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When is a man a monster then exactly ?

post #1 of 29
3/16/09 at 9:11pm
Thread Starter 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7946657.stm

I understand the guy's a lawyer, but claiming that someone is polite, sane and normal yet can enslave his own daughter, rape her repeatedly for years and let the children they've had grow up in a cellar (not to mention letting one of them die), is a "human being" and not a "monster", seriously stretches the imagination. If this guy doesn't qualify then we might as well strike that label altogether.

I'm also confused as to how being "objective", as the lawyer claims, would in anyway help the guy's case. It doesn't even look like they're trying to paint the guy as a sociopath, just a regular guy that kinda felt like turning his daughter into his sex slave for years.

To be more subjective, in my opinion, this is a rather vivid example of the horrors of human potential.
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post #2 of 29
3/16/09 at 9:29pm
Yeah read about him earlier today, words can't describe how horrendous that is...how would one exact revenge on him....
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post #3 of 29
3/16/09 at 9:39pm
The prosecutor did a good job today outlining the monstrosities. The defending lawyer just bullshitted around the subject.
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post #4 of 29
3/16/09 at 10:39pm
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post #5 of 29
3/16/09 at 11:04pm
The real culprit is his brother, Liquid Fritzl.
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post #6 of 29
3/16/09 at 11:08pm
Some dogs just need to be put down.
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post #7 of 29
3/16/09 at 11:54pm
Actually, no. Death Penalty got no purpose here, or at all basically.

Make a big fuss about it, so everyone knows his face who watches the news. Put him in jail for life, making it exceedingly clear that (this is true) a death penalty costs MORE than a life sentence in prison for the state.
Basically, put him away forever the cheapest way, have him live with this thing for years, and make sure the homies in his new hotel got a clue who he is.
Child Molesters dont have a happy prison life in germany. I dont want to imagine it over there.

Death Penalty is expensive, easy to go bust on a technicality or some such, and doesnt do anything life sentence cant do better and cheaper. Why pay for such a creature?

For Americans who dont know but are interested: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
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post #8 of 29
3/16/09 at 11:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaunshar View Post
Actually, no. Death Penalty got no purpose here, or at all basically.

Make a big fuss about it, so everyone knows his face who watches the news. Put him in jail for life, making it exceedingly clear that (this is true) a death penalty costs MORE than a life sentence in prison for the state.
Basically, put him away forever the cheapest way, have him live with this thing for years, and make sure the homies in his new hotel got a clue who he is.
Child Molesters dont have a happy prison life in germany. I dont want to imagine it over there.

Death Penalty is expensive, easy to go bust on a technicality or some such, and doesnt do anything life sentence cant do better and cheaper. Why pay for such a creature?

For Americans who dont know but are interested: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty
Dude, I know all about the costs of the death penalty. The world might ultimately be a better place for the legal systems that make it inefficiently costly to execute freaks like this but that doesn't mean that execution wouldn't be justified and, in some sense, preferable.
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post #9 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:04am
Preferable to who I wonder? The guys going to rot in jail, what good does killing him do other that satisfy a certain element of societies need for blood and vengeance?
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post #10 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Preferable to who I wonder? The guys going to rot in jail, what good does killing him do other that satisfy a certain element of societies need for blood and vengeance?
I'll grant that in a world where human knowledge and our ability to gather it is limited, abandonment of the death penalty is fine in order to avoid the likelihood that someone, somewhere will be wrongfully convicted (something that happens unnervingly often). Our world, as it happens. I'll further grant that plenty of people convicted of murder and other crimes some would deem worthy of the death penalty can become of value to other criminals and the world at large.

But lets not pretend for a moment that this person's life has any value and that our world is a better place, directly or indirectly, with him still sucking air. In a world where our knowledge is perfect I have no moral qualms about punching his ticket and I don't even have to call it an act of bloodlust. Bloodlust could allow for all kinds of immoral acts like torture, which even against this scum are immoral. Call it putting order to chaos.
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post #11 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:21am
But what value does the death penalty have? Do you think he'll be a repeat offender or something?

I hate these threads because everybody gets their big dicks swinging. You wouldn't punch his ticket. You would passive aggressively spill your drink on him or something.
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post #12 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:22am
Are we going to start this conversation again, where otherwise rational people start championing the death penalty?
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post #13 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
I'll grant that in a world where human knowledge and our ability to gather it is limited, abandonment of the death penalty is fine in order to avoid the likelihood that someone, somewhere will be wrongfully convicted (something that happens unnervingly often). Our world, as it happens. I'll further grant that plenty of people convicted of murder and other crimes some would deem worthy of the death penalty can become of value to other criminals and the world at large.

But lets not pretend for a moment that this person's life has any value and that our world is a better place, directly or indirectly, with him still sucking air. In a world where our knowledge is perfect I have no moral qualms about punching his ticket and I don't even have to call it an act of bloodlust. Bloodlust could allow for all kinds of immoral acts like torture, which even against this scum are immoral. Call it putting order to chaos.
Who are you to pass that judgement tho?

Plenty of people who deserve to live end up dying as well, no one said the world was fair, but that doesn't give the state the right to kill someone, ever.

Devins right - would you happily kill this guy with your bare hands? If the answer is 'no', then what are you advocating really?
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post #14 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
But what value does the death penalty have? Do you think he'll be a repeat offender or something?

I hate these threads because everybody gets their big dicks swinging. You wouldn't punch his ticket. You would passive aggressively spill your drink on him or something.
Well, it is BIG...

Look, maybe I'm just fucking around and probing my own moral intuitions here. Honestly, I can't rationally justify the death penalty. I have these really powerful moral intuitions to the contrary, but as powerful as I think our moral intuitions are in rooting out right and wrong this is probably an instance of their limitation.

Happy?
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post #15 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:32am
No, not happy. Murder is murder.
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post #16 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
Devins right - would you happily kill this guy with your bare hands? If the answer is 'no', then what are you advocating really?
That's not fair, I'd probably do it. Maybe.
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post #17 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL View Post
Well, it is BIG...

Look, maybe I'm just fucking around and probing my own moral intuitions here. Honestly, I can't rationally justify the death penalty. I have these really powerful moral intuitions to the contrary, but as powerful as I think our moral intuitions are in rooting out right and wrong this is probably an instance of their limitation.

Happy?
What's moral about that stance? That's vengeance, and it's vengeance for a crime that wasn't even committed against you or yours. It's kind of sick.
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post #18 of 29
3/17/09 at 1:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
What's moral about that stance? That's vengeance, and it's vengeance for a crime that wasn't even committed against you or yours. It's kind of sick.
I get what you're saying. I've taken classes on the subject, taught by professors who write books on it. Believe me I get it, and for the most part you're right. The thing is though, when I think about why I would want this person dead the reasons don't immediately seem vengeful. But perhaps it's more an extension of my own misanthropy than anything.
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post #19 of 29
3/17/09 at 2:09am
There are myriad reasons why the death penalty is a bad idea and should be abolished. These include:

1.)Potential for police misconduct;
2.)Potential for juror/judicial abuse due to societal prejudices (race, gender, mental illness, etc.)
3.)Potential for evidentiary errors and erroneous verdicts;
4.)It's too damned expensive given the endless appeals and special confinement requirements;
5.)It cannot be rationally applied in such a manner that vengeance could not be interpreted as the only logical reason for its existence, and it's a bad idea for societies to indulge in non-utilitarian philosophies of justice.

You'll notice I didn't list "no one deserves the death penalty."
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post #20 of 29
3/17/09 at 5:38am
As membership of the European Union requires the abolition of the death penalty the question is academic.
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post #21 of 29
3/17/09 at 6:32am
Avoiding the always downward spiraling debate over the death penalty I think there is something to be said about the initial question here.

I think the labeling of this guy as a monster is a typical reaction to cope with the unspeakable deeds of this man. This case crosses the boarders of what most sane people can imagine. So we humans tend to label those horrendous crimes in terms that fit our set of values that can hardly be catalouged. It is hard to draw the exact line between a mere criminal and evil monster in abstract terms.

Another interesting aspect about this whole case is the reaction of the public and the media (as expected). The level of voyeurism and calling for blood over here is astounding and somewhat sickening. Point in case, our biggest and most fucked yellow paper "reimagined" him in action and came up with this recreation:


Looking at this I think it is way more telling about the mindset of the painter rather than having any impact or enlightening meaning for the reader other than reaffirming sets of believe and catering lower instincts.
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post #22 of 29
3/17/09 at 8:50am
The guy that drew that seriously needs psychiatric evaluation. He clearly has stuff to work out.

And as for the guy being a monster, sadly he's human. It would be easier for everyone if worthless pieces of shit like him could easily be cast aside as monsters, or demonically possessed or cursed or what have you.
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post #23 of 29
3/17/09 at 9:16am
Well, since he's going to be locked away for quite some time, I'm sure his new friends in his cell block will be lining up to help teach him what sexual abuse really is...

and I find that a far more comforting notion than putting him to death.
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post #24 of 29
3/17/09 at 9:20am
I seriously doubt that he will end up in a "regular" prison though.

This case is made for a forensic psychiatric facility for criminals. So I guess vengeance fantasies about him in the shower with some soap and other inmates won´t pan out exactly like the TV movie of the week would let one believe.
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post #25 of 29
3/17/09 at 9:31am
Well, Jan...

One can always hope.
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post #26 of 29
3/17/09 at 9:37am
I don't know exactly about other countries but over here in cases like this, jail means death. Quite a few years ago there was this guy that tried to rape his son and ended up killing him because the boy kept shouting for help. When the cops got him they kept him hidden 'for his own protection'. When some journalists managed to sneak a peak during his transfer to jail you couldn't even recognize him from the bruising and the swelling. And when he got to jail, he was placed in the general population and the really bad stuff happened. He lasted about two weeks until he 'hung himself' in his cell. The coroner found that he was tortured, beaten and raped in multiple occasions. No one at the time made a big noise about it but it still kind of rubs my 'liberal sensitivities' the wrong way.

What I'm trying to say is that the death penalty is an easy way out in these cases.
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post #27 of 29
3/17/09 at 2:23pm
I'd be interested to know what kind of environment he grew up in.
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post #28 of 29
3/17/09 at 2:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
What I'm trying to say is that the death penalty is an easy way out in these cases.
Yep. I'd rather someone have to live out the rest of their lives with the consequences of their actions than to see the state punch their clock and give them the dignity of dying.
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post #29 of 29
3/17/09 at 2:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
I don't know exactly about other countries but over here in cases like this, jail means death. Quite a few years ago there was this guy that tried to rape his son and ended up killing him because the boy kept shouting for help. When the cops got him they kept him hidden 'for his own protection'. When some journalists managed to sneak a peak during his transfer to jail you couldn't even recognize him from the bruising and the swelling. And when he got to jail, he was placed in the general population and the really bad stuff happened. He lasted about two weeks until he 'hung himself' in his cell. The coroner found that he was tortured, beaten and raped in multiple occasions. No one at the time made a big noise about it but it still kind of rubs my 'liberal sensitivities' the wrong way.

What I'm trying to say is that the death penalty is an easy way out in these cases.
Child molesters, child killers, people who rape teenagers or older women, people who kill young girls or older women... they are completely put aside from the general population here in Puerto Rico. There's a group here inside the prisons called the Ñetas and they will FUCK YOU UP if you've donde any of the things I listed. Anybody seen or heard of that video of the guy who breaks a bottle inside his asshole and has shards of glass and blood pour out? That's a day in the life of a child rapist in Puerto Rican prisons. And I'm not even kidding, that's a well-documented "remedy" of the Ñetas for those kind of guys.

There was a kid here, probably 18 or 19, who got pissed off his grandfather didn't loan him money so he beat him to death and stole his wallet. He got transferred from prison to prison four times in two weeks because he kept getting beat senseless. He got killed in less than a year.

Prison is a motherfucker. Don't let ANYONE tell you otherwise. It is NOT somewhere you wanna go.
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