CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › Focused Film Discussion › OBSERVE & REPORT POST-Release discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

OBSERVE & REPORT POST-Release discussion - Page 3

post #101 of 303
4/12/09 at 9:51pm
Yes on the interpretation of the date, no to the virgin/whore thing, especially since it's hinted that Nell used to fuck quite a bit prior to realizing she wanted to wait for the right person. Can't remember what Ronnie's reaction to that knowledge was, but I don't think he made any judgments on that fact.

I think the value judgment is made on making the slutty demoness someone who fits so very easy in with shallow, insipid mall culture and comes off as the norm, and the awkward but genuine virgin saint as someone who's just trying to make the best of being forced to be there.
Reply
post #102 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:01pm
Man, after the 10/10 review and all the gushing... I was more than a little disappointed with this one.

It was interesting, and I really admire what Hill did with it. But mainly, I just didn't find it very funny. And I'm someone who really enjoys dark humor.

I DID get big laughs out of Oswalt, the Pena/drug sequence (especially the beatdowns in this section; they were fucking hilarious), and the flasher chase/shooting (man, I've heard of shrinkage, but fuck me. I can't believe that poor bastard had the balls to show his lack of a manhood like that). But that was literally it.

The rest of the time I just sat there watching jokes fly right by me without so much as a chuckle. Yes, the "non-joke" parts worked pretty well, but this WAS a comedy.

I guess I'm glad you all enjoyed it so much, even though I don't agree with the "classic" status already being bandied about.

I hope it does well though so that more films with balls get made. I give it high marks for aiming for something different, even though I think it really, really missed the mark in a comedic sense.
Reply
post #103 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Justin Clark View Post
Yes on the interpretation of the date, no to the virgin/whore thing, especially since it's hinted that Nell used to fuck quite a bit prior to realizing she wanted to wait for the right person. Can't remember what Ronnie's reaction to that knowledge was, but I don't think he made any judgments on that fact.

I think the value judgment is made on making the slutty demoness someone who fits so very easy in with shallow, insipid mall culture and comes off as the norm, and the awkward but genuine virgin saint as someone who's just trying to make the best of being forced to be there.
But there's no middle-ground. Also, yeah, Nell used to fuck a lot but now she's the good girl because she completely abstains from sex? It's not bad for women to want sex.
Reply
post #104 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:33pm
Why are you assuming that the film approves of ANY of these characters? The movie thinks Nell is a dipshit.
Reply
post #105 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:35pm
I mean, you're looking at it from such a weird PC sensitive guy position. Everybody in this movie is a fucking joke, except MAYBE the Captain O'Landers kid.
Reply
post #106 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:47pm
I'm glad I saw it because it did some interesting things but it was a major disappointment...

Manohla Dargis had a great analysis where she pointed out that the movie wussed out every time it could have been truly transgressive and dark. Brandy approves of the sex, the flasher lives, Ronnie doesn't kill the gang bangers, Ronnie is released after beating up a dozen cops.

The movie exists in this weird zone between dark comedy and Apatowian Improv humor and for my money succeeded at neither. Seth Rogen seemed game to take it to some really dark places though and parts were excellent.
Reply
post #107 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:53pm
Except for the Aziz Ansari and Rogen "fuck you"-off, there's nothing even approximating Apatow style in this entire movie.
Reply
post #108 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Why are you assuming that the film approves of ANY of these characters? The movie thinks Nell is a dipshit.
Yeah, it sure does when Ronnie says "that's kinda weird." after she explains her born again status. Even though she's meaning well, the scene does paint her just as strange as anyone in the film.
Reply
post #109 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
I DID get big laughs out of Oswalt, the Pena/drug sequence (especially the beatdowns in this section; they were fucking hilarious), and the flasher chase/shooting (man, I've heard of shrinkage, but fuck me. I can't believe that poor bastard had the balls to show his lack of a manhood like that). But that was literally it.
For me, these were some of the film's most conventional moments. I thought the skateboard beatdowns were pretty amusing, but they weren't highlights. The great and most hilarious moments come when Ronnie gets delusional, and when the film's reveling in his sociopathic behavior.

I really, really loved it.
Reply
post #110 of 303
4/12/09 at 10:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Why are you assuming that the film approves of ANY of these characters? The movie thinks Nell is a dipshit.
When?
Reply
post #111 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
Ronnie doesn't kill the gang bangers, Ronnie is released after beating up a dozen cops.
I thought it was pretty dark when Ronnie goes to the police station and brags about killing them. We know he didn't, but the fact that he would lie about that to gain approval says a lot about him. Ronnie embellishing that moment is what takes it to that dark extreme.
Reply
post #112 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Fuchs View Post
Except for the Aziz Ansari and Rogen "fuck you"-off, there's nothing even approximating Apatow style in this entire movie.
I felt Michael Penas entire role and drug trip, the flasher (i.e. male nudity = instant funny), the aziz role, the Danny McBride scene, the Patton Oswalt scenes all felt very much out of place and more of the goofy improv Apatow vein of humor.

Every time the movie would begin to cook it would derail with some moment which was too broad or light for the tone it was creating. Ronnie's mental journey is completely muddled and goes up and down the whole film and that is partly due to the fact that the movie doesn't commit to being dark or psychotic or daring outside of just being un-p.c. and violent.

The scene that best captured the movie was the Ray Liotta reveal that Ronnie wouldn't be a cop. It was a funny and awful and mean and realllly uncomfortable with no escape hatch for the audience of a easy laugh.
Reply
post #113 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
I mean, you're looking at it from such a weird PC sensitive guy position. Everybody in this movie is a fucking joke, except MAYBE the Captain O'Landers kid.
Sorry. Didn't mean to consider the movie in a way that could be anything but praise-worthy. Carry on.
Reply
post #114 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Depth View Post
I thought it was pretty dark when Ronnie goes to the police station and brags about killing them. We know he didn't, but the fact that he would lie about that to gain approval says a lot about him. Ronnie embellishing that moment is what takes it to that dark extreme.
I disagree. I think the fact that he went back and got the kid was pretty fucked up and if they had shown that, that would have been a big turning point. It plays as more of a punchline.
Reply
post #115 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:07pm
Alright, after thinking about it some more (like a few more minutes), I'm in the wrong on this one. They are caricatures that fit in perfectly to Ronnie's black-and-white world.

I guess my first thought just came out of my reflexive hatred of poorly-written female characters since there are so many and most play into geek-fantasies (Hey, a woman that shares all my hobbies AND will be sexually pro-active AND has no personal baggage whatsoever? Score!)

Apologies.
Reply
post #116 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg View Post
As for the "date-rape" scene, I will say a few things: First, I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as "he's date-raping her" (and Hill's conscious enough of dark attitudes that he wouldn't cut around that just to make Ronnie more likable; this is a film that embraces darkness). The film goes out of its way to make Brandy an active participant where the drinking and drugs are her idea. That doesn't mean its necessarily consensual (she's blitzed out of her mind) even if she says "Don't stop motherfucker" but it's hard to have Rogen as the rapist in this scenario because he really does think she wants him. For him, the night is romantic and while we see the reality of making out with her vomit-filled mouth, this is love for his character. Of course, this is open for interpretation and I like that the film leaves it open and further confounds its audience.ll or Rogen but I do find that aspect more upsetting than the "date-rape" scene.
It is completely cut and dried. If you have sex with a women who is unable to give informed consent due to intoxication due to substances and you are completely sober you are raping her.

The line where she says "don'tstopmotherfucker" just makes it so a bunch of audience members won't think it's wrong because they think that isn't rape. So essentially they pussy out of truly making Ronnie delusional and rob the scene of any real shock or danger.
Reply
post #117 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
It is completely cut and dried. If you have sex with a women who is unable to give informed consent due to intoxication due to substances and you are completely sober you are raping her.

The line where she says "don'tstopmotherfucker" just makes it so a bunch of audience members won't think it's wrong because they think that isn't rape. So essentially they pussy out of truly making Ronnie delusional and rob the scene of any real shock or danger.
I just can't figure how it's rape with out the presence of a rapist. You don't call it murder if you accidentally kill someone.
Reply
post #118 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
The line where she says "don'tstopmotherfucker" just makes it so a bunch of audience members won't think it's wrong because they think that isn't rape. So essentially they pussy out of truly making Ronnie delusional and rob the scene of any real shock or danger.
Daffy, I also thought this movie played it a lot more safe than it could have, but are you seriously disappointed that you were "robbed" of a rape joke?
Reply
post #119 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:23pm
The "Don't Stop" moment is the "what's grosser than gross" topper. I don't think it's meant to excuse what's happening, it's not an out, it's actually worse that she's cool with it.
Reply
post #120 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg View Post
I just can't figure how it's rape with out the presence of a rapist. You don't call it murder if you accidentally kill someone.
There was a rapist. Ronnie. Ronnie was having sex with a woman without informed consent.
Reply
post #121 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by blunderbuss View Post
Daffy, I also thought this movie played it a lot more safe than it could have, but are you seriously disappointed that you were "robbed" of a rape joke?
What? No I was saying that it turns the scene into another cheap joke that most people won't even get.

If they remove the line and he's having sex with her unconsciously and STILL thinks it's love? That's delusion and also fits the character more without resorting to a laugh line to make the scene less unpleasant.
Reply
post #122 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:33pm
It's a comedy. That's why they have laugh lines.
Reply
post #123 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
It's a comedy. That's why they have laugh lines.
Well it's either an unfunny comedy or an unconvincing character portrait of a psycho.

Maybe I just didn't laugh very much so I was hoping the film was going to be more demented but instead a lot of the jokes fell flat because they were surrounded by a weakly developed Taxi Driver shell.
Reply
post #124 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:40pm
No, it's funny. I laughed a lot.
Reply
post #125 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
There was a rapist. Ronnie. Ronnie was having sex with a woman without informed consent.
Under the common law, it would be tough to convict Ronnie of rape.

Under the Model Penal Code, Ronnie would not be guilty of rape.
Reply
post #126 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
The scene that best captured the movie was the Ray Liotta reveal that Ronnie wouldn't be a cop. It was a funny and awful and mean and realllly uncomfortable with no escape hatch for the audience of a easy laugh.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the "escape hatch" was Ben Best walking out of the closet saying "I thought this would be funny, but it's kinda sad."
Reply
post #127 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
Under the common law, it would be tough to convict Ronnie of rape.

Under the Model Penal Code, Ronnie would not be guilty of rape.
You are right. What would you call what he did? Does a woman need to give informed consent?

Besides the main point is that he was doing something reprehensible for shock value which was then lessened with a gag.
Reply
post #128 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:53pm
Her saying "why are you stopping motherfucker" tells you so much about who this person is. It's actually a character moment.
Reply
post #129 of 303
4/12/09 at 11:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Depth View Post
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the "escape hatch" was Ben Best walking out of the closet saying "I thought this would be funny, but it's kinda sad."
That's true.
Reply
post #130 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cornelius Cardew View Post
You are right. What would you call what he did? Does a woman need to give informed consent?

Besides the main point is that he was doing something reprehensible for shock value which was then lessened with a gag.
If I was Ronnie's defense attorney, I'd argue that she took the pills from him and took them, knowing they would produce an intoxicating cocktail with the drinks she was downing. I'd also argue that Ronnie had a good faith and reasonable belief (albeit through insanity) that she wanted to have sex with him. Plus, there was no force or threat of force. He also didn't compel her to submit either.

Sorry for getting off topic.
Reply
post #131 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
If I was Ronnie's defense attorney, I'd argue that she took the pills from him and took them, knowing they would produce an intoxicating cocktail with the drinks she was downing. I'd also argue that Ronnie had a good faith and reasonable belief (albeit through insanity) that she wanted to have sex with him. Plus, there was no force or threat of force. He also didn't compel her to submit either.

Sorry for getting off topic.
It's also unclear if Ronnie 'gets' how those pills will effect her.
Reply
post #132 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
It's also unclear if Ronnie 'gets' how those pills will effect her.
Yeah, that too.
Reply
post #133 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:08am
In the end I don't think people should be finding reasons why it's less horrible but understanding that the whole point was the show the depths of Ronnie's delusions. He thinks the whole night is an amazing date.
Reply
post #134 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:12am
Definitely. I'm sorry I said rape and side-tracked the thread with that.
Reply
post #135 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
He thinks the whole night is an amazing date.
And for what it's worth, the reason he stops is because he's concerned that she isn't moving.
Reply
post #136 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
And for what it's worth, the reason he stops is because he's concerned that she isn't moving.
There's some definite shades of gray in that scene but I think at best he's a creep for fucking someone that blitzed out and at worst, a rapist (if an accidental one). I think the fact that he stopped to see if she was okay trends him towards the "creep" category.
Reply
post #137 of 303
4/13/09 at 12:53am
Damn right it's creep category. Why would you make out with someone who just vomited?
Reply
post #138 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:11am
Ronnie is a horrible human being.
Reply
post #139 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:11am
As an intense and loving display of acceptance?
Reply
post #140 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:47am
Ronnie doesn't even realize he's in control of the situation. He's just grateful for the chance to be there. When she says "don't stop," and he redoubles his efforts, it's because he's worried about disappointing her and getting thrown out.

Obviously, it's still pretty horrible and not something that makes for a comfortable laugh, but the power dynamics at play prevent it from being a rape in the most conventional sense. It's not like the movie isn't aware of the situation or is glorifying it in any way.
Reply
post #141 of 303
4/13/09 at 3:50am
Just wanted to point out that Nell says her cast will come off in a month. Ronnie healing in that time is just "movie healing". In real life, he'd have a scar on his nose, probably other scars from various scrapes he endured during the fight. Also, his bruises probably wouldn't have completely faded. Having said that, he'd look a helluva lot better even after a month so this doesn't really stretch reality anymore than any movie that features someone getting the shit kicked out of them only to look the same as they did before their beating a short time later.

This was an incredible movie. It also completely and totally absorbed my Rogen fatigue and spat it back in my face as a chewed up mass of "now I want to see Funny People".
Reply
post #142 of 303
4/13/09 at 6:35am
Ronnie is on pills and drinking right along with Brandy.although not all fucktup

Although this movie does really stretch believabilty at times I don't think it's so unbelievable that Ronnie could get his job back at the end. He tells the victim, police, and mall owner that he believes that the perv will come back to kill brandy. When the perv changes his tactics and actually takes a run at brandy i don't see it as too much of a stretch that she might fear for her life. Is him getting his job back after he comes out of nowhere and brains the guy with a bat or takes his head off with a closeline somehow more plausible. (Seeing as either could be fatal but less visceral to the audience.)

Devin is right when he says that ronnie is right. Just because we think he's full of shit or doesn't believe what he himself is saying doesn't make it so, or make him any less right (albeit massively overzealous.)

Also, the crackheads were probably dead. A compound fracture and a blow to the skull, getting domed repeatedly with a baton, and a stomp directly to the nose of an already battered and downed opponent. Then left on an unlit corner in the middle of the ghetto. All possibly deadly.
Reply
post #143 of 303
4/13/09 at 11:46am
It's funny, for all this talk about reality vs. dream worlds and who was date raping who... I was completely on board with all that.

My one and only gripe was that 99% of the attempts at comedy fell flatter than flat (for me, anyway). Up until the drug montage, I almost rolled my eyes at every single attempted joke that didn't involve Patton Oswalt.

I'm going to see it again, because this is DEFINITELY one of the most glaring examples of the internet geek-press overhyping something to death. But even still, that's not going to make me laugh at sub-par, juvenile jokes (and yes, I'm aware that even the drug montage falls under that category. But for me, that scene had the style and tone to make it actually funny). Not that I can't get down with that sort of stuff, but there's a style and finesse to making things like that funny, and this film and it's actors just didn't do it for me (with the exception of a few isolated scenes).
Reply
post #144 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
In the end I don't think people should be finding reasons why it's less horrible but understanding that the whole point was the show the depths of Ronnie's delusions. He thinks the whole night is an amazing date.
This is exactly the line of argument I've been using against the jackasses on Onion AV Club's message boards who are all sore about the date rape scene. The comedy doesn't come from "haha, dumb slut getting raped," the comedy comes from Ronnie thinking they're making passionate love. People are pissed because in the AVC interview, Hill said he originally didn't even want Brandy to have a line--he wanted it to be a brief scene of Ronnie fucking a passed out Brandy.
Reply
post #145 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:39pm
It's the age-old problem - people are judging the filmmakers and not the characters. No one seriously advocates rape. Ronnie is a truly sick, depraved individual. But I shouldn't have to say those things because EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS.

Does everyone think that William Munny's shooting of the billiard hall at the end of UNFORGIVEN was morally right? Fuck no. We're watching an alcoholic get off the wagon and destroy everyone around him, and Munny actually knows this and does it anyway. Ronnie doesn't even know how fucked up he is.
Reply
post #146 of 303
4/13/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beldar View Post
This is exactly the line of argument I've been using against the jackasses on Onion AV Club's message boards who are all sore about the date rape scene. The comedy doesn't come from "haha, dumb slut getting raped," the comedy comes from Ronnie thinking they're making passionate love. People are pissed because in the AVC interview, Hill said he originally didn't even want Brandy to have a line--he wanted it to be a brief scene of Ronnie fucking a passed out Brandy.
Glad Hill reconsidered that scene because that one line brings it back to "slimy creep" territory instead of date rape territory. Huffpost is all over that scene now as well......

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_185827.html
Reply
post #147 of 303
4/13/09 at 2:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
It's the age-old problem - people are judging the filmmakers and not the characters. No one seriously advocates rape. Ronnie is a truly sick, depraved individual. But I shouldn't have to say those things because EVERYONE ALREADY KNOWS THIS.

Does everyone think that William Munny's shooting of the billiard hall at the end of UNFORGIVEN was morally right? Fuck no. We're watching an alcoholic get off the wagon and destroy everyone around him, and Munny actually knows this and does it anyway. Ronnie doesn't even know how fucked up he is.
Exactly. God forbid a film should respect its audience enough to show the reality of a morally ambiguous character.

I'm sure the critics will throw around something about how Rogen's audience consists of teenaged frat boys who already don't respect women, but if they (edit: the fratboys) honestly think of Ronnie as a role model, they should be locked up in an asylum.

Here's Hill's quote:
Quote:
AVC: In the Times piece, they describe the scene you’re talking about as Seth Rogen’s character forcing himself on Anna Faris. Is that how you perceived that scene?
JH: [Pause.] I dunno. I’ve always kind of liked scenes that you talk about how fucked-up they are. I would have been happy without any dialogue in that scene. I wanted to show them just having sex and her passed out, and I thought that would have been funnier. But I think I have a darker sense of humor than most people. So at the end, [Faris’ character] is okay with it. [Laughs.] And that was like, “I’ll shoot it both ways.” So I actually shot it both ways. I just kept the camera rolling. There’s like a line that’s “We’re okay laughing, and you’re pushing the envelope.” But you’re not really pushing the envelope until you cross that line where a lot of people don’t go along with you. I tried to do it in a few scenes in this movie, where a lot of people aren’t going to go along with the film or with what we’re trying to do. Hopefully that means we’re actually pushing the envelope. [Laughs.] You know what I mean by that? I think if you’re really pushing the envelope, you have to not include everybody, if that makes sense. Or else it’s not really pushing the envelope.
Reply
post #148 of 303
4/13/09 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeypants View Post
I'm going to see it again, because this is DEFINITELY one of the most glaring examples of the internet geek-press overhyping something to death.
Um, Watchmen?
Reply
post #149 of 303
4/13/09 at 3:33pm
You know what makes me sick to my stomach? Cocksuckers who complain about things being overhyped by the internet press. Sorry that we have to work a little hard to support movies that we love so that we can convince you to get your lazy, ignorant asses out of the house and not to wait for DVD. Seriously, fuck you guys.

Please stop reading all websites like this so you won't be 'overhyped.' If we don't like a movie we get shit for being out to get it, if we do like a movie we get shit for overhyping it. Here's some shit: suck the shit right from my asshole.
Reply
post #150 of 303
4/13/09 at 3:49pm
A lot of the movies you guys hype are great because they're NOT for everyone, or even most people. Or Joeypants.
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Focused Film Discussion
CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › Focused Film Discussion › OBSERVE & REPORT POST-Release discussion