It can be frustrating to watch these idiots pro create but there really isn't much we can do about it.

Hows that for more words?

And anything that side of the Port Mann is a lost cause anyway.

Didn't you get the memo, Werewolf Girl? You're not allowed to discuss this topic.

I'd say that if we ended tax incentives for having more than two children (no more tax credits, you have to pay for an education, etc.) we might begin to curb population growth, but the people who are irresponsibly having children will not make responsible decisions anyway! So what are we to do, make the children suffer? Remove them en masse from their homes? I will say this: any aid we give to "third world" countries should have condoms, birth control, and diagrams on how to use them inside.

What I propose is this: because the alternatives are too horrible to contemplate, we should instead let the earth become overrun until mother nature either invents a super virus to control our populations, or out of control consumption destroys our ecoystems to the extent that most of the population starves to death.

Who's with me?

I'm pretty sure mandatory abortions would be much easier than mandatory sterilization. One sex to terrorize and all that. (Plus chemicals and scissors are more expensive than a swift kick or a gentle shove.)

Actually, Overlord, I genuinely like your proposal about the tax incentives. Every time I have this discussion, I overlook that.

Speaking from the perspective of an African: YES... Abso-fuckin-lutely!

I think we already are, but I assume that was your point?

''I'd say that if we ended tax incentives for having more than two children (no more tax credits, you have to pay for an education, etc.) we might begin to curb population growth, but the people who are irresponsibly having children will not make responsible decisions anyway!''-Overlord

Agree.Most of the people irresponsibly having kids don't care for them financially, so although it would probably help i doubt it would make a great difference.

Absolutely! We all know that the only certain way to prevent population is to allow people to die of preventable causes, to kill people intentionally, or to prevent people from breeding. And to do any of those three things in a meaningful way calls for horrible, nasty, unpalatable actions that no one wants to contemplate.

So, we will do nothing. Maybe education and fairly harmless policy changes like changing our aid/tax infrastructure will help. Or, maybe people will keep making irrational, Octomom-esque life decisions.

I will say this: if biology and evolution have taught us anything, it's that when a species begins to grow unchecked mother nature eventually finds a way to fix the problem.

Hahahahahah!

Licenses are only effective with a criminal deterrent attached. Get the license, or pay a fine or go to jail. People do not want to have a system like that attached to childbirth.

We can have reverse incentives (i.e., we take your child away or make you suffer financially in the form of taxation/fees), but people feel that this "hurts the innocent children."

So we will do nothing and simply hope that people wise up. How's that been working out? Even distributing condoms or birth control for free, which is far cheaper than supporting a child, meets with opposition from magic sky fairy proponents.

Nope. We're circling the drain. You might as well relax and enjoy the show.

Exactly right. Just scurry around, take in the sights, and collect some trinkets while the good times last. Cuz' they're only going to be around for a few more generations.

I'm looking into underground silos as we speak.

Go re-read the first sentence I said to you. It is completely true.

We.are.not.allowed.to.talk.about.this. It's more than a third rail of politics, it's a mother fucking bolt of lightning. Nobody will ever do anything meaningful. Way too much baggage to even broach the subject

But your dealing with folks who don't care to begin with. You think a flyer is gonna help? Best advice I can give you if this really bugs you that much is try and do some good for those that you care about around you and improve their quality of life to some degree, if you can.

And find a silo.

Well, giving the government control to decide is obviously a problem. If people want to take it upon themselves though to stop people, like that stupid bitch who popped out 14 kids she can't care for, before they do it, then hey, that's just street justice, which I can get behind.

And yes, find a silo.

More words

I am sorry for not using enough words. How about I add that Hitler would have appreciated and endorsed the approach you advocate. Also, if you claim it will create or keep jobs/stimulate the economy, I imagine you could find a group of politicians that would probably help sponsor the legislation. For me, I worry for anyone that believes some government group or agency should hold such power.

Hifidog is telling you, we can't talk about this!

By the way, looks like it only took a few dozens post for Godwin's law to kick in. I'm surprised it took that long.

I agree with the idea, but I don't think it has to be something as extreme as a permit. I think maybe mandatory parenting skills courses or something would make more sense. We already have social services to take care of abusive parents. Maybe you could have mandatory social service evaluations after the birth of the child. However, I still say that would be problematic in that the rules being set to govern the parents would be subjective no matter what. What if a parent uses experimental techniques to raise a child, that might seem extreme, but actually work ? Would he/she have to be deprived of their child ? What about parents who have a mutual love relationship with their kids, but are simply not fit to raise them ? Should you split them up ? Govern them with permits ? What if someone that really could be a fit parent doesn't get one ? Depriving someone from driving or owning a gun is different from depriving them of a fundamental human right.

I think the ideal solution is to evaluate parental skills and provide additional governmental support in raising the child for those that need it.

Also, underpopulation is spreading in more developed countries around the world, so adding additional limitations would contribute to a bigger problem.

I do however agree with you in that nothing pisses me off more than an abusive parent. No child should be deprived of a decent family upbringing. If you don't think you can raise a child then having one is the single most selfish thing you can do.

Oooh, somebody brought up Hitler. Time to close the thread.

Overlord fails

Overlord is wrong. Start your ad campaign or whatever it is you hope to do. Let me know if that works out any better than the war on drugs, terror or poverty. (All brought to you by the government) I'm telling you I strongly disagree. I'm also telling you that the amount of faith you place in government seems simplistic. I am also telling you that raising child should not require any of the guidelines you suggest. Many, many, many laws exist to deal with those who raise children imporoperly. I am not suggesting such laws are a bad thing. What I am suggesting is that no government that has ever existed is equiped or capable of undertaking or properly executing the role you would have them assume.

No, he's saying that government is incapable of playing the part you're asking for it to play.

Solution to what....bad parenting? Good grief you are being simple. Yes bad parenting is the natural order of things. So is good parenting. Every parent does a lot of both. Are you really not capable of understanding that no government program is going to fix this "problem". As you are so fond of pointing out, everyone that drives a car has to pass a test and maintain a license. I guess that land you live in doesn't have road rage, speeding, drunk or reckless drivers.

At the risk of repeating what's already been said, the only way to combat this directly that wouldn't be worse than doing nothing at all is with tax breaks/penalties. But I have no idea how that would work, or if it would really attack the source of the problem.

My indirect solution is the same as pretty much every other societal problem. Pour as much money into education as possible.

Okay, now you're just being harsh for the sake of it.

Sure there are road rage, speeding and reckless driving. There would also be ten times that amount if people didn't need to earn a license.

I have to go with Overlord on this one. As much as I have been as up in arms on this topic in the past as you Werewolf, this topic will simply not get addressed in any way shape or form by politicians or the media as the general populace of all western democracies would pounce on them if they did.

Werewolf, you're circling the final frustrations before reaching a deep, abiding cynicism about this fucked up species that we've fooled ourselves into believing is the 'highest' form of life on this planet - when we are Earths cancer, nothing more.

I say let yourself slip peacefully into resigned misanthropia and let nature take its course, because it'll be shrugging its shoulders and being rid of us in 3 or 4 more generations anyway and giving us the fate we as a myopic, selfish, self destructive creature, thoroughly deserve.

I like this idea, your entire post reminded me of the reality of humanity and why I hate them so much.

Well maybe we should outright sterilize them and make them get an abortion. Bah, hopefully 2012 comes to pass and we all become X-men or Miracleman takes over.

Maybe this thread will save the world.

This sadly will not happen because the huge majority of mankind falls into one of two positions. It's either 'God said to go forth and procreate you godless monster!' or 'OMG totalitarianism! Stalin! Mao! Hitler!'

Me? I'm waiting on the Rapture. After that, maybe we can get some real progress going.

Another major problem is when you mention needing a required education level: guess who gets the majority of education in this country? I guarantee, the minorities and below poverty level people will be up in arms, get lawyers and fight you tooth and nail on grounds of inherent racism. And let's face it, this is America and racism is everywhere.

Just let the water wars of the the next decade, the severe droughts and the destruction of the oceans curb the populace. Because Mother Nature is very, very good at what she does.