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The Star Trek Thread - Page 44

post #2151 of 3417
9/14/10 at 6:07pm
Actually that reminds me, what the hell was Checkov's job in Star Trek 6? He was Science officer in Khan but when he transferred back what was his role. I have heard some people say exec and other say security chief. I doubt the latter because he didn't know firing a phaser would set off the alarm, but he might just be dumb.
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post #2152 of 3417
9/14/10 at 6:32pm
And speaking of STVI, if Valeris fired that Phaser at another crew member, would it just disintegrate their clothes?
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post #2153 of 3417
9/14/10 at 6:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Savage View Post
Actually that reminds me, what the hell was Checkov's job in Star Trek 6? He was Science officer in Khan but when he transferred back what was his role. I have heard some people say exec and other say security chief. I doubt the latter because he didn't know firing a phaser would set off the alarm, but he might just be dumb.
I believe he was...

Tactical Officer in TMP.

Exec Officer on the Reliant/Tactical on the Enterprise in Trek 2.

Science Officer in Trek 3.

And Navigator in Treks 4, 5 and 6.
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post #2154 of 3417
9/14/10 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 
He was the security/tactical officer in TMP, when he joined as a guest in TWOK and TSFS (doubling as science officer here) he took over that post again. On the Klingon ship he was a navigator again, and then on the Enterprise-A he got his old navigator post back. Him going from first officer to the navigator really doesn't make sense. At least the other characters make sense.

By the time of TREK VI I can understand Spock wanting to stay as Kirk's right hand. Kirk is not the kind of guy who sits behind a desk obviously. Bones is a simple country doctor so he couldn't care less about opportunities in Starfleet Medical. Scotty is the frakkin' Captain of Engineering so he can do what the hell he wants. Uhura was merely joining for that one mission away from teaching at the Academy. Sulu has his own ship. Rand became an officer and serves with Sulu. Chapel is in Starfleet Command. Then there's Chekov, I never got what drove him.

But that is now here near as ridiculous as the entire TNG crew staying in the same posts since the beginning of TNG all the way to Nemesis. Riker really should have gotten his own command before the TV show ended. Data held the same lieutenant commander rank and Ops post since season 1! Worf? He moved on with DS9 and became an ambassador after that but the writers of Nemesis decided to ignore that. Geordi should have easily gotten his own ship by then, if showing him professionally command a starship as a junior officer under heavy stress in "Arsenal of Freedom" says anything. Counselor Troi? I dunno what's her deal. Dr. Crusher? She left her position as head of Starfleet Medical to be the CMO again on the Enterprise, only to go back to Medical again. Tasha Yar would have gotten her command or taken position at Starfleet Security, if she didn't do something stupid like getting killed from a blanket doused in tar.

Then there's Picard, but it makes sense for him to still be the captain because not only is he truly an explorer by heart, but when James T. Kirk tells you to not accept promotion or get transferred then goddammit you listen to him.
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post #2155 of 3417
9/14/10 at 7:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul755 View Post
I love that Takei thinks a Captain Sulu TV series would actually work.
I'm not so sure he was wrong. The franchise could have used a dose of the old-school Trek at that point. An original cast member backed by a different creative team would have been a nice boost, and brought some of the original fans back. Instead, we got more of the same old shit because the powers that be decided that their audience was too stupid to understand the timeline.
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post #2156 of 3417
9/14/10 at 7:03pm
Good call on the Next Gen crew, Stockslivevan. It really doesn't make much sense for them to have not moved on for so long, especially given all the future versions of them we saw on the series.
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post #2157 of 3417
9/14/10 at 7:30pm
Riker wanted to captain the Enterprise, but I guess we saw how that turned out.

He did get offered his own command during the series though I believe. But, it basically got left to the books in any case.

Edit: Battle of Both Worlds really should have ended differently and Riker should have stayed in command of the Enterprise. But, I guess we'd lose Picard unless they kept the Borg thread ongoing, or promote him or make him so tramautized by the experience that he can no longer be captain.
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post #2158 of 3417
9/14/10 at 7:42pm
The same could easily be said for DS9 and carachters like Dax and Bashier.

Riker is the most glaring though in any of the series. Leaving after TBOBW would have made all the sense in the world and it's not like he couldn't guest star from time to time. Then again, if he didn't have the ego to want to command a starship maybe it was for the best. And what puzzles me even more...I didn't think you could turn down a promotion in the military. I thought it was basically "we are promoting you to Captain, giving you command of the USS Exaclibur, congrats."

I could see Starfleet not giving Data a command because of concerns over having an Android Captain. But he should have been Picards XO before they killed him. And Geordi did get promoted to Chief Engineer after season 1 and made Lt. Cmdr by the start of season 3. So he was at least advancing somewhat.
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post #2159 of 3417
9/14/10 at 7:49pm
Thread Starter 
Yeah. In the first season episode "Arsenal of Freedom" he explains that he turned down the offer to command the USS Drake. Then in season two's "The Icarus Factor" he turns down the opportunity to command USS Aries. Then the third time in "The Best of Both Worlds" he turns down the USS Melbourne. It wouldn't seem so ridiculous if the writers managed to elaborate on why he's was so damned determined to stay on board the Enterprise beyond the excuse "but she's not the Enterprise". Like really, why does he only want the Enterprise? He's never really shown to be that fond of the ship like Kirk was for his. At the end of Generations he seems to be taking its destruction pretty easy, with an attitude that's best described as "ah well". He's shown more fond of his dumb trombone than the Enterprise.
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post #2160 of 3417
9/14/10 at 8:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul755 View Post
The same could easily be said for DS9 and carachters like Dax and Bashier.
Maybe just Bashir since Dax is dead. But I somewhat agree with Bashir's case, I'm not sure why he would stay at DS9 (besides fucking Ezri), however that's a span of seven years and he was promoted from junior officer to full Lieutenant midway so I give it some leeway. I can't really recall any goal he wanted besides getting his dream career of "frontier medicine."

Quote:
I could see Starfleet not giving Data a command because of concerns over having an Android Captain. But he should have been Picards XO before they killed him.
You see I thought of that too, yet Starfleet seemed to value him a lot anyway with all those medals he got and him making it all the way to Lt. Commander at a good pace. And after the episode where he gets his first command assignment and prevents the Romulans from further helping the Duras with the Klingon Civil War, at this point Starfleet should be sure that he's more than capable of commanding a starship.

Quote:
And Geordi did get promoted to Chief Engineer after season 1 and made Lt. Cmdr by the start of season 3. So he was at least advancing somewhat.
Still I think after the Enterprise-D crashes he should have moved on with a promotion.

But really in the end Berman just wanted to play it the easy way and have everyone in the same posts as the TV show and not try anything interesting or new with them besides letting Burton wear contacts after bitching about the visor for seven years.
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post #2161 of 3417
9/14/10 at 8:33pm
Wait, Riker had already been offered a ship in the first season? So he was spinning his wheels for more than seven years for Picard to croak or get promoted to admiral?

Jeez.
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post #2162 of 3417
9/14/10 at 9:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
I'm not so sure he was wrong. The franchise could have used a dose of the old-school Trek at that point. An original cast member backed by a different creative team would have been a nice boost, and brought some of the original fans back. Instead, we got more of the same old shit because the powers that be decided that their audience was too stupid to understand the timeline.
Also, it was reportedly a case of Berman scotching a Sulu/Excelsior-series in part because Sulu, Rand, et al were characters created by Roddenberry, not him and Piller/Braga/whomever, which would've meant far fewer financial royalties on his side at the end of the day than something like DS9/VOY/ENT brought him.
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post #2163 of 3417
9/14/10 at 9:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Now that I think of it, who exactly was next in line for command below Spock, ignoring Kirk for the moment?
In the series, it seemed to go Kirk -> Spock -> Scotty -> Sulu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Wait, Riker had already been offered a ship in the first season? So he was spinning his wheels for more than seven years for Picard to croak or get promoted to admiral?

Jeez.
It almost seemed like they kept Riker around to take over the show in case Patrick Stewart decided he'd had enough.
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post #2164 of 3417
9/14/10 at 11:34pm
Don't forget Riker then finally accepts a promotion to leave at the start of Nemisis. It only took 20 years as Picards exec...I would have though after all that time the "Riker brand" would have been long forgotten by Starfleet HR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post
You see I thought of that too, yet Starfleet seemed to value him a lot anyway with all those medals he got and him making it all the way to Lt. Commander at a good pace. And after the episode where he gets his first command assignment and prevents the Romulans from further helping the Duras with the Klingon Civil War, at this point Starfleet should be sure that he's more than capable of commanding a starship.
True, but then they might have been scared off when Lore basically took control of him with the Rogue Borg and his emotions chip. Sure Lore was deactivated but they may still see him as a potential security risk.

Quote:
Still I think after the Enterprise-D crashes he should have moved on with a promotion.

But really in the end Berman just wanted to play it the easy way and have everyone in the same posts as the TV show and not try anything interesting or new with them besides letting Burton wear contacts after bitching about the visor for seven years.
But Geordi never really had command aspirations did he. Maybe he was like Scotty and just loved being an Engineer.

It did seem off (realistically) that Picard was able to retain his entire Senior Staff (minus Worf) from one Enterprise to another. Would have though more than the one would have been poached.
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post #2165 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
In the series, it seemed to go Kirk -> Spock -> Scotty -> Sulu.
Didn't "Enterprise Incident" have McCoy in command for a hot minute?
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post #2166 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:16am
Maybe? I always seem to remember that if both Kirk and Spock were away, Scotty was in the chair.
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post #2167 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:25am
Scotty was third in command, but as a Lieutenant Commander, McCoy would outrank Sulu. But I was misremembering - it was a scene from "The Menagerie":

SPOCK: This is the First Officer speaking. Security, send an armed team to the Bridge. Transporter Room, stand by to beam Captain Kirk aboard. Effective until then, Lieutenant Hansen is in operational command.
HANSEN: Sir?
SPOCK: First Officer out. Doctor, as senior officer present, I present myself to you for arrest.
MCCOY: You what?
SPOCK: The charge is mutiny, Doctor. I never received orders to take command.
SECURITY: Security reporting, Mister Spock.
SPOCK: Doctor.
MCCOY: Mister Spock is, er, under arrest. Is confinement to quarters enough?
SPOCK: Adequate, Doctor. I'll make no trouble.
MCCOY: Well, confine him.
SECURITY: Yes, sir.
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post #2168 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by neoolong View Post
Wait, Riker had already been offered a ship in the first season? So he was spinning his wheels for more than seven years for Picard to croak or get promoted to admiral?

Jeez.
Maybe being the first officer on the Federations flagship means more then being a caption on some lonely forgotten star ship.
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post #2169 of 3417
9/15/10 at 11:43am
I guess he wouldn't have the opportunity to bed as many alien women if he was his own captain. It wasn't the time of Kirk anymore.
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post #2170 of 3417
9/15/10 at 11:45am
Maybe he's sticking around because of Troi.
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post #2171 of 3417
9/15/10 at 12:51pm
Hang on...

Hasn't the Star Trek universe done away with money? In which case, why would anyone ever want promotion?

"Congratulations, you're promoted to captain."
"Thanks, do I get any extra pay?"
"Pay? er... no. But there's shit-loads of more responsibility and paperwork. And a badge."

I work as a freelancer so this may have something to do with my outlook.
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post #2172 of 3417
9/15/10 at 1:23pm
Not in Kirk's time I believe. They didn't turn commie until Picard.

As for Troi, it took Riker long enough to tap that again. I guess he wanted to play the field a bit more. I think the original idea was for the Troi/Riker (imzadi) thing to have much more of a presence in the show, but it really didn't.
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post #2173 of 3417
9/15/10 at 1:44pm
Star Trek IV, the pizzeria scene:

"Don't tell me they don't have money in the 23rd Century?"

"...Well, they don't!"

Of course, McCoy still needed some when haggling with that one alien pilot-guy in the bar in Star Trek III -- evidently the Federation still keeps some around for dealing with non-member species, or something.
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post #2174 of 3417
9/15/10 at 2:23pm
Well, in that TNG episode where the humans from the 20th century are unfrozen, picard basically tells the old greedy dude that its the want of knowledge that now motivates man to go and explore the stars.

Of course, there's probably many more people who do nothing and sit around coping with holodeck addiction.
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post #2175 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leto II View Post
Star Trek IV, the pizzeria scene:

"Don't tell me they don't have money in the 23rd Century?"

"...Well, they don't!"

Of course, McCoy still needed some when haggling with that one alien pilot-guy in the bar in Star Trek III -- evidently the Federation still keeps some around for dealing with non-member species, or something.
Good catch. And of course the barter system persists well into the 24th century, especially on DS9.
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post #2176 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:06pm
You would think the development of replicators would pretty much eliminate the need for commerce. Anything you need is just a verbal command to the computer away.
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post #2177 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:13pm
Wasn't that part of the appeal of latinum-- that it didn't teleport or synthesize well? Or am I just making stuff up?
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post #2178 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:20pm
Scotty bought a boat. It was referred to in ST 6, I think.
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post #2179 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
You would think the development of replicators would pretty much eliminate the need for commerce. Anything you need is just a verbal command to the computer away.
Can't make everything, needs energy, and still needs raw material to transform into what you ordered.
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post #2180 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:30pm
That only covers retail. I think some of the books mentioned how expensive it was for civilians to travel by transporter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
You would think the development of replicators would pretty much eliminate the need for commerce. Anything you need is just a verbal command to the computer away.
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post #2181 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:32pm
Thread Starter 
The whole system on how the Federation works is one of the poorest developed ideas in Star Trek, it's surprising how over 40 years later the whole thing is still vague. Federation doesn't need money but officers will still need some kind of money for non-Federation sectors like McCoy dealing with that alien in III and of course officers visiting Quark's on DS9 (which is part of Bajoran space too).
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post #2182 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:39pm
Doesn't McCoy make a crack about "I'd pay real money for him to shut up" in VI? I love cranky McCoy.
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post #2183 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post
The whole system on how the Federation works is one of the poorest developed ideas in Star Trek, it's surprising how over 40 years later the whole thing is still vague. Federation doesn't need money but officers will still need some kind of money for non-Federation sectors like McCoy dealing with that alien in III and of course officers visiting Quark's on DS9 (which is part of Bajoran space too).
They're dirty commie hippies. And, black market currency. There, it's explained.
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post #2184 of 3417
9/15/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
Doesn't McCoy make a crack about "I'd pay real money for him to shut up" in VI? I love cranky McCoy.
Slightly unrelated, but that line's always bugged me. I'm pretty sure he says "if SHE'D just shut up," which suggests that he's talking about the ship's computer counting down the time they have left. In context, though, it's played as if he's reacting to Chang's endless Shakespeare quotes.

But yes, yet another reference to money.
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post #2185 of 3417
9/15/10 at 5:04pm
Maybe it's a distinction between hard currency and virtual accounts? I mean, I have a debit card, but that's not the same as having cash on me. Maybe the idea is that they have credit chits or something so there's no need for them to carry actual cash with them.

But it's likely more of Roddenberry's misguided utopian thinking. "In the future everything will be so perfect we won't need to pay for anything!" Well, we've had money of some kind for a few thousand years, I don't think it's going away in the next thousand.
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post #2186 of 3417
9/15/10 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
I love this intro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf_CSjeA2RM
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post #2187 of 3417
9/15/10 at 5:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
Slightly unrelated, but that line's always bugged me. I'm pretty sure he says "if SHE'D just shut up,"
Denture slippage.
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post #2188 of 3417
9/15/10 at 5:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Maybe it's a distinction between hard currency and virtual accounts? I mean, I have a debit card, but that's not the same as having cash on me. Maybe the idea is that they have credit chits or something so there's no need for them to carry actual cash with them.
Talk of 'credits' comes up more than once in Trek, but those TNG clips about "We don't desire material things except little GOLD models of starships" are pretty damning.
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post #2189 of 3417
9/15/10 at 5:39pm
I dont like the future. What the fuck is there to aspire to?
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post #2190 of 3417
9/15/10 at 6:10pm
Thread Starter 
I've brought it up before but couldn't find the clip to it but now here it is: Jake wants to borrow Nog's money.

Little moments DS9 poking fun of the utopia concept is what sets it apart from the rest of Berman era Trek. The writers were willing to acknowledge the absurdity of Gene's vision, especially his updated version that started with TNG.
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post #2191 of 3417
9/15/10 at 9:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
But it's likely more of Roddenberry's misguided utopian thinking. "In the future everything will be so perfect we won't need to pay for anything!" Well, we've had money of some kind for a few thousand years, I don't think it's going away in the next thousand.
Why is the idea of a 'Utopia' on Earth in Star Trek so "misguided"? I've never thought of it more than just backdrop material that the writers would move around in.
Sure, as an audience, because of the world we live in at the moment it is much more instinctively easy to relate to an 'imperfect' society. But is it really impossible for people to relate to a world were money and religion don't exist? Do people really feel that is a childish concept?

I should find a hippie emoticon.
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post #2192 of 3417
9/15/10 at 9:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Misfit View Post
Doesn't McCoy make a crack about "I'd pay real money for him to shut up" in VI? I love cranky McCoy.
I love this line. It's a cool little carachter moment.
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post #2193 of 3417
9/15/10 at 9:48pm
It was "misguided" in the sense that he was so stubborn about it, it got in the way of the storytelling.
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post #2194 of 3417
9/15/10 at 9:56pm
When? Going by the instances cited, seems like they've been ignoring it at will for 40+ years.
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post #2195 of 3417
9/15/10 at 9:58pm
The whole "there's no conflict within the crew" thing with TNG for example.
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post #2196 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:03pm
I thought you meant the currency thing. I remember the TNG crew being semi-bitchy with each other, but yeah.
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post #2197 of 3417
9/15/10 at 10:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
It was "misguided" in the sense that he was so stubborn about it, it got in the way of the storytelling.
I've posted on this before, but I feel it really was the writers' problem to solve, and nobody's licked it yet. Conventional TV characterization is all about conflict and competition-- to portray a culture where people serve according to their ability and live according to their needs requires a completely different set of narrative muscles. The result is that Picard & co come across as really goddamn uptight about living in a free, communal society.
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post #2198 of 3417
9/16/10 at 1:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kurtmandersen View Post
Why is the idea of a 'Utopia' on Earth in Star Trek so "misguided"? I've never thought of it more than just backdrop material that the writers would move around in.
Sure, as an audience, because of the world we live in at the moment it is much more instinctively easy to relate to an 'imperfect' society. But is it really impossible for people to relate to a world were money and religion don't exist? Do people really feel that is a childish concept?

I should find a hippie emoticon.
The problem isn't that we don't like the idea, it's that the writers freely bend or ignore that principle half the time. Since nobody could ever satisfactorily explain how the society operated without money, nobody ever bothered to expound on it, or even take it into account. Lines like "Scotty, you've earned your pay for the week" are peppered throughout the original series, and still popped up even after TNG firmly established a world without commerce. It was just too hard to write around that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post
I've posted on this before, but I feel it really was the writers' problem to solve, and nobody's licked it yet. Conventional TV characterization is all about conflict and competition-- to portray a culture where people serve according to their ability and live according to their needs requires a completely different set of narrative muscles. The result is that Picard & co come across as really goddamn uptight about living in a free, communal society.
The problem isn't with the narrative tools or conventional characterization, it's that such a society is completely unrealistic and at odds with human nature, and even nature in general. Competition is at the core of the natural world. Ignoring that element makes it impossible to generate real conflict, which is the basic currency of drama. If nobody's in competition or conflict, you've got no story worth telling.

When they did try to write around this perfect human society notion, it lead to one of Trek's most insufferable tendencies: humanity lecturing other races about their inferior culture.

It's a no-win situation.
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post #2199 of 3417
9/16/10 at 2:01am
On the subject of money, I think TNG and DS9 made it pretty clear that money was no longer a part of human society by the 24th century, but still very important to alien races, particularly the Ferengi. Picard explains to Lily in "Star Trek: First Contact" that they've evolved beyond the need for wealth when she asks him how much it cost to build the Enterprise and how much they got paid.

Then in DS9, Nog and Quark mock humans for not using currency anymore, while going on about how much they love it/how useful it is to them. I wasn't sure if it was still around in the original "Star Trek" since Uhura talks about shopping and Cyrano Jones and the bartender are bickering about credits in "The Trouble with Tribbles" and the aliens are betting with Quatloos (sp?) in "The Gamesters of Triskelion".
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post #2200 of 3417
9/16/10 at 2:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg David View Post
The problem isn't with the narrative tools or conventional characterization, it's that such a society is completely unrealistic and at odds with human nature, and even nature in general. Competition is at the core of the natural world. Ignoring that element makes it impossible to generate real conflict, which is the basic currency of drama. If nobody's in competition or conflict, you've got no story worth telling.

When they did try to write around this perfect human society notion, it lead to one of Trek's most insufferable tendencies: humanity lecturing other races about their inferior culture.

It's a no-win situation.
I don't believe in the no-win situation.

We've seen far more alien cultures depicted sympathetically in SF (granted, more in print than onscreen). Why should it be impossible to depict this one?
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