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The Star Trek Thread

post #1 of 4009
Thread Starter 

With the new flick coming out, I figure it'd be best to keep the thread for the new film to remain on its own topic by making this thread that'll cover everything Trek from 1966-2005.

So how should I start this? Trek Rankings:

-UPDATED MAR 3 2013-

Shows:
1. Star Trek
2. Deep Space Nine
3. The Next Generation
4. Enterprise
5. Voyager

Films:

1. The Wrath of Khan
2. The Undiscovered Country
3. First Contact
4. The Search for Spock
5. The Voyage Home
6. The Motion Picture
7. Star Trek
8. Insurrection
9. Generations
10. The Final Frontier
11. Nemesis


Edited by Mr. Stockslivevan - 3/3/13 at 11:52am
post #2 of 4009
You know, I've been catching some second season episodes of TNG on cable lately. My impression had always been that this season was the worst one, and while there are some absolute stinkers in there ("The Royale", "The Outrageous Okona" and "Shades of Gray" among them), Season 2 gave us the first Moriarty episode, Riker as the exchange officer on the Klingon ship, the trial to determine if Data was property or sentient, and the first Borg episode. The show was still finding itself, but this second season was a lot better than I remembered.
post #3 of 4009
Thread Starter 
TNG Season Two had plenty of stinkers, but I agree, it was heading the right direction by that point. All the show needed then was Michael Piller to take over as show runner then BAM in Season Three there was a huge improvement in quality ("Who Watches the Watcher", "The Defector", "Yesterday's Enterprise", "The Best of Both Worlds" and more)
post #4 of 4009
side note, I HATED the first two seasons uniforms.

post #5 of 4009
Because I'm not a disgusting nerd, my knowledge of STAR TREK lore is only passing. I have only seen the Original Crew movies. Here is a ranking:

1. Voyage Home - a delightful romp that showcases the team's chemistry, which is the best aspect of Star Trek. I get an adrenaline rush when Kirk dives in to release the whales, and the tears flood when they cavort in the sea after releasing them. Even Spock cannot resist a smile!
2. Wrath of Khan
3. Search For Spock
4. Undiscovered Country - bonus point for a sizzling Iman performance
6. Motion Picture
7. Final Frontier - bonus point for brief "DIE HARD on an Enterprise" portion. Minus point for Uhuru's sexy striptease

Best Kirk Quotes in no particular order:

* Don't take my painawayINEEDMYPAIN
* Maltz! CHOIEEEE CHOOOO!
* You. Have personally. VOUCHED?
* I. Have had. Enough of. YEEEUUUU.
* You keep. MISSING. The TARGET.
post #6 of 4009
Shows

1. DS9
2. Original
3. TNG
4. VOY
5. ENT

Movies
1. The Wrath of Khan
2. The Undiscovered Country
3. The Search for Spock
4. The Voyage Home
5. First Contact
6. Generations
7. The Motion Picture
8. Nemesis
9. Insurrection
10. The Final Frontier

EDIT: I'm sure I'll catch shit for not putting Nemesis last but here's the thing. Those last three are absolutely shit films and I wouldn't defend a one of them. But in the end Nemesis has a space battle with some semi-decent action at the end and that's the biggest plus I can find in any of those films.
post #7 of 4009
How dare you Paul. I must be a disgusting nerd then because I have seen all of the movies! I like all of them, except The Motionless Picture, but here is my ranking of the movies from most favorite to least.

1. First Contact
2. The Final Frontier (That "Go Climb a Rock" t-shirt isn't regulation!)
3. Nemesis
4. Generations
5. Search for Spock
6. Wrath of Khan
7. Insurrection
8. The Voyage Home
9. Undiscovered Country (I love the moment after Iman morphs into Kirk, when Bones blankly stares into the camera. Also I always laugh at Kirk's sudden retard strength that lets him jump 30 feet and tackle a dummy replica of the president)
10. The Motionless Picture

TV Shows
1. TNG
2. ENT
3. TOS
4. VOY
5. DS9 (Could never get into it)
post #8 of 4009
Thread Starter 
I've been Netflixng throught VOY lately. I've only seen a few episodes on TV, but never got into it. So far? It sucks. It had so much potential to be a great Trek show with a premise it had and instead of being a show about a Federation ship on its way home with limited supplies, it's about a ship that frequently gets massive hull breaches, exploding consoles, losing multiple shuttles, reckless uses of torpedoes and ect ect all while in the next episode the ship is in brand new condition with everything working without consequence is an increasingly annoying cliche.

But because I am an arrogant nerd, I'm attemping to watch every episode like I did for TNG and DS9 when they were on Spike TV. After VOY I'll get on ENT, which at this point looks so much more interesting than the dull show I am currently watching.
post #9 of 4009
Voyager has its rewards, mostly about mid-way through its run. Enterprise's first three seasons are one long procession of missed opportunities.
post #10 of 4009
Ouch, going from Voyager directly to Enterprise. You are a brave soul, although I will say Enterprise had the best pilot of any of the shows outside of TOS. A very promising mix of TNG and TOS sensibilities, with all sorts of Vulcan and Klingon intrigue. Instead Enterprise winds up being a giant waste of potential. So disappointing.

Here's my list:

shows
1. TNG (followed this religiously...it honestly hasn't aged well, but damn did patrick stewart keep that show together)
2. TOS (would be #1 if not for so many stinkers in Season 3. Season 2 is epic).
3. DS9 (Like so many others, I couldn't get into this at first and gave up around S2. I eventually caught seasons 4-7 via re-runs, and they're very strong. Longer arcs, the Dominion war, elevated stakes all around, so different for a Trek show. I heartily encourage another shot at this).
4. ENT (a handful of good eps, but an overall waste of what should have been an easy concept)
5. VOY (great concept, horrible, horrible execution. And horrible casting to boot, there's an astouding lack of charisma on this show).

films
1. Wrath of Khan - a great film, not just a great Trek film or great sci-fi film.
2. The Motion Picture (director's edition) - I know I'm in the minority here, but it's smart and I've always really enjoyed the 'clean' looking production design. Plus how can you overlook the glorious Goldsmith score.
3. Search For Spock - a decent enough extension of II
4. Voyage Home - completing a nice little trilogy of character-focused treks
5. First Contact - is a little by-the-numbers (Die Hard on the Enterprise and a much over-used 'let's-go-back-in-time-and-help-someone-invent-something-we-need-in-the-future' plot), but is quite entertaining.
6. Generations - a bigger budgeted episode of TNG that's completely outshined by...welll...the bigger budgeted eps of TNG ('Best of Both Worlds' in particular).
7. Insurrection - I think I've flushed this from memory. I do remember they filmed a lot at Mammoth Lakes...weird seeing places I used to fish with my family pass as another world.
8. Nemesis - barf
post #11 of 4009
Thread Starter 
Speaking of Pilot episodes:

1. The Cage - Just a damn good sci-fi show. I would have liked to see this one get picked up, not that I don't like Kirk and Co.
2. Emissary - Mostly for character, and Sisko's arc here is well done.
3. Where No Man Has Gone Before - Pretty good as an average episode, but not as a pilot.
4. Broken Bow - Has some good stuff going, but the Klingons are tacked on, should have been used way later.
5. Caretaker - Okay, but there's hardly any character here I can root for, so how should I expect this pilot to get people to continue watching?
6. Encounter at Farpoint - I like the stuff with Q. However, the whole Farpoint mystery? ZZZZZzzzzZZZZZZ.
post #12 of 4009
Outside of the extended arcs I don't think the average DS9 episode is as strong as the average TNG episode, and sometimes it can feel a bit stodgy and dull, but when those arcs hit their stride it really created some of the best star trek output ever. What really makes DS9 for me is the size and strength of the supporting cast. The recurring characters were often given as much development as the main crew, if not more so.
post #13 of 4009
Where's 'The Animated Series'?
Most of those episodes are better than 'TOS: Series 3'
post #14 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fritz Chrome View Post
Outside of the extended arcs I don't think the average DS9 episode is as strong as the average TNG episode, and sometimes it can feel a bit stodgy and dull, but when those arcs hit their stride it really created some of the best star trek output ever. What really makes DS9 for me is the size and strength of the supporting cast. The recurring characters were often given as much development as the main crew, if not more so.
I'd go along with that. Especially, about the supporting players.
post #15 of 4009
What I hated about Enterprise was how they felt the need to make Archer and the crew the ones behind so many of the touchstones in the Trek canon. It was like Berman and company wanted to tell everyone THEY were the ones who made Trek what it was, not the original series. It was bad enough when Archer ended being the reason for the human-looking Klingons in the original series, but then he ends being the one to found the Federation? This whole show was a monument to Berman's misguided sense of importance.
post #16 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
side note, I HATED the first two seasons uniforms.
Not my favourite either. First Contact's greatest contribution to Trek was its uniforms.
post #17 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
What I hated about Enterprise was how they felt the need to make Archer and the crew the ones behind so many of the touchstones in the Trek canon. It was like Berman and company wanted to tell everyone THEY were the ones who made Trek what it was, not the original series. It was bad enough when Archer ended being the reason for the human-looking Klingons in the original series, but then he ends being the one to found the Federation? This whole show was a monument to Berman's misguided sense of importance.
Nailed it. Even to a casual viewer, it was obvious that Enterprise (amongst other things) suffered from Lethal Weapon 2 - "make the antagonist the cause of the protagonist's woes - syndrome. Way too neat.
post #18 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
What I hated about Enterprise was how they felt the need to make Archer and the crew the ones behind so many of the touchstones in the Trek canon. It was like Berman and company wanted to tell everyone THEY were the ones who made Trek what it was, not the original series. It was bad enough when Archer ended being the reason for the human-looking Klingons in the original series, but then he ends being the one to found the Federation? This whole show was a monument to Berman's misguided sense of importance.
QFT.
post #19 of 4009
Graham, I started watching Star Trek: The Animated Series first, as I was, "A Wee Lad" (Scotty, numerous episodes of Star Trek) of 5.

My Fave Star Trek Series, Episodes, and Films, in order of preference is-
1) Star Trek
2) Star Trek TAS (I've always considered it to be year 4 and 5 of the Enterprise 1701's original 5 year mission, "To Boldly Go Where No MAN Has Gone Before" Captain James Tiberious Kirk's Narration on Star Trek.
3) Star Trek Deep Space Nine

TNG, Voyager, Enterprise fit the latter part of the phrase "It was the best of times, It was the worst of times" Paraphrasing Spock in Star Trek II "Clearly It is the worst of times" I refer to the quality of most TNG episodes and all of Voyager and Enterprise.

Favorite Episodes-
1) Space Seed
2) Errand Of Mercy
3) The Trouble With Tribbles
4) Day Of The Dove
5) Gamesters of Triskelion
6) Friday's Child
7) Doomsday Machine
8) A Piece Of The Action
9) Assignment Earth
10) Arena

Films
1) Star Trek II
2) Star Trek III
3) Star Trek VI
4) Star Trek IV
5) Star Trek TMP (Director's Cut)
6) Star Trek (I expect JJ Abram's new Trek to be here)
7) Star Trek V
8) Star Trek First Contact

Star Trek Insurrection, Nemesis, and Generations are in the Worst Star Trek Films Category.

Fave Composers
Alexander Courage
James Horner
Jerry Goldsmith

Of course I did also work at Pocket Books Star Trek Department for almost 12 years, So that gets listed here as well. Again Paraphrasing Spock "It was the best of times to work at the Star Trek Department" I met my favorite Authors, Peter David, Gar And Judith Reeves-Stevens, Michael Jan Friedman etc. I went to the openings of Star Trek Films, and read scripts for DS9, TNG, Voyager And Enterprise. Even on the latter 3 series, the scripts always read better, than when I watched the actual episode. Live Long And Prosper
post #20 of 4009
'Deep Space Nine' is my favourite series. Am I alone?

EDIT: Except for Jakespeare?
post #21 of 4009
I just want to talk about the movies. I won't rank them, except to say that my favorite is Wrath of Khan.

I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I hope it's of interest.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture
- Used to hate this. It's grown on me. Probably the most cinematic and epic of all the movies, it has a great scope to it, visually. The musical score is majestic and the story has some interesting ideas. Twist ending revealing the identity of V'ger, is not exactly early Shyamalan. But the movie works if you look at it as a contemplative mystery, rather than the action adventure it should have been.

Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan
- Love this movie. One of the great sci-fi adventure films of the 80s. Put it right up there with Empire Strikes Back in terms of quality and entertainment value. As I am more of a Star Trek fan, it actually is superior to the Star Wars sequel in my opinion (and at least it has an ending). Montalban is one of the great villains. "Fram hells harrt. Eye stab-a-tee... For het's-sek. Eye speet... My-las-bread. Ah-tee"

Star Trek III: The Search For Spock
- Good stuff. Feels like a big budget episode of the original series, complete with an awkward climactic fight scene on an alien planet. Leonard Nimoy did show, however, that he had the chops to direct an action picture. It begs the question of why he decided to make chick flick comedies for the rest of his directorial career. Love Christopher Lloyd's villain (who receives a most satisfying comeuppance) and Kirk's immortal dispatch line (already mentioned by McCartney).

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home
- The first of Nimoy's chick flick comedies that I was referring to. Except it's done so as a Star Trek film, which makes it miles better than the "Men and Baby" movies or that stupid movie where Gene Wilder is a writer who has to donate his sperm... or something. I don't remember the title or what it was about. I just remember it sucked nads. But STIV has the goods. It's a very entertaining film and has sentimental value for me because it's the first one I can remember seeing in a theater and it basically got me into Star Trek.

Star Trek V: The Final Frontier
- One of my most anticipated blockbusters in the summer of 1989. Although it wasn't as good as Batman, I still remember liking it and even buying one of those Starlog-produced souvenir magazines. I also had a big red collector's tumbler to drink soda out of on hot afternoons. I liked it fine back then. Looking back, it's not that great. But it gives DeForest Kelley some great Oscar clip moments comparable to when he's acting like a psychopath in III. George Murdock gives an interesting performance as "God." William Shatner showed that he had the ability to make a big budget sci-fi action picture look about as slick as an episode of Babylon 5.

Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country - I really enjoy this political action thriller. I like how they got away with including an R-rated murder sequence, and all they had to do for PG13 was make the blood purple. Kurtwood Smith is in it. And Christopher Plummer is great. His death scene is hilarious, and you get to see Kirk thrust his fist up and shout "Fire!" again. Always a plus. Only quibble: They should have kept the original intention of making Kim Cattrall's character Saavik. It would have made the final reveal more emotionally devastating and effective.

Star Trek Generations - My least favorite of all the Star Trek films. Here they had an opportunity to do something epic. A fantastic adventure involving both crews. All the players were still very much alive and could have participated if they'd worked a bit more on making a better story. Instead they "team-up" the two captains in a very half-assed way, humiliating Picard (not that it matters much to me, but still) by having lanky Michael McDowell kick the shit out of him, while Shatner does just that to McDowell minutes later. Then, killing off Kirk is unnecessary and, to top it off, they give him a galactically stupid death. Better than getting shot in the back. But not much better. Only saving grace: Time is the fire in which we burn.

Star Trek: First Contact - An enjoyable sci-fi actioner that works in that capacity even if you've never seen an episode of Star Trek or watched any of the other movies. In that sense, it has a lot in common with Wrath of Khan. But I am not as engaged by the TNG characters, so there's not much else I can say. It's an entertaining, good film. Alice Krige, who I thought was kind of a hot MILF in Stephen King's Sleepwalkers (Remember? When Ron Perlman gets his fingers bitten off and screams, his mouth takes up the entire screen), is an utterly repulsive villain here. I never found her attractive again after this. That's an effective mix of good make-up an performance.

Star Trek: Insurrection - Only saw it once. So I don't remember much about it, except it was kind of boring and F. Murray Abraham is the bad guy. Oh and Picard has an affair with Doc Ock's wife. Or something. I think you see Picard with his shirt off. This is the one where they treat Patrick Stewart like Sean Connery. Yeah. I remember now. I didn't like it too much.

Star Trek: Nemesis - I honestly don't understand how this gets so much hate. Maybe I'm not a big enough fan of TNG to care, but I think - much like First Contact - it works as an isolated sci-fi action picture. It doesn't require familiarity with the series in order to be enjoyed and I remember there was some good action in it. Yes, it's pretty much a remake of Wrath of Khan with Brent Spiner as Spock, but I think Stuart Baird delivers a slick package nevertheless.

Ok. Hope that wasn't too unbearable for you guys. I just wanted to get it all out of my system at once.

Thanx for reading.
post #22 of 4009
Dear God...Fleed just paraphrased Dickens via Spock (wasn't it Kirk who said it?...yeah, I know it was Spock's gift...Damn this Retnox; can't see a goddam thing...)
post #23 of 4009
The animated series was worth just for the Kzinti showing up in that one episode.
post #24 of 4009
Graham, Kirk may have said the line, but I cannot remember.
post #25 of 4009
Kirk reads it from the book, then Spock offers an explanation as to why its relevant.
post #26 of 4009
Enjoyed your thoughts on the movies, Erix.

I don't share the level of anti-Generations sentiment common here. It's not a classic film by any means - let alone one of the better Trek films - but at least it's not as derivative and instantly forgettable as Nemesis.
post #27 of 4009
Generations is a nice bridge between old and new, but Undiscovered Country had such a killer send-off to the original crew, this felt a little redundant.
post #28 of 4009
KHAN is king and none of the other movies come close to it.
Voyage Home is a fun 80s romp. First Contact is the best Next Gen movie by far. Picard shows some emotion and James Cromwell dances. I think a lot of Final Frontier is pretty watchable. It really drags after the Sybok/Kirk/Spock/Bones SHARE YOUR PAIN scene, though.

1. Khan
2. The Voyage Home
3. Search for Spock
4. First Contact
5. Undiscovered Country
6. Final Frontier
7. The Motion Picture
8. Generations
9. Insurrection
10. Nemesis
post #29 of 4009
You know, there's a germ of a good idea in Final Frontier, the idea that our fears help make us what we are. It's a storyline that could have come straight out of the original series, and there's actually some good bits regarding the bonds between Kirk, Spock and McCoy. But those pieces are lost in a mass of bad effects and bad writing, with even worse attempts to match the comic tone of Voyage Home.
post #30 of 4009
One reason why I've been annoyed with Generations, was that I felt it was not really necessary to pass to baton from Kirk to Picard.


(the score I do really enjoy)
post #31 of 4009
Thread Starter 
I like how they tack on that montage with William Shatner riding his horse. It reminds me of how self indulgent Mission: Impossible II was with Tom Cruise's mountain climbing (even Shatner did that in STV!).

I'll be posting some reviews of VOY after viewings. On another forum I have already posted ones for Seasons One through Two, but I won't post any of them unless you're that interested, so I'll put in my recent input, which is basically the start of Season Three.

"Basics, Part I"
Knowing the Kazon by this point, I already knew that it was a potential trap for Voyager, and these characters should have seen it coming. They know Seska is a manipulitive Cardie bitch, they could have figured out that the whole reason she impregnanted herself is so she could have an opportunity like this to fool them. Culla is a terrible villain. Instead of being a villain you can sympathize with like Dukat or one you love to hate like Winn, Culla is just annoying as Neelix. I like the Suder character, they'll have him killed off in the next episode, a big mistake. I think he would have made an interesting recurring character. So far every recurring character has been nothing more than cardboard cut-out stand ins with lines only made to further the plot than develop the characters. Again, DS9 brutally rapes VOY when it comes to that.

So my thoughts on VOY after the first two seasons? They could do better. They've done plenty of interesting things so far, but they really push it with Voyager taking heavy damage. I mean they were really fucked in "Deadlock", which I assumed we'd follow the Voyager that didn't take any damage, but we go with the crippled ship and on the very next episode their ship is fully intact and repaired with zero consequence?

I declare "Deadlock" to be the episode when the writers started getting lazy. Note emphesis on the word "started", they still respect many aspects of the premise of the show such as the consequence of killing 300 Vidiians and being cautious of any encounter in later episodes. But having the ship's consoles explode on every episode, Voyager getting multiple hull breaches, lost shuttles, reckless use of photon torpedoes, is becoming an annoying cliche. I'm aware later on we'll enter even more absurd territory.

"Basics, Part II"
I liked this more than the first part. Again, killing off Suder was a mistake, they should have just done that to Harry. Seska's death is pathetic. "OH NOEZ, EXPLODING CONSOLES EVERYWHERE!!!" And hey, for a show that ditched its premise about survival, they actually do some survival stuff on the planet, lol.

"Flashback"
Did Brannon Braga actually WATCH The Undiscovered Country? I kept wondering that when I watched this episode. I'm not one for hating a Trek show for pulling off continuity gaffes, but it became too obvious here and it doesn't help that the episode itself other than Sulu getting the spotlight is a total bore. "There were no food replicators in those days", okay I'm aware that he never watched TOS under the advice of Roddenberry himself, but Braga should have had a consultant to get these gaffes right. "Damaged memories" or whatever plot device is just another way of saying "I don't care". Where the writers of DS9 were extremely careful of getting the recreation of TOS just right in "Trials and Tribble-ations", right to the point of every little inch of the set to match it, shows just how much they care not only for the show but also shows respect toward their fans. Voyager's does the opposite. But hey, it was nice to see Sulu in command, I had more fun watching his segments than anything else in Voyager in the long run.
post #32 of 4009
As an aside, I refuse to believe I am the only one that plans to celebrate Easter by watching The Search For Spock. HE IS RISEN!
post #33 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walesczcak View Post
As an aside, I refuse to believe I am the only one that plans to celebrate Easter by watching The Search For Spock. HE IS RISEN!
Dude, I just got done watching that about an hour ago. I'm on Star Trek 4 right now
post #34 of 4009
One terribly massive plot hole aside, I really like GENERATIONS. It's actually my favorite of the TNG movies because it seems like it's really going for broke, whereas the other TNG films genuinely do seem like glorified TV episodes to me. Some random things I enjoyed about GENERATIONS...

- The moody and bold cinematography, my favorite of the series so far.
- The directing, which benefitted from a TV director obviously hungry to finally go big.
- The score, probably my favorite of the Back 5 of the films.
- The economy of the entire Enterprise-B sequence. The instantly re-established chemistry between Kirk, Scotty and Chekov. Kirk desperate to get back into the Captain's Chair. The whole recurring "Tuesday" bit. And I totally buy the quietly horrified look on the face of Sulu's daughter when she realizes there's a hull breach at Kirk's last known position.
- The clever transition from 23rd Century spaceflight to antiquated seafaring "78 years later."
- Picard's subplot, grieving over the tragic deaths of his brother and nephew.
- Data's subplot, and his inability to deal with emotions worked well for both comedy and tension throughout and generated one of the film's biggest laughs: "Oh...shit!"
- Malcolm McDowell chewing the scenery but with a strange kind of discipline. He knows he's making disposable sci-fi adventure but always takes it seriously.
- Stellar Cartography. I wish we had seen more of this cool immersive device in the films or TV series.
- The Enterprise crash sequence. Some really impressive miniature work and the image of the saucer section breaking through the clouds on its way to very nasty landing was a breathtaking image for TREK. The fury of that entire sequence is one of the most powerful moments in all of TREK history, I feel, largely because Enterprise-D is a ship we've come to know over the course of seven seasons of TNG. It's a real character we care about and the sequence means something, unlike the hollow self-destruct sequence set-up for Enterprise-E in the terribly overrated FIRST CONTACT. My only beef with this crash sequence is that close-up shot that holds on the rim of the saucer finally at rest amongst the trees, allowing the scene to breath so that the audience can applaud or catch their breath or whatever. A few seconds would have been understandable. But that shot goes on forever.
- The Nexus. It seems like it's guest-directed by Steven Spielberg, and I love it. And I think it raises an interesting question: What would you do? I have to admit, I could very easily become addicted to my ideal fantasy life, even if it's not real. Would I have the strength to pull out?
- The chemistry between Kirk and Picard, even if they seem slightly like a bickering married couple. It was fun.

What I didn't like?

- That massive plot hole I hinted at earlier and it's been argued about since the film came out: If Picard could leave the Nexus and go to any time and place, he picked a really lousy time to confront Soran. He should have gone right back to Ten Forward when he first met Soran and have him placed in the brig. Problem solved.
- In and of itself, Kirk's death isn't as dumb as it's often made out to be. It's just that he had to die because Picard had a really dumb plan. (See above.)
- The Klingons are kind of silly. And the re-used footage from ST6 of the Bird of Prey blowing up is unfortunate and cheapens what could have been a very satisfying moment.

Otherwise, I don't get the hate for GENERATIONS. But then again, I don't get the love for FIRST CONTACT. I guess people like movies with absolute archetypes. Good guys in white space suits fighting bad guys in black space suits, an image nicely bludgeoned home during the deflector dish showdown in FIRST CONTACT. Even though WRATH OF KHAN is my favorite TREK film, I still long for the epic sense of human adventure that THE MOTION PICTURE was going for, and GENERATIONS tried to bring back. Both of those films might be popularly viewed as failures because they didn't push all (or any) of the thrill buttons that KHAN did so amazingly well. But for me, they're STAR TREK adventures in the truest sense. They're about people struggling to cope with the mysteries of the universe. Most of the rest of the TREK films are desperately pandering to the ALIENS/KHAN/Bad-Ass Sequel crowd. You know...like seemingly every other sci-fi franchise.
post #35 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
You know, there's a germ of a good idea in Final Frontier, the idea that our fears help make us what we are. It's a storyline that could have come straight out of the original series, and there's actually some good bits regarding the bonds between Kirk, Spock and McCoy. But those pieces are lost in a mass of bad effects and bad writing, with even worse attempts to match the comic tone of Voyage Home.
I do like the final shot, even if the matte painting could stand to be more convincing: after a jaunt across the galaxy in search of the almighty, we end up back in Yosemite Valley-- truly God's country.

Reading up, I find that the filmmakers were attempting, with those wide shots, to depict what the valley would look like, geologically, in 300 years. Points for ambition.
post #36 of 4009
I completely agree with everything Litmus just said about Generations. As someone who had more affinity for what I'd seen of TNG than TOS, Generations seemed to be the only film which actually allowed that cast to work properly. Despite not knowing TOS nearly as well the camaraderie in the TOS films is palpable and its something that is utterly lacking from TNG films aside from Generations.
post #37 of 4009
Dammit, you guys are gonna make me re-watch Generations. But first, I have an additional nitpick about the plot: How do we know if any of the second half of the film actually happens? We could just be watching Picard's fantasy of escaping the Nexus and saving the day, and everyone else could still be dead.
post #38 of 4009
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I have an additional nitpick about the plot: How do we know if any of the second half of the film actually happens? We could just be watching Picard's fantasy of escaping the Nexus and saving the day, and everyone else could still be dead.
I always thought that was an interesting theory. But if that were true, Worf wouldn't be in DS9.
post #39 of 4009
I love the way Shatner and Stewart use their horse riding abilities in that scene in the Nexus.
post #40 of 4009
I was satisfied by Fake Guinan's explanation that Picard could leave the Nexus and go anyplace or anytime, since time had no meaning there. That's Real Picard throughout, and that's Real Kirk he encounters thanks to Fake Guinan's advice, and they both really leave the Nexus and appear earlier in Picard's real timeline. That's the easy temporal stuff that Treknobabble can tapdance around without breaking a sweat. The poorly-chosen time and place of Picard and Kirk's re-entry though...not so much.
post #41 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I love the way Shatner and Stewart use their horse riding abilities in that scene in the Nexus.
I love how Shatner literally rides circles around Stewart.
post #42 of 4009
Generally agreed on all that stuff about Generations. Particularly re: the look of the film with its lovely use of light and rich colours, unfortunately not retained with the more tv movie-looking films that followed. Also I don't have a problem with Kirk's death - quite daring in fact to have him die through a simple accident rather than some big signposted 'moment'.

So basically I think they were doing quite well with the first two TNG films. Insurrection I haven't seen in about a decade and I can barely remember a thing about, other than its complete throwaway nature. Nemesis on the other hand actively annoyed me with its failure to give satisfying closure to the remaining character arcs, and Data's demise felt to me like nothing more than a cheap tactic to force some emotion and significance into the thing.
post #43 of 4009
The thing that really bugs me about Nemesis is the unstoppable doomsday weapon that courteously takes about fifteen minutes to unfold and deploy.
post #44 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmus Configuration View Post
- Stellar Cartography. I wish we had seen more of this cool immersive device in the films or TV series.
This was a wasted opportunity in Voyager, amounting to little more than Seven saying "thanks to me pressing buttons indiscriminately and looking bored, I've shaved 5 more years off your journey."

Some excellent points, Litmus. About the Enterprise - D destruction sequence, in particular.
post #45 of 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I love how Shatner literally rides circles around Stewart.
The mere mention of the horse-riding made me laugh. Man, it's making me wanna re-watch it now too.
post #46 of 4009
Watching Generations, I blame you all.
post #47 of 4009
I haven't finished re-watching the film, so this list might change once I do. That said, here's might current preferences:

1. The Wrath of Khan
2. The Undiscovered Country
3. First Contact
4. The Voyage Home
5. The Search For Spock
6. The Motion Picture
7. Generations
8. The Final Frontier
9. Nemesis
10. Insurrection


As for the shows, I've never seen the entire run of any of them, though I plan on Netflixing them soon. As it stands, here's my opinion....

1. The Original Series
2. The Next Generation/Deep Space Nine
3. Voyager

I've never seen any episodes of The Animated Series or Enterprise, but I imagine I'll enjoy both shows more than what I've seen of Voyager.
post #48 of 4009
Plissken, I'd have to agree with your rankings of the films, although when First Contact originally came out, I had it firmly at #2.

Although if we're talking the director's cut of TMP, I'd move that up ahead of Voyage Home. The revisions really make it a story of Spock coming to grips with his human side through the encounter with V'Ger.
post #49 of 4009
I find the Director's Edition of THE MOTION PICTURE to be kind of a mixed bag. Some nice improvements, some mystifying blunders and some just flat out unnecessary tweaking. My favorite improvement is probably the diffusion of the plasma weapon first attacking the Enterprise. Actually seeing how close the energy projectile got to the Enterprise before diffusing was a nice touch and added both tension and relief to the scene. But there are a lot of little edits that bug me, like the removal of Kirk repeating "Viewer off!" during the crew briefing. Kirk having to repeat the line emphasized how dismayed Uhura was at the Epsilon 9 incident. It's an honest human reaction to a show of overwhelming alien force that trumps any supposed Starfleet professionalism the new edit was supposed to accomplish. And even though some of the new visual effects are very nice, like the new Vulcanscapes, there is annoying weirdness here and there too, like the bizarre new placement of the officer's lounge somewhere off to the side of the lower hull coupling (instead of to the immediate lower rear of the bridge, where it was supposed to be). And the odd step-framing employed to generate V'Ger's bridge to the saucer section at the end of the film looks kind of amateurish in the wake of some otherwise well-executed effects.

I find the TMP Director's Edition to be a step forward, a step backward and a step sideways. It didn't affect my ranking of the film (which, on the whole, I like very much) either up or down.

I think FIRST CONTACT is mostly garbage. But I'll save that for a more detailed post at another time.
post #50 of 4009
Not a big Trekkie but here's my listing.....

TNG
TOS
DS9
Voyager
Enterprise

Even though Voyager gets crapped on, there were some interesting episodes in there that rank up there with the TNG and DS9 episodes. Some of the notable ones are the "Year of Hell" parts one and two and the one where they find a planet that's on fast forward and we go from caveman times to the far off future in a matter of days. Pretty interesting stuff.

As for the movies, I like Khan the best while I respect TMS the most. Nemesis is the worst.
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