The Star Trek Thread - Page 50

No, there was really only one crossover. In "Birthright, Part 1" from TNG's season 6, Dr. Bashir helps Data and Geordi with something while Picard, Crusher, and Worf are visiting DS9. There isn't much to the visit besides Picard and Crusher talking about the station and Worf having a significant conversation with an alien who isn't even part of DS9's cast (guest star James Cromwell). Oh, and there's also a scene between Picard and Sisko in the DS9 pilot and an episode in TNG during which Quark talks to Riker on the viewscreen.

They really should have had more crossovers, maybe even on the big screen. Would have much rather seen the TNG crew involved in the significant events happening on DS9 around the time of "Star Trek: Insurrection", instead of the nothing story that the movie ended up with. Also, it sucks that in their one and only scene together, Sisko implies that he blames Picard for everyone Locutus killed, as he can barely conceal his (unfair) contempt for the man as a result. I wish there'd been a follow-up where he forgave Picard, because it just made Sisko look like a tool.

Anyway, to answer your question, it's not like "Buffy: The Vampire Slayer" and "Angel" where there's a huge advantage to watching the two series with chronologies in sync. In those two series, episodes pick up right where an episode for the other series left off. Nothing so direct happens between DS9 and TNG. On the other hand, my personal opinion is that the first two seasons of DS9 are really shaky and you're better off getting started as soon as possible...the sooner you get to the much improved season 3 and the really good stuff of seasons 4 to 7, the better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

The whole point of that scene was to establish the differences between the two, ephasizing the way they look at the Bajor situation. Picard has an optimistic view of Bajor joining the Federation while Sisko is skeptical of that concept. Sisko being bitter at Picard is part of his character arc in "Emissary", showing that he never really confronted his feelings regarding his wife's death and never moved on after Wolf 359. Besides, they do have one more scene together at the end of the episode where a changed Sisko asks Picard to cancel his request to be relieved of his commanding duties on DS9. Picard recognizes that Sisko mellowed out, wishes him luck and they shake hands before he leaves Sisko's office, contrasting the earlier scene on how Sisko left Picard's observation lounge on a bitter note.

Oh, okay. I understood the contrast in their perspectives on the Bajor situation and that was fine. As for Sisko's attitude about Wolf 359, I totally forgot they had a second scene together, so my mistake. I really can't remember anything about that premiere other than their first scene together and how lame and annoying I thought all the wormhole aliens stuff was.

Good point about the writers. That helps explain why the show got so much better in season 3, at least compared to the first two seasons. I still think it never truly achieved greatness (a few early season special bits aside) till season 4...a long wait, but worth the wait.
 

I'll probably end up alternating TNG and DS9 when the time comes.  That said, I think I'll save Voyager (and Enterprise) until I'm completely done with both.

Thanks for the input!

We'll see.  I don't remember caring all that much for Voyager, so I'll just assess it when the time comes 'round.

Naisu Baddi, The reason that DS9 improved...Leaps and bounds over the early seasons is that...Rick Berman was involved in the early seasons. Once Voyager was greenlit, Brannon Braga and Rick Berman were alot more interested in it than DS9. Ira Stephen Behr was the Showrunner from half way through Season...3.  That was when...Sisko shaved his head was allowed to grow a goatee, The DS9 crew got the...U.S.S. Defiant (one of the more...Awesome, ships not named Enterprise!), and War with the...Klingon Empire, and then the birth of the...Dominion War.  On a personal note one of my co-workers at Simon and Schuster, John Ordover and his friend David Mack wrote the episode...Starship Down!  I thought it was a neat episode regardless of my knowing John and David.

The thing I love most about DS9 was that the show could put the focus on any of the principle characters and still keep the show interesting. Kira, Chief O'Brien, Dax, Odo, Quark, Bashir, Odo VERSUS Quark...the show rightfully was rarely the Benjamin Sisko show. Avery Brooks was terrific (moreso when he loses the hair), and because the supporting actors were all so strong, they could hand off the baton from week to week. I think basing it on a stationary location was also smart--too many TNG episodes follow the formula of "random prop department alien colony X has Y problem which will be solved by doing something with the warp core." On the station that they technically didn't possess, there were dozens of chances to have characters set down roots and grow, as well as dealing with the political and social problems with the unstable Bajor government and the phantom of the Cardassian occupation. It opened the writers up to do some major character building without having to ride out a pre-required amount of exposition about a random race or planet--it let the conflict and drama come from the characters, not outside forces.

I'm also of the opinion that Odo and Quark are the best things to come out of this whole damn franchise, so maybe I'm just a raving lunatic.

Greg, you are just making the wait even harder for me!

Mr Stockslivevan, Well Rick Berman still ordered actor Avery Brooks to remain clean shaven (No goatee), and not shave his head and things like that.  It was only when Ira Stephen Behr took over, that Berman completely lost interest in the day to day of DS9.

Mr Stockslivevan,  Maybe Rick Berman liked to keep his name out of the headlines, but at Simon and Schuster in the...Star Trek Department, and there were...numerous meetings about Rick Berman disliking a Bald Captain, since there was already one in Star Trek TNG!  Plus, Rick Berman was in charge of everything Star Trek even before the death of Gene Roddenberry!

The bald thing is funny. I saw an Avery Brooks convention appearance where someone asked him why he wasn't just bald from the start and everyone laughed when he said people behind the scenes seemed to have this concern about there being too much confusion with Jean-Luc Picard. Yeah, right, because they look exactly the same once Brooks shaves his head. It also amuses me that most big fans on the show will agree that you can recognize the exact point when the show truly kicks into high gear as when Sisko shaves his head.

Just watched "Past Tense" from Season 3. A show that aired in 1994  predicted OWS, Tattoos as a major cultural thing, and Hipsters! Sisko does some speechifying about how the 21st century sucked, and in light of current events, it's hard to argue.

Plus, there is a guy who's like David Bowie who's pretty cool. Also, Dick Miller! And...Clint Howard!!!

Talk about an alternate reality......Nichelle Nichols could have been Spock?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/12/08/mr-spock-of-star-trek-woman_n_1136362.html

Watching Generations on HBO right now. Damn, the whole Enterprise B sequence is god aweful. And as cheesey as it is, I kinda like the holodeck/promotion thing.

Two quick nitpicks...if Picard declaired the Observatory off limits how the fuck did Soren beam over without it raising all sorts of a ruckus. And beyond that how did the Enterprise not detect an un-authorized probe launch and not raise holy hell until after the star had been blown up.

Nitpicks I know...but it bugs me.

There's a few set pics from Star Trek 2 floating around now. Hope they hit the front page soon so we can discuss them here.

I finally finished watching the entire run of Deep Space Nine via Netflix. Overall I'd say it's the best Trek series. But man, I wonder how much Paramount paid JMS to write their series? The plot and character parallels between DS9 and Babylon 5 go way beyond the basic premise.

I also was startled by how many plot and character elements from DS9 were recycled into Ron Moore's Battlestar Galactica. I guess "all this has happened before, all this will happen again" is for realz LOL.

So sad that, unlike Next Generation, DS9 kind of went out not with a bang but a wet fart. And it left me with a question:

What happend to that big long post...didn't have a chance to read the full thing...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

I'd say that's a better description for nuTrek.

After watching it again on FX tonight I'd totally agree. My only nitpick is that it just wraps up in too neat a package.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul755 

What happend to that big long post...didn't have a chance to read the full thing...
 

That was a recidivist troll, the one who drove Kate away. We're getting better at tracking him.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

Promoting all the cadets to various officers was very absurd, I suppose that was done just so everyone would be at their place like the series. They should have just shown Kirk graduate then the story flashes forward to his first command on the Enteprise, the reason the same crew are with him is because he hand picked them (Trek established that method anyway). Why not? They did flashforwarded a lot in the first fourth of the flick, makes sense they would do that again for the denoument.

The only way it makes sense is if Star Fleet suffered such heavy losses that battlefield promotions became necessary. I think only 9-12 Starships went to Vulcan..the rest was (as per usual) deployed somewhere else...dealing with a major crisis?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul755 

What happend to that big long post...didn't have a chance to read the full thing...
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead 

That was a recidivist troll, the one who drove Kate away. We're getting better at tracking him.

Also, I read the whole thing.  You didn't miss anything.  It was all arguments you've heard dozens of times with a lot of really lewd references towards women.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan 

Yeah she was a represntation of the link.
I watched BSG after DS9 and yeah the similarities are there. In that context DS9 is basically a nice middle ground between TNG and BSG for Ron Moore. It's certainly not surprisng when you realize a huge bulk of BSG's writing staff worked on DS9. One amusing similarity is that both shows have an episode titled "Rapture", and they focus on a character who starts to have visions after encountering an artifact on an alien planet.
Plus it adopted DS9's "character kills off another via airlock". And shape-shifters that can blend in like cylons...

"THERE ARE MANY COPIES"

So therefore, if she's found guilty, they quarantine their planet? Kill them all?

Other parallels between BSG and DS9:

That's just off the top of my head

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cylon Baby 

So sad that, unlike Next Generation, DS9 kind of went out not with a bang but a wet fart.

Yeah, it's a much bumpier ride than "All Good Things...", but it's not all bad. I think the basic problem was that DS9's producers were too ambitious and had way too many story lines they had to wrap up, some of which were crap. I loved all the Dominion stuff, but the big 'showdown' was a bunch of corny junk, as was its outcome.

They should have just wrapped it up with the Vic scene. It was really moving and would have nicely mirrored the last scene of "All Good Things..." with everyone sharing a nice moment together. The final shot was cool, though.

Just watched the TNG Next Level blu over the weekend. Of course, the transfer is great. About what you'd expect from the same group that made TOS blus. Having not watched the show since it originally aired, Encounter at Farpoint is still a total snooze, but at least it's pretty. The Inner Light was one I liked when I was a kid and it still works, even if it feels a bit inconsequential. Sins of a Father, I really dug which was a bit of a surprise to me.

I will be starting an earnest rewatch when the season-long sets are released but I'm not sure I'll love it. Still, if I can finish Voyager and Enterprise, how bad could it be? I might fall in love with the show all over again. Although that seems doubtful, so while I might just watch and enjoy TNG for what it was, I will be buying the DS9 blus fo sho. Can't wait to watch that show in HD.

They're doing DS9 on Blu-ray?  I thought that wasn't feasible since they did the effects on video and they'd all need to be redone or something for the HD format.

DS9 and the other show will get upgrade to Blu eventually, unless for some ungodly reason the sales for the TNG sets end up being abysmal.............which is unlikely.

Currently watching "The Captains", Written and Directed by WILLIAM SHATNER, on Netflix Streaming. Great Horror movie music ramps up as Shatner sits in a chair on a sidewalk outside the gates of Paramount, when CHRIS PINE walks up. The tension mounts as both Captain Kirks ARM WRASSLE each other!

It's actually pretty good. I was expecting Shatner to just ask Stewart, Bukala etc "what was it like taking over from ME? Did you ever watch ME on the original series?" In fact Shatner is a pretty good interviewer and a better story teller. Some great Shatnerian moments as well.

The bits where he seems to be awkwardly trying to hit on Kate Mulgrew is wildly uncomfortable. I also love how Avery Brooks is just piddling on his piano the whole time, giving almost Dadaist answers to everything, because fuck, Bill, who gives a shit?

That stuff with Avery Brooks was really strange, especially since I've really only seen him as Sisko.  The guy I'm used to seeing all eloquent, preachy, and focused just sitting there swaying on the piano singing and avoiding "real" conversation.  Shatner's a better interviewer than I would've been because he at least tried to roll with it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg Clark 

The bits where he seems to be awkwardly trying to hit on Kate Mulgrew is wildly uncomfortable.

It was uncomfortable because Mulgrew was hitting on Shatner right back.

And yeah, Brooks is one strange dude.

The legend of Brooks' transformation into mystical zen jazz guru in The Captains seems to be growing by the day, I must see it.

Every time Brooks was onscreen I expected a "thought bubble" to pop up over his head, with a smaller Avery Brooks waving JAZZ HANDS!

About midway through the film things get dark, as Shatner delves into the broken marriages that all the Captains (and I'd guess working actors in general) face. Stewart was really touching here, and Mugrew puts the screws to Shatner, pointing out that she had to raise two children alone, while Shatner had a wife, ex or not, new or not, to help out (with the kids and Shatner).

I also liked the Star Trek convention sequence, which starts with Shatner sitting on a folding chair, gearing himself up to make the rounds of the event as WILLIAM SHATNER.

I also like the part where Shatner admits to Stewart that he felt a "certain disdain" for Star Trek in the 70's. And he kind of admits to being an insecure prick during TOS: noting that he was getting bad notices as Kirk while Nimoy won awards.

Submitted for your approval...

Like TOS, TNG had it's share of gems and it's share of junk.

Gem: DARMOK. Despite being a retread of Arena it captured the very essence of the story-telling tradition.. sitting around a campfire, surrounded by darkness... the offering of comfort to a wounded comrade. Plus the language of the Children of Tammar was pure poetry. "DARMOK AND GALLARD AT TENAGRA...DARMOK AND GALLARD ON THE OCEAN." Oh, you don't get it?  "SHAKA, WHEN THE WALLS FELL..." and for those who don't like it I can only say, "KATAO BENEATH...HIS EYES CLOSED."

Gem: INNER LIGHT.  My eyes tear up when Jennine tells Picard as Kaman to..."put your shoes away." Kaman promises he will, then she gently dies and Kaman lowers his head in grief and years later  at the liftoff of the probe, he exclaims. "Its, me.... I'm the someone it finds ... in the future!" So powerful... after a lifetime the mystery is finally solved!

Gem: THINE OWN SELF. Classic I was lost but now I am found story for Data... and the moment before he saves the town, he pulls back his hooded cloak and holds out the lantern, banishing the darkness of ignorance... I love it.

Gem: FAMILY: I did not much like Picard until this one. " I suppose we all find ways to confront our deepest fears." says Picard's friend Lewis and Picard does exactly that as he finally takes on his older, mean-spirited and bullying brother, Rober... His face dripping with vineyard mud, Jean Luc gasps, "You were asking for it you know." and Rober replies, "Yes, but you needed it...You have been terribly hard on yourself." The monster has a heart after all.

Gem: SURVIVORS: Even Worf gets a good line  or two... "Good tea...Nice House." and "May I say your attempt to hold the away team at bay with a non-functioning laser was an act of unmitigated gall...I admire gall" and at the end when Kevin Oxbridge or the creature he really was looks up with empty, haunted, grief-filled eyes and says... "I killed them all...all the Husnock!" my blood runs cold.

There are other gems, Measure of a Man, Yesterday's Enterprise, Starship Mine and for those of you who don't like Riker, I submit Future Imperfect. "...My name is Ballruche..."  "But to me you will always be Jean Luc!" Nice.

Junk: Shades of Grey - YEEECH! and there were others so bad I blocked their titles from my memory. "You're a dead man Apgar... a dead man!" Gimme a break!

As for Voyager I can only hope that before I die I have Seven of Nine look deep into my eyes and say "I will comply."

Alright, I'm making an earnest effort to get back into Trek. Help me, folks.

Backstory: I was born in '84, and watching syndicated TNG eps (on Fox I think?) in the early 90s was a cornerstone of my childhood. I would watch them every single night they were on religiously. My most distinct memories are of the space bug parasite episode from S1 (everyone remembers that one of course) and the "everyone's addicted to the videogame with the bouncing ball" episode.

I also watched various DS9 season 1/2 eps around that time. I saw Star Trek 6 in the theater and loved it, and also saw all the subsequent flicks (except Nemesis).

After 94/95, all was quiet on the Trek front for me (besides seeing the movies in the theatre), until I randomly decided to buy Wraith Of Khan on DVD in '05 or so. Of course, that stuff is great. I realized I was missing out on the Shat, so I decided to enhance my limited Original Series knowledge in '08 or so.

There were boring episodes aplenty, but the good episodes, holy shit. Those guys knew what they were doing. Devin's episode guides leading up to Trek 09 sum up the greatness better than I possibly could.

After my TOS run was complete, I decided to see how the other series stood up to the test of time, now that I was old and wise enough to be outside the realm of nostalgia. I tried out the first seasons of TNG and DS9. It was more painfull than a car crash. Broken glass grinding into my guts and shit. Ouch.

Now, after reading other peoples thoughts and episode guides, I know better. Well, first, before entirely knowing better, I asked my friend for one of his TNG sets, and the one he had on hand was Season 6. Boy was that dissapointing. I liked about 1/4 of the episodes.

But now, we are in the present state of my reTrekication. I gave it another shot, and borrowed TNG S3, with the help of various episode guides (to avoid the boring eps). I'm now back into it. There are some great ones! I swear I cried like a baby during the Data's Daughter ep.

So anyways, my plan is to cherry pick the best of of TNG S3-5 and 7. Then, if my body and mind are ready, I will graduate to DS9 S3 and beyond. I have episode guides, but I would really like some trusted Chewer input to help me on my way. The episode guides, as well written as they are, seem to emphasize the importance of the "serious/important" episodes that are considered "classic" by the fans. What I'm interested in  is watchability. The guides don't account for campy entertaining qualities, which it seems like the notoriously vanilla TNG is lacking in anyways, but I don't want to miss any good ones.

*A side note: As someone only vaguely familiar with DS9, all this super serious talk of Sisko's hair situation is fucking hilarious.

Watched TOS episodes "Errand of Mercy" and "The Savage Curtain" recently. Both are classic episodes and really pop with the re-vamp.

Savage Curtain is the one where Kirk and Spock fight Kenghis Khan, Klingon Uber-Warrior Kalis, some witch-chick and a mad Starfleet Colonel. Alongside them are Abe Lincoln and Sarek, the Vulcan who created the cult of Logic subscribed to by Vulcans. They are brought together by intelligent Rock Monsters, and they are forced to fight each other to determine whether the philosophies of "evil" or "Good" are better. The notion of Captain Kirk teaming up with Abe Lincoln to fight Kenghis Fucking Khan et al, and to do so by throwing rocks and pointed sticks, is so ridiculous that it's awesome. And it's great how, by this time, when the crew of the Enterprise see a giant Abe Lincoln floating in space outside their ship, they are all like "oh Gawd, it's another alien taking a form we'll trust LOL".

I really like the Rock Monster. Very effective voice actor and the design is one of the more convincing aliens on TOS.

Errand of Mercy re-uses the old Roddenberry trope of a super-intelligent, super-powerful alien race poo pooing us primitive humanoid types for our Jewish violent ways. ( I swear Roddenberry thought the universe was populated by some kind of galactic country club that Humanity was never quite posh enough to join). But the performances of Shatner and Colicos elevate the material into the sublime. I really love how both Kirk and Kor express disgust at the Organians because of their "weakness". They practically team up, and would have if Kirk wasn't such an overt Racist!

Both episodes get 4 stars, plus four more stars for the upgraded FX.

"Errand of Mercy"

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTRan 

"Errand of Mercy"

Fixed!