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Carnivale Reappraised

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
So, it's five years since Carnivale shrugged off their airwaves and all this talk of it in Rain Dogs thread got me into the mood to bust out my DVD Boxsets and go back to the show. Even after just watching the pilot I'm blown away by how beautiful this show looked and the quality of performance the show was able to draw out of people.

In fact at the moment Clancy Brown and Nick Stahl are the only two who seem a bit out of place, but that's largely because Stahl's got to deal with the 'dangerous outsider' aspect of his entrance and Brown is forced to be somewhat muted by the needs of his character arc. But everyone else just fits perfectly and the mythology, even as someone who knows what is going to happen, is done with so much conviction its still kind of enthralling.

This show must have cost an absolute fortune to pull together and I'm still in awe of Daniel Knauf managing to secure a budget for a show which is probably as niche as you're going to get. I'm only one episode in and already the show feels denser than a lot of its contemporaries.
post #2 of 38
I heard a lot of praise of this, and I love Brown, but the reason why I never bothered to watch it, or Deadwood for that matter, is that it got canceled. I know I'm missing something, but I hate starting a series knowing there's no end.
post #3 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
I heard a lot of praise of this, and I love Brown, but the reason why I never bothered to watch it, or Deadwood for that matter, is that it got canceled. I know I'm missing something, but I hate starting a series knowing there's no end.
Even still, what's there is great. How can you just write things off like that? Is is really that hard to deal with?

They both have satisfying endings (all things considered).
post #4 of 38
Thread Starter 
There kind of is and there isn't. The series was set up with the idea of a six season, three chapter run, with each chapter covering a certain point of time and having a definitive start and end point. We got the, satisfying, conclusion to the first chapter but the bigger story was vaguely left hanging.
post #5 of 38
Clancy Brown (as Brother Justin Crowe) creates a truly haunting character in this show. It's truly a career making performance that sticks with you, especially as his character arc progresses.
post #6 of 38
I found the ending to be pretty excellent. In fact, I was quite shocked at the time to hear that it was meant to continue.
post #7 of 38
Thread Starter 
It is a fantastic performance, but it takes a few episodes for his character to fully come into his own. I think once you've had the church burnt down he starts down that path and his reading of excerpts from the Bible in the introduction to the Babylon episodes sort of cements him as being one of the driving forces in the series. It's kind of a shame because Brown is so great that by the time you get to Season 2, even though Stahl is doing excellent work himself, you're drawn more to Justin than you are to Ben.
post #8 of 38
Deadwood does have a satisfying ending-- much is left open-ended yet there's a definite sense of resolution to each plot point and character arc.

Carnivale does not have a satisfying ending, because it leaves far too much open and escalates the show's mythology too much for season 2's finale to adequately handle. Really a huge shame that it got canceled, I think.
post #9 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
How can you just write things off like that? Is is really that hard to deal with?
I'm not writing things off. I'm not 17, I have a busy life, and a finite amount of time I get in the front of my television. I may get to these 2 series (I sampled the first 2 Deadwood episode, and liked it), but getting chopped ain't a plus. It's good to know their season finale made good endings, and I just might go to them after being done with my current TV season.

But I heard the exact thing that Agracru said.
post #10 of 38
Was the cancellation of the show merely a question of ratings?
post #11 of 38
Coupled with the insane budget.
post #12 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quarant View Post
Coupled with the insane budget.
I just checked on wikipedia and the budget was nuts, like the cost of a small feature film per episode. No wonder the thing looked so good.
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
I'm not writing things off. I'm not 17, I have a busy life, and a finite amount of time I get in the front of my television. I may get to these 2 series (I sampled the first 2 Deadwood episode, and liked it), but getting chopped ain't a plus. It's good to know their season finale made good endings, and I just might go to them after being done with my current TV season.

But I heard the exact thing that Agracru said.
Even still... it's worth it. Yes, sometimes those types of shows are not worth being left hanging, but this one certainly is.

As Spike said, you get a satisfying conclusion to the first "book" of what was meant to be a "three book" series. So in one sense, it is satisfying, though you're left wishing you could see the rest of the big arc.

But to me, it's the good sort of wanting. It's the kind of thing that if you "squint," could see it being meant to have that kind of open ending. It leaves you discussing what could've/would've happened.

There's too many great moments in that show to never see it if you're a lover of great TV/film.
post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
There's too many great moments in that show to never see it if you're a lover of great TV/film.
I'd say the same thing to you with regards to The Shield.
post #15 of 38
Just spotted the thread title and don't want to read for fear of spoilers, but just wanted to stop by and say my wife and I are just about to start Season 2 and we're blown away thus far. It is pretty fucking bleak though. Jesus. But no less brilliant for it. Stahl's character got on my tits a bit, I have to admit - he slightly overdid the petulance required of his character - but small criticism. Can't wait to see where it goes.
post #16 of 38
Thread Starter 
Season 2 is brilliant and Stahl becomes a lot more interesting and personable in it. But once again Clancy Brown is the dominant force in Season 2 and at times he's legitimately fucking terrifying.
post #17 of 38
I still haven't finished watching all of it (I've 2 episodes left to watch, and I should've watched those years ago), but I've been trying to get people in to it, for the longest time. It is really quite beautiful to look at, and some scenes show off a cinematography that I wish big budget films would aspire to.

I won't say much else, apart from THANK YOU, to Spike, for creating the thread and getting me excited about watching the last two episodes.
post #18 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
I heard a lot of praise of this, and I love Brown, but the reason why I never bothered to watch it, or Deadwood for that matter, is that it got canceled. I know I'm missing something, but I hate starting a series knowing there's no end.
Without question, you should see Deadwood. I wouldn't hurry up to watch Carnivale. Its a good show, but its terribly inconsistent.
post #19 of 38
Cynthia Ettinger is really hot in this show.
post #20 of 38
Thread Starter 
So seen as I'm a massive egoist and all, I thought I'd throw together some thoughts for each episode of Carnivale I see.

1.1: Milfay

* The set up of Ben and Justin is really great, if a little on the nose. I love that Ben is essentially a sweet, kind, nurturing sort of person, who has had to bury that part of himself to survive whilst Justin fights to maintain the facade of peacefulness and kindness.
* Ben's moment with the grieving mother is still one of my favourite character beats and it goes a long way to making him more likeable as the series goes on.
* I love how Clancy Brown really plays Brother Justin as almost 'getting off' on the biblical punishment, for a moment he's embracing the fire and brimstone old testamentness and it's only when he has to time to think about what's going that he allows himself to be compassionate. It's interesting because the first time I saw the series I always assumed that Justin was a good man getting eaten inside by his potential to be a prophet, watching it with hindsight you can still see the conflict but you can also see the man that he will become just under the surface.
* I love how Brother Justin not only wears the most threatening vestments you could imagine but he presides over his flock on a throne, the camera angles really highlight this 'regal' element of the character
* For a show famous for being so slow burn it is really odd that Sophie's third scene is her attempted rape. It's odd because it doesn't really seem to impact her character arc much and seems to be purely their for the purpose of getting Ben back to the Carnivale and in peoples good books.
* The scene outside Mr. Chin's is still one of my favourite moments from Season 1, it's just got this over the top baroque quality to it which really sells you on Justin's darkness. The snow turning to blood is such an obviously ominous symbol but he takes it as a standard communication from the lord.
* Lodz is an odd character because really I never quite understood what the show wanted from him. He doesn't really fill out the cast as an atmosphere kind of character like most of the rousties, but his place in the mythology is sketchy at best. If he's designed to be an intoloper then he plays it perfectly, it's just odd having a character who doesn't fit easily into any facet of the show.


1.2: After the Ball is Over

* It's interesting that Justin and Ben essentially start out with one power that is similar. They both seem to be able to make people comprehend themeselves, but whilst Ben is more understated Justin once again uses his skill like an old testament angry god. With Ben its enlightenment, the woman coming to the realisation that the baby is dead, with Justin its a forced lesson, Templeton having to accept the visceral horror of what he does.
* Clancy Brown plays that scene perfectly, his gnashing punchy words mixing together the ideas of a sermon and a conman. Once again he relishes the chance to exert power over someone else, even if his ultimate aim is 'good'
* It's also interesting seeing the hierarchal structures in both 'settlements'. It's more obvious at the church, but the way the Carnivale folks seperate themselves from regular folks is kind of interesting.
* The only production issue I ever had with the show was the obviously studio filmed look of the First World War stuff. It still bothers me a bit, but it lends into this sense of theatricality which all of the flashbacks seem to have.
* What's impressive is that the show feels fully in charge of its mythology already, it knows the pieces, it knows the twists, it knows what its characters has to do and as such it can drop hints and moments in those 'flashes' which only really start to make sense towards the end of the season and in one case towards the end of the series itself.
post #21 of 38
This might be a bit spoilerish: the only thing that killed me about the cancelation of Carnivale was not being able to see more of "The Omega". That was an incredible reveal at the end, but I wanted to see more.

All in all, I still love this show. What a gem.
post #22 of 38
I really liked what I saw of this show, about half the first season. I thought Michael J. Anderson was pretty fantastic, especially in the trial episode after the girl gets murdered. The Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge homage was pretty great, too. I need to watch it/the rest of it again.
post #23 of 38
Stahl and Brown (rightly) get a lot of the credit on the show but Anderson was just as great. Particularly in the second season when the shit hits the fan with Management and he's left scrambling to keep the crew together.
post #24 of 38
Everyone ups their game in the second season, particularly Amy Madigan and the always fantabulous Toby Huss. But all anyone can do is just barely stop John Carrol Lynch from completely stealing the entire series. And on a show where Clancy Brown plays the motherfucking Antichrist, that's no small feat.
post #25 of 38
The old Carnivale threads had some pretty great discussion (I used to be able to find them; however, my archive skills aren't working today). In fact, it was the first season Carnivale thread that finally got me to join the messageboards (after I had been following the main page for a year or two).
post #26 of 38
I'll just say that the moment when Jonesy realizes how much Ben healed him makes me tear pretty much everytime and when I read that the intention was to have him playing professional baseball at the start of s3, I mourned the series even more.

And because it has to be mentioned: the score and its effect on atmosphere.
post #27 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by HBarr View Post
The old Carnivale threads had some pretty great discussion (I used to be able to find them; however, my archive skills aren't working today). In fact, it was the first season Carnivale thread that finally got me to join the messageboards (after I had been following the main page for a year or two).
I have unadulterated love for everyone who participated in those threads. It was a small group, but we bonded quickly.

Edit: I've found a few of the threads...

http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34137

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-70962.html

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-73051.html

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-74406.html
post #28 of 38
Fantastic show.

The Babylon two parter is easily my favorite and the final scene where Samson shoots the only living soul there and then see's awful site in the building across the way gets me every time. Michael's face is just devastating.
post #29 of 38
Season one was slow, meandering and very hit-and-miss. But I kept watching because there was nothing else on TV like it. Glad I did. Season two is one of the most engaging seasons of television I have ever seen.

Okay, I'm going inviso-text here, since some just started watching, but how beautiful is it when Hawkins brings Jonesy back from near death and Jonesy realizes his leg his healed, that amazing smile creeping across his face?
post #30 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Francis Wolcott View Post
I'll just say that the moment when Jonesy realizes how much Ben healed him makes me tear pretty much everytime and when I read that the intention was to have him playing professional baseball at the start of s3, I mourned the series even more.

And because it has to be mentioned: the score and its effect on atmosphere.
This is when the already great show went into another stratosphere for me. Chokes me up every time.

Also, Schwartz... you might want to invisotext that bit about Clancy's "role," no? That would really ruin a lot of the ambiguity at the beginning for any virgins.

Or are we considering this thread safe for spoilers/open discussion for those who have seen it?
post #31 of 38
I figure since it was "Carnivale Reappraised", it stood to reason those participating would have at least appraised it once.
post #32 of 38
Holy shit! I stole Wolcott's inviso-text without even realizing it! Goes to show just how powerful and all-around amazing that scene is.
post #33 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
I figure since it was "Carnivale Reappraised", it stood to reason those participating would have at least appraised it once.

Yeah, after I wrote my post I figured that was the best reasoning.

Plus, who REALLY suspects Clancy Brown is going to really end up the good minister?
post #34 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva View Post
I have unadulterated love for everyone who participated in those threads. It was a small group, but we bonded quickly.

Edit: I've found a few of the threads...

http://chud.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34137

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-70962.html

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-73051.html

http://chud.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-74406.html

Man, I had a lot of time on my hands back then. Good times!
post #35 of 38
I kinda figured that this would be a spoilery thread from the start.

I will say that I agree about Brown being Season 2's dominating force, but I always felt like Tim DeKay was Carnivale's hidden secret weapon, providing a lot of the show's heart and soul. He's totally removed from the greater conflict between Stahl and Brown (for the better part of the season anyways), and provides a strong human perspective in the midst of a cast filled with people boasting special talents and gifts (or those who are privy to the secrets of said gifted people, like Samson).
post #36 of 38

The AV Club has begun recapping the show. I found the first column just okay, but it made me eager to rewatch the show.

post #37 of 38

I think I'm really in sync with Van DeWerff's take on the show. Fascinating, often unlike anything on TV, brilliantly atmospheric, great world-building, but the plot is a big mass of nothing for most of the show's run and the Joseph Campbell structure really gets in the way.

post #38 of 38

I had never heard of this show before until about a month ago.  My boyfriend and I had a random moment and decided to get a new season to watch at night sense our latest addictions like Criminal Minds, Law and Order, and Supernatural had all become repeats and we were bored with it.  We ended up at a local used store where he had spotted the two seasons.  I love movies of that time period, but was unsure how much we would actually like it and so ended up with just the first one.  We ended up still feeling unsure after viewing the first season, but couldn't help but wanting to know more.  Now with two eposides left, I decided to check online for more seasons and to my surprised it got canceled?  I'm not even done watching, but can't help but feel disappointed.

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