The Star Trek Thread - Page 3

I forget, did Glenn get to glare disapprovingly at anyone?

GENERATIONS ahead of VOYAGE HOME and UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY? Fuck you, sir. FUCK YOU!

Not really. He looks real young though. Younger than he did in UNDER SIEGE which came out a couple years earlier than GENERATIONS.

Well...double-dumb-ass on you!

How well does Undiscovered Country hold up? If I had made one of these lists a decade ago it would have been 2nd behind Khan, but I haven't seen the flick in 15 years.

It's pretty good, if a little like Holmes In Space. The cold war parallels still work really well, and it's got a good pace, if a little droopy in the Rura Penthe sequences. And a couple of Kirk fistfights. If anything, it's nice to see Sulu actually have something to do.

I've really developed a new-found appreciation for GENERATIONS. It's not the greatest flick by a long way, but the whole Soran plotline speaks to me a lot more, with the time-deal pretty relevant, especially based on personal experiences. Then again, I like NEMESIS a lot, so I'm not sure I'm the most trustworthy person.

I thought UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY was a little rickety even when it first came out. It's basically MURDER, SHE WROTE (senior citizens solving mysteries) meets SCOOBY-DOO (dastardly bad guys in disguise) meets ROCKY IV (If Starfleet can change...and Klingons can change...EVERYBODY CAN CHANGE!!!) in space.

Has a few great moments, like Kirk's ultra-iconic fist-clenched "FIRE!" so I certainly don't hate it. But on the whole, Nicholas Meyer went way too on-the-nose with the Cold War theme. UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY wanted to be a lot smarter than it was, I think.

I remember Christopher Plummer being pretty great. It could be that I hold it in higher regard partially because it was following up V, so who knows. Time for me to finish my set of the "original crew" DVDs.
I really doubt the CGI blood and Iman morphing look all that hot now, but hey, that's early digital effects for ya.

Only on Home Video, though. I'm looking forward to the BD having the theatrical cut, with the original ratio and less the silly slo-mo shots of the conspirators in the Valeris confession scene.

The Theatrical Cut didn't have masked Starfleet assassins go on a shooting spree in the Klingon Cruiser?

Agreed. Especially about the aspect ratio. And I'm also glad we're finally getting the theatrical cut of THE MOTION PICTURE on Blu-Ray. Of course, that just means there will be a double-dip with multiple versions down the road.

Back to UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY, has there ever been another film that ended with the cast autographing the end credits?

Ah, I assumed you meant the bit with Rene Auberjoinois at the end.

Definitely looking forward to TMP's theatrical cut.

Oh, I did. But the whole film has that cheap whodunnit vibe that has virtually nothing to do with the kind of STAR TREK I'm interested in. ATTACK OF THE CLONES pretty much falls into the same category. I guess I'm just not into MATLOCK IN SPACE.

I think I last saw it in the late 90s before I bought a DVD player. Well, it wasn't the theatrical, but the "extended" version. There's a lot of stuff I miss from it, and a lot of stuff I'm not satisfied with in the director's edition. Namely 'Viewer off... VIEWER OFF!'

There's a major issue when it comes to the Director's Cut on Blu-ray -- all of the remastered visual FX were rendered in 480p. So Paramount would either have to upconvert the shots with new FX (a la Firefly) or completely recomposit everything.

Interestingly, I need to catch up with Star Trek. I've seen all of the Next Generation movies but only The Voyage Home and The Undiscovered Country from the original crew. So I'd rate as thus:

The Undiscovered Country
The Voyage Home
Generations
First Contact
Nemesis
Insurrection

Wow, you really need to see II-IV in a row sometime. You're in for a treat.

Yes, but they released a letterboxed VHS (and Laserdisc) of the theatrical in 1991. Up to that point, the 'Special Longer Version' was the only cut available.

ETA: Regarding Undiscovered Country. I think it holds up pretty well. Not that it's perfect, but I think after V most of us were willing to settle for anything resembling quality. I like the idea of Kirk & co finally getting called up on some of their transgressions, although the Judgement at Nuremburg reference is heavy-handed. The whodunnit plotline never worked for me ("If shoe fits... wear it!" Ugh) and it seems like everybody's carrying around a copy of Bartlett's Familiar Quotations. But the cast shines, especially Kelley, who looked really frail in Final Frontier. He gets the film's best moment: "What is it with you?"

I love Hiro Narita's cinematography, and think it looks terrific in 2:1 besides. The assassination sequence is still impressive.

I'm baffled by the love for Generations here. I've only seen it twice, last time was when it first hit video but I remember it being a horrendous film, badly directed and poorly shot, despite having Alonzo as D.O.P. I thought it looked like a two part episode of the show. For awhile it was one of my "Worse Films Ever", not just worse Trek films.
Have to grab it again in the next few days I guess.

Whoopi Goldberg-"The nexus was like being inside Joy." Fuck that movie now and forever.
1.II
2.III
3.IV
4.I
5.VI
6.V
7. and the rest

Pretty well. I seem to re-watch it quite a lot and it remains enjoyable. Coincidentally after yesterday's tangent, Generations ended up being on Sky. I caught the last 40 minutes or so. It was enough.

I wish Valeris in Undiscovered Country had been Saavik as originally intended.

And I think it's kind of funny that the Enterprise crew has to pull out huge dusty books to translate Klingon.

I love II, IV and VI almost unreservedly, and the reason is Nicholas Meyer. The man was better for Star Trek than almost any other single person in its history, for the very simple reason that he did not care. He didn't care about the history, the legacy, the continuity, the fanbase...none of it. He was just out to make individual stories as good as he could make them. And if that meant that we were going to see torpedo tubes being loaded, or a scene in a kitchen, then goddammit, that's what we were getting.

Star Trek has desperately needed more of that attitude. The original series, as we've seen in Devin's writeups, wasn't particularly tight on continuity. The obsessive need to make everything "fit", even if it negatively impacts the story at hand, is responsible for a lot of what's gone wrong since.

Following the career paths of trek alumni on imdb can be a depressing experience. All these promising careers which suddenly hit a Star Trek shaped brick wall and never recover. Meaney's done a great job of maintaining a career as one of those ever present "hey it's *that* guy" character actors - I guess it helps that O'Brian was always an everyman figure. The guy who played Bashir also surprisingly seemed to break out as one of hollywood's go to guys for suave muslim characters a while back.

Doesn't he also get down on one knee for some reason? That's definitely the best part of the movie.

Glad to see my sentiments being echoed a lot with regards to The Undiscovered Country and The Motion Picture.

I want to say a little something else about Generations...

I still don't like it that much. But I have to admit that they got one thing right in fixing the ending. Yes, Kirk dies stupidly anyway. But at least Soran gets a better comeuppance that doesn't just make Picard look like a vindictive douchebag.

You can check it out on YouTube. But, originally, while Picard is tending to the dying Kirk, Soran used to come upon them ranting and raving (but unarmed), and Picard just raised his phaser and shot Soran in the chest. Soran then tumbled down the small hill and landed with his eyes open.

Now it's more satisfying, at least. And the look on Malcolm McDowell's face before the control panel thing (or whatever the fuck it is) blows up is priceless.

But I still don't think that good visuals are enough to excuse how they dropped the ball with the team up aspect of the storyline. And the fact they just killed Kirk for no good reason.

I don't agree with that. Mortality is one of the main themes of the film, and the whole point of Kirk's story was to show that he'd rather die making a positive impact than to live forever in easy contentment. A flaw of the film is that they don't do much to convey what would have been lost had the villain succeeded, but still.

Kirk deserved to die commanding the Enterprise in a final battle against a worthy enemy.

Wrath of Khan as the best in the lot is beyond debate. But Trek VI is a worthy second place contender. It really holds up and is a nice sendoff.

I like III, but, well...

EXACTLY.

Good GOD, I forgot about that outfit that Chekov has to wear. I wonder if his contract negotiation for STIV included a rider to make his costume 'more manly'.

Yeah, the costumes in Star Trek III are horrendous.

I still like VI quite a bit but it does get really slow at times in the second act. I've never seen the theatrical cut though, I saw it first on video with Col. West scenes and all.

I'm also beginning to question if I've seen the theatrical cut of Khan. The site I'm looking at says that in the theatrical cut it's never explicitly stated that Preston is Scotty's nephew and that whole exchange on the way to the bridge where Kirk says "That young man is my son" and Spock registers a bit of surprise isn't in there. I know I saw that on VHS though and wasn't the extended cut only just released on DVD?

The extended cut for ST2 played on regular TV as well. I seem to remember that cable (HBO, etc) only showed the theatrical cut, but I could be mistaken on that.

Yeah, the number of GENERATIONS apologists in this thread simply boggles my mind.

GENERATIONS, o' Pantheon of Mediocrity, how do I despise thee? Let me count the ways...

It's only "moody and bold" if you compare it to the flat, dull, and overlit photography from the TV show. John Alonzo did what any decent DP should: he darkened the bridge, used slightly wider angle lenses for the locations. Par for the course when you switch from a TV format (4:3) to a widescreen one (1.85:1).

To paraphrase Chris Rock's "I Takes Car of My Kids" rant, "Ya supposed to use wide angle lenses and better lighting when you's changin' formats, you dumb, cracker-ass cinematographer!"

Practical? Yes. Bold? No. Especially when compared to the camera work and lighting of ST II and VI. I'm not saying you gotta be Michael Bay, but the camera in GENERATIONS rarely moves. And when it does it's in a fairly pedestrian way. Just like...television.

Care to elaborate on this? Yes, Dave Carson's directed some decent TNG episodes ("Yesterday's Enterprise") and the DS9 pilot. But he's part of the problem as to why GENERATIONS feels/looks like TV to me. His background is in British Television, and boy does it show.

When I think of someone "hungry to go big", I think of TNG directors like Rob Bowman and Johnathan Frakes. If you watch the TNG episodes they helmed you'll notice they're more interesting visually than most TNG episodes. The few visually creative shots I saw were the Nexus ones on location. But I credit that more to John Alonzo (who also is from TV) than Carson (see below).

Aarrghh! To paraphrase our local mattress salesman, "You're killing me, Litmus!"

IMO, Dennis McCarthy's the blandest of all the ST film and TV composers. He does okay on emotional/quiet moments ("Coming to Rest") but he can't write action cues to save his life. The irony is that even though he was given a larger orchestra than he got on TV, the score still lacked any real scope. It also lacks thematic flow and cohesion. Which isn't surprising given that it was written by someone whose background is mired in writing functional, unobtrusive music to get you to that next commercial break. Engaging the viewer for 90 plus minutes is a whole new ballgame.

There was an article in Cinefantastique in the early 90's about TNG music and how bland it was. They refererred to Dennis McCarthy's TNG scores as "droning". Unfortunately, I feel the same way about his GENERATIONS score. I blame some of it on Rick Berman.

Television music doesn't have to be bland. Listen to Johnathan Debney's SeaQuest score. Crummy show, great score. Or better yet, TNG composer Ron Jones score for the Borg cliffhanger "The Best of Both Worlds".

As for GENERATIONS being a better written, orchestrated score than Goldsmith's FIRST CONTACT or even NEMESIS, we'll just agree to disagree.

Also, don't you find it strange that after tackling the big screen Dave Carson and Dennis McCarthy are still doing TV, while other TV directors/composers who've made theatrical debuts have gone on to do more movies? The only other thing Carson's done outside of TV was a lame DTV film called LETTERS TO A KILLER, which was scored by (wait for it)...Dennis McCarthy! I think the above fact speaks volumes.

Ugh. Economy's definitely the right word for it. They didn't even try to make the B bridge look that different from the A. Compare that to the Reliant/Enterprise bridges in STAR TREK II, the way the Grissom/Enterprise bridges looked in III, and the Enterprise A/Excelsior bridges looked in VI. Same set but camera angles, lighting, set dressing made them seem like they were on totally different vessels. Not so with the bridge of the Enterprise B. It looks like they just hauled the set out of storage and indiscrimanately lit it. Who do I blame for this? "Hungry" director Dave Carson.

Instant re-established chemistry? Even as a fan of TOS and films, their appearances felt forced. As did the whole Sulu's daughter thing. Which was actually written as Chekov's daughter. But Koenig refused to do the cameo if they made it his kid because he knew it didn't make any sense. So they switched it to Sulu's (which Koenig still hated and doesn't make any more sense).

You do realize that it was originally supposed to be Kirk, Spock, and McCoy, don't you? When Kelly and Nimoy turned them down (with good reason), they wrote in Chekov and Scotty. Again, since this is a historic re-launch of the most famous starship in the galaxy, does it make sense that Spock and McCoy wouldn't be there? It doesn't. The fact that you and others see no problem with this kinda confirms that you're more into TNG than TOS or their films. There's nothing wrong with that. But I expect better from the filmmakers. If you're going to make a big deal about passing the torch, either respect canon or don't pass it at all.

This was another big problem I had. If you hadn't seen the TNG episode "Homecoming", you'd be totally lost. Yes, Stewart gave a fine crying performance but where was the subplot? He gets a message, cries, and...? Where's the resolution? There's no character growth or scenes of Picard coming to grips with his tragedy. Yeah, he jumps out of the Nexus, but it's never clear why (other than showing a glowing Xmas ornament). He just does it.

Compare that to ST VI where Kirk and Spock learn that their personal prejudices may cost the galaxy billions of lives. Or III, IV, and VI where you see Kirk work through the grief of his son's death. Or even FIRST CONTACT where as clumsily as it was displayed, Picard learns that his obessession with revenge is causing many of his crew to die. That's subplot. With GENERATIONS, it's like the writers had a decent theme but forgot to follow up on it.

The "Oh shit" seemed to be merely for shock value (Look, kids, Data said a bad word!) But I loved the scene in Stellar Cartography between Data and Picard. Very intense, great character stuff that stomps all over the Worf/Picard conflict in the next film. One of the best moments in all the films.

Yes and Yes. There was a Stellar Cartography room in Voyager that wasn't quite as elaborate but pretty damn cool nonetheless.

For me, it was an interesting FX sequence that rang hollow and false because of the way it was executed. And, I'm sorry, Litmus, but the destruction of the D, on several levels, wasn't nearly as impactful as when the A bought it.

The D gets hit by a photon torpedo, people scream, it crashes its saucer, and ....that's pretty much it. What character moments do we get? NONE. This ship was their home for 7 frickin' years! But you'd never know it by watching this movie. Hell, Picard gets more upset about the possibility of losing the E in FIRST CONTACT than he does here. If you consider the D as much as a character as you claim, Litmus, then you should be a lot more pissed about it. It's the equivalent of Worf or Crusher getting killed and none of the characters reacting to it. Again, I blame the writers (and Rick Berman).

Compare that with ST III. Not only is the scene filmed/shot/better, but it actually has an impact on the characters. Harve Bennett did a supreme job balancing humor, tension, and shock:

KRUGE: "Speaking? Let me hear it."

ENTERPRISE Computer (over intercom): "Ten...nine...eight..seven..."

KRUGE: "Get out! Get out of there!"

Then there's that beautiful shot of the crew standing on the ridge watching their ship sail through the atmosphere like a falling star. I'm not gonna bother quoting the lines from Kirk and McCoy, but you know where I'm going. I saw that movie with several people who weren't even into ST and they were choked up by it. I saw GENERATIONS with a bunch of TNG fans and they felt the same way I did: meh. To me the lack of character reaction to the D crash summed up how the writers felt about the ship: apathetic.

-CONT-

-CONT-

This was another gripe. Moore and Braga had carte' blanche from the studio to do anything they wanted with two iconic characters, and what do they come up with?

"Cooking with the Captains"

Seriously, this is what I'd been waiting 7 years to see? I'm sorry but I've read TREK fan fiction that's better than this. "The fate of the galaxy lies in the hands of two famous captains...who ride horses!" Gimme a break.

Here’s another gripe: just who the f_ck is "Antonia"? Nobody. James T. Kirk had 3 true loves in his life: Carol Marcus, Edith Keeler, and the Enterprise. Both actresses were still alive then. Would it have been that difficult to have one to do a cameo? Or at least have Kirk mention her by name? Again, sloppy/lazy writing. If you're going to deal with an iconic character, please respect their history. Meyer and Bennett did. It ain't rocket science.

This leads to my biggest, angriest gripe about the film: Kirk's Nexus dream. WTF? Like I stated above, this should've been a no-brainer. But the writers were lazy. James Tiberius Kirk's main desire in life was to be a starship captain. Period. That took precedence over everything else. It's the reason why his son hated him. The only friends he had were his shipmates. So what do we see that his fantasy is? Chopping wood and riding horses! That's a Shatner desire, not a Kirk one.

If anything, they blew the perfect opportunity to squeeze in cameos of TOS crew. How cool would it have been if Picard steps into the Nexus…and emerges on the bridge of the Enterprise A? There's Kirk in the command chair surrounded by TOS regulars. Picard shows up, tries to jolt him out of that fantasy, and Kirk calls security. Picard snaps him out of it by mentioning Carol Marcus or his dead son. That's a hell of a lot more dramatic than jumping ravines/cooking eggs.

No offense intended, Litmus, but your GENERATIONS post reads like a diehard TNG fan who was so excited just to see their favorite characters onscreen that he let the other faults fall by the wayside. There’s nothing wrong with that; you like what you like. But if you are a TNG fan, you can’t deny that out of all the ST films, GENERATIONS is one of missed opportunities. Especially when you consider that, unlike Bennett and Meyer, this film was made by the same folks who did the TV show.

I think Marina Sirtis put it best during a pre release GENERATIONS interview in CINEFANTASTIQUE. When asked what she thought of the film, “Well, we’ve done a lot of episodes that are better than this film, but not too many that are worse.”

Lastly, there's a quote from Devin regarding films and mediocrity that someone has in their sig. I forget the exact words but something about filmgoers being so lazy that they'll basically forgive mediocrity when it comes to killing two hours. I feel that sentiment especially applies to nearly all the ST films after ST VI, but especially GENERATIONS.

The whole thing felt more like Shatner's fantasy.
OOOOOHHHH MY EGGS!
Could you pass me the dill??

By the time Generations came out, they were more interested in making Trek conform to their vision than in making their vision conform to Trek.

Nice to see some Search for Spock love in here.

Some very good notes, Kreeper. I shudder to think how many times you've subjected yourself to Generations. One thing, though:

Actually, the film is anamorphic scope (2.35:1), an interesting choice considering that Undiscovered Country had been shot in Super 35. Part of the impulse to 'go big', no doubt, but perhaps also responsible for the 'dark' look since anamorphic lenses are slower.

Impassioned.

That would've honestly been one of the coolest scenes in Trek history.

Kirk had been in the Nexus for nearly 8 decades in real time by the time Picard came barging in. Given the non-linear, non-continuous perception of time within the Nexus, I think it's fair to say that Kirk could have lived any number of fantasy lives involving being the Captain of the Enterprise. But when all you're eating is dessert day in and day out, even the most delicious chocolate cake in the world would grow tiresome. Maybe Kirk truly found peace in the simple pleasures of life. An inviting cabin. The peace and quiet of the wilderness. A woman he truly loves.

The only thing that bothers me about that scenario is that Kirk still fell prey to the illusion of the Nexus while Picard did not. Picard had an obvious clue with the otherworldly Christmas ornament. Kirk didn't get his clue until he fearlessly jumped his horse across the chasm...solely as a result of Picard's interference in Kirk's fantasy. Kirk, being Kirk, should have figured it out on his own as quickly as Picard did. If not faster.

I agree was well, if Kirks big fantasy was chopping wood, why even go into Star Fleet? raise some horses and live in Montana.

That would have been a kick ass scene, and hell..it would have been fun to see.

I haven't rewatched it in years, and I won't be anytime soon, but wasn't there a line by Shatner indicating Kirk hadn't really been there that long, at least in terms of his
own perception? If not, languishing for almost a century, only to be snapped out of it by a Picard pep talk, makes it even worse.

From what I understand, Picard went into the Nexus knowing full well what it was, while Kirk was just thrown into it, and probably had no clue what the hell was going on.

Yeah, Guinan does say, "And from his point of view, he just got here too," or something. You're right. This movie sucks Borgnine balls.

EDIT: Also, the whole notion of having to destroy star systems to affect the course of the Nexus ribbon is pretty dumb considering that both Soran and Kirk had successfully been picked up by the Nexus from their respective starships. Man, fuck GENERATIONS!

Thank you Kreeper. Your feelings on the film are eerily similar to mine in every way. I particularly fail to understand any kind of love for the score. TNG had the most mindless, irritating droning of a music score I've ever heard, and hiring one of its architects to score their first theatrical feature was a boner of epic proportions. Just awful.

I will admit to really liking the saucer crash for the sheer visceral impact of it. In a big movie theater, it was quite an experience. Sadly, as you say, it's all undone by everyone's insistence on refusing to have any kind of real reaction to it.

Litmus, I generally really respect your opinion, but I think there's more than a little rose-colored-glasses attitude going on here.

The 2 hour series finale for TNG was infinitely superior to 'Generations'.

I remember feeling cheated when they re-used the ST6 Bird of Prey explosion for this film; the entire movie theater let out a collective groan of disapproval upon seeing that.

As did I when I rewatched it last night. I wasn't even 100% sure which movie it was from, but I knew it wasn't from that one.