The Star Trek Thread - Page 2

It's nice to see I'm not the only one who has some affection for The Motion Picture. I think, in the wake of Star Wars, they could have made a straight-up action adventure and, let's face it, that's what the fans wanted and deserved.

But I admire that they tried to make a serious dramatic film with complex ideas. It went a bit against the grain and showed that they were really trying to make Star Trek stand out from the pack. The series got more conventional and streamlined after this. Many would call that an improvement to make more lean and entertaining films, but I'll always remember that this film franchise started out with epic aspirations and almost achieved them.

I can't believe that with all of you rewatching Generations, nobody else fixed that for him.

I don't type Shatner. Up until recently, that was Fleed's...job.

Insurrection sinks to the bottom. Even as a 2-part TNG episode, it would have ranked among the worst. It's worse than the dreadful Worf Family Honor 2-parter, the gimmicky Data's Severed Head 2-parter, and the Borg-wasting Lore 2-parter.

TNG would have been so much better if it weren't for Riker and his fucking trombone. God, I hate Riker.

Riker, at every opportunity: "Jazz! It's Jazz, man!"

[pulls trombone out of ass]

WA-DOOP BOOP BLOOP!!

"How 'bout that Jazz? Let's hear it for Jazz."

Riker is a terrible character because he symbolises, innately, just how compromised the friendly TNG is compared to the more believeably conflict driven TOS.

Yeah. They make such a big deal about Riker having the power to keep Picard from going on dangerous away missions, but I think he actually uses veto power once in the whole seven years of the show. And if I'm remembering correctly, Picard goes anyway.

It's not just that, it's the fact that Riker is the only character, initially, to have any sort of libido and adventuring spirit and even that is handled in a really piecemeal fashion.

While watching Generations, I have grown to appreciate the use a models. While you can do anything you want with CG, there is just something well, hand made about those models that give it it's own look and style.

Wasn't Riker supposed to be the "Kirk" character? The action adventure guy?

I thought the choice of Picard as captain was sort of a masterstroke for TNG. There was no way you could go the swashbuckling adventurer route without paling in comparison to Kirk. It was a nice sidestep and allowed TNG to be its own thing.

I do have some nits to pick. How useless was Deanna Troi and what the fuck was up with a kid on the bridge?

Dynamotv, Worf and Deanna Troi were the only characters I liked on TNG. I couldn't stand Wesley Crusher, Data, or Captain Picard. I did like Picard in First Contact. The Enterprise E was also a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUge improvement over the 1701-D. It was a cooler ship and didn't suffer the Dolly Partonesque Top Heavy Saucer Section of the D. They should have called the original TNG Enterprise The Double D.

I was not a regular viewer of The Next Generation TV series. I only watched it sporadically. But I remember that Wesley Crusher allowed Jonathan Frakes an opportunity to show off his Shatnerian acting skills in an episode where Q makes it look as if Crusher has died (I think from a stab wound).

I found much laughter in Frakes' delivery of: No! Wesley! Dammit! Dammit to HELL!!!

So, if nothing else, at least Wil Wheaton was put to some good use during his short time on the show. Didn't he only last for like a season and a half or something?

I recall a single episode where Riker bangs an alien. The other 167 episodes have him wooing, pining, and saving himself for Troi.

It's interesting that you bring the libido thing up, because the Riker episode happens in the first season of TNG. Season one actually had sex in it. Data and Yar! Seasons 2 through 7 were suitable for middle school science class.

There's an episode in season 5 or 6 where Riker meets his transporter clone, and I remember reading about how they wanted to kill him off and replace him with the clone because his character wasn't working out.

Technically speaking Jean Luc-Picard and the lead into DS9 were the only decent thing about The Next Generation. I'm saying this of course with the Borg having been retroactively destroyed by their insane overuse.

Didn't Riker also fuck that girl who introduced THE GAME to the Enterprise, or as that who you're referring to?

It seemed much longer.

Riker seemed to me like he had a can of whup-ass in reserve at all times, ready to be cracked open. The raid to snatch Picard out of the borg cube in "Best of Both Worlds" was a swashbuckly as Trek ever got.

And I think Trevor refers to the episode where he has relations with Lilith Sternin.

You have Voyager to thank for the emasculation of The Borg.

I remember the first and second appearances of The Borg were scary as hell. You had a race that was so scientifically advanced as to be unstoppable. You even had proof of that with Starships left and right being decimated.

Fast forward to Voyager and destroying a Borg cube is as easy as firing off a few phasers. A disappointing turn for one of Trek's best enemies.

Speaking of "The Best of Both Worlds", does anyone think that made a better Trek Movie than "First Contact"? Also, that was one long ass summer when Riker said "Fire" and the screen cuts to "To Be Continued". Talk about a great cliffhanger and excellent resolution.

"Best of Both Worlds" had fewer drunken old men played as comic relief, but better tits. I'm torn on this one.

No, I was thinking about the one where he beds the queen of the gender-role-swapped planet. So maybe there are two instances of Riker having a libido.

How can you forget Minuet?

There was actually enough Riker shagging over the course of the series for the inevitable Highlight Reel Episode to have an entire Riker Shagging chapter. My favorite: the red-headed Irish space colonist who just walks into his quarters, drops trou, and says, "ye do like girls, don't ye?"

The "Hugh" episode of Next Gen went a pretty long way in emasculating the Borg. As soon as they made us sympathize with Hugh, the Borg were undone.

So essentially the Borg lasted two episodes before they became rote. Hell the episode after Hugh they were acting as fucking muscle for Data's retarded evil brother.

I'll be the voice of dissent here....

Though I have watched all Star Trek movies except for Nemesis, and find things to like about all of them, I really feel the movie series should have ended with Wrath of Khan.

Think about it:

Star Trek TMP (the Director's Cut is so much better than the theatrical release) picks up where the series left off. Kirk is desperate to regain command, and coldly uses the Vger crisis to get back to the Enterprise.

Wrath of Khan neatly re-states and summarizes everything that made the original series great:

<Boldly going where noONE has gone before (that's for you Fleed). This time it's via the Genesis project

<Kirk has kept command of Enterprise, knowing it's the only thing that fulfills him.

<The universe has moved on, and it's pointed out throughout the movie that Kirk is past his prime....except when it really matters.

<Khan is in fact a tragic figure: a SuperHuman with all the potential to do anything he wants. And 6 months after Kirk strands him, a cataclysm destroys any chance he has for building his "finer World".

<Kirk never "Bothered to check on their (Khan's) progress. Could that have been on purpose? Did Kirk know about the impending catastrophe?

<The Next Generation is shown in Saavik, Kirk's bratty son David, and Scotty's punk ass kid. Note that only the cool, (relatively) unemotional Saavik makes it out alive.

<Spock's Death. This really should have capped the film series. It dramatizes all the best of TOS: friendship, the willingness to sacrifice for the greater good, and maybe even an object lesson to Kirk to grow the fuck up.

All the movies after Khan succumb to Cheesiness and camp. They are more like victory laps than honest to God films.

And I wish TNG had never referenced TOS. I liked the idea that Picard and crew inherited the legacy of Kirk N Crew without perhaps really knowing what they achieved and what they encountered out....there.

Pretty much. All they've had going for them since is that convention fanboys think the Borg costume is fat-concealing. See also: Klingons.

You make valid points to support this in your post. But I disagree... I think, all in all, we got a very satisfying series of films. I would agree with you wholeheartedly if you said it should have ended at VI.

Although the three Next Generation pictures are sometimes entertaining (and one of them is quite good on its own terms), I don't really care, one way or another, that they exist.

I wholeheartedly agree with Cylon Baby. Wrath of Khan was the peak point for the Star Trek movies, and nothing since then really lived up to it. It showed the working of a ship at war, something that was never again touched on. It had drama, violence, a great villain, Shatner was never better, and stuff actually happened to the characters.

It has also aged exceptionally well.

Ever since, Star Trek has been too safe, too comfortable to be truly interesting. The most momentous thing to happen in the movies since? The 'death' of Data. Big whoop.

I've only seen four of the movies and they all sucked. All these years later and FINAL FRONTIER is still one of the worst films I've ever seen.

The Ferengi were at first supposed to be Next Gen's big baddies, until they turned out to be ridiculous. Why the series never did anything cool with the Romulans is beyond me.

Nearly all the people I've seen dressed as Klingons at conventions would never have lived to have gotten as fat as they were had they actually been Klingons.

I had already updated my sig once today, but that one's a keeper.

1. Wrath of Khan
2. Voyage Home
3. First Contact
4. Generations
5. The Undiscovered Country
6. The Search for Spock
7. The Motion Picture
8. Insurrection
9. Final Frontier
10. Nemesis

Shows:
TOS
DS9
TNG
ENT
VOY

TOS is the gold standard. DS9 had possibly the best concept and the best arc of any of the series (the entire War witht he Dominion was so well done) TNG had some great moments (Best of Both Worlds being the absolute best) but probably went 1-2 season too long. Voyager and Enterprise both had so much potential but the fact that Voyager essentially hit the reset button every week and Enterprise took two years to get it's head out of it's ass (once they started the Xindi arc it got good quick) are what downgrade them in my eyes.

Movies:
Wrath of Kahn
Undiscovered Country
First Contact
Search for Spock
The Motion Picture
Voyage Home
Generations
Final Frontier
Nemisis
Insurrection

Best Line: "What Does God Need with a Starship?" Capt. Kirk in Final Frontier

Worst Moment: Cmdr. Riker Flying the Enterprise with a Joystick in Insurrection.

They should have done away with Riker around halfway through the show's run, he was already the second captain on the show by then anyway.

Another example of the franchise's post-TOS handling of characters - safe, predictable and boring.

Even though everyone is wearing the worst pajamas ever, I think I might have to rewatch the motion picture soon. Probably when the bluray disc comes out. I've never seen the theatrical version.

James T. Kirk has to be my #1 pick for "fictional character you wish really existed". I would love to believe that there were men such as he fighting the good fight, always making the right decisions, doing sudden backflips, etc. No other STAR TREK character measures up, and that's why the only TREK stuff worth a damn is the stuff with Kirk in it.

And you can't call Shatner an outright bad actor. You can't give audiences a character like Kirk if you're a bad actor.

I also think THE MOTION PICTURE is pretty good. I didn't (couldn't?) watch it all in one go, but it has a nice atmosphere. And it begins with a long "overture" with just stars flashing by while music plays. So pompous. Yet so wonderful!

When ever I watch it, I tend to break it up into two parts. much better that way

There is only one Colm Meaney! My favorite O'Brien quote is from the episode "The Hunted".

"Watch it, Commander- the phase coils don't take well to ricochets!"

Great episode, by the way. Its the only time in Star Trek where someone avoids being transported away by straining themselves really hard like they're taking a dump.

Spock relinquishes command to him after Starfleet orders them to investigate Regula One. Kirk is provisional captain until Enterprise returns to Earth in III. He doesn't legitimately gain command until it's awarded to him at the end of IV.


David does of course survive until the next film.

Luscious Python, I always liked O'Brien on DS9 when he was married to Rosalind Chao, who I always liked when she was in the Chuck Norris Classic An Eye For An Eye, and M.A.S.H. Colm Meaney was good on TNG, but he really started to shine on DS9.

Kirk getting his command back is something McCoy tells him earlier that he needs to do. I like the way Wrath of Khan explores Kirk's character, his regrets, and how much he needs and relies on his friends (especially Spock).

I hate the way both Saavik and David Marcus have their characters screwed in Search for Spock. They were supposed to be the new generation. Instead Saavik is reduced from an ambitious captain-in-training to Spock's mum. And David gets it even worse.

I just finished watching GENERATIONS for the first time since whenever it came out on video. All of these complaints are what prevent it from being in the upper ranks of TREK films (2-4 for me).

Aside from why doesn't Picard go back in time to when he first meets Soran on the Enterprise, how is he able to go back in time at all after leaving the Nexus? Is there some bit of techno-babble I missed that explains the time travel aspect of that conclusion?

Oh, and I only really knew O'Brien from TNG but he was a favorite of mine. Good for Meaney to not let all the years he spent on Trek shows get in the way of him carving out a fine non-Trek career.

Even the writers admit they fucked up Picard's exit from the Nexus. In fact, they spend most of the commentary groaning whenever the Nexus comes up. It's a great commentary track, everybody should give it a listen.

One thing I'd never noticed until they said it on there: on the bridge when Worf is saying he won't be able to lock onto a probe leaving Veridian III until after it reaches the star Riker mentions that it's a "pretty big margin of error" and Picard replies with "much too big". Obviously, a pretty big margin of error is...well...a good thing.

I like that movie though. For the most part.

Guinan says that time has no meaning in the Nexus. It truly is a rift in the space-time continuum. Assuming it can read your mind and construct your most desired fantasies, it should also know where and when you'd like to be deposited once you ring the "next stop" bell.

Since most everyone else has done it, here's how I rank the films:

THE WRATH OF KHAN
THE MOTION PICTURE
GENERATIONS
THE SEARCH FOR SPOCK
THE VOYAGE HOME
THE UNDISCOVERED COUNTRY
FIRST CONTACT
THE FINAL FRONTIER
INSURRECTION
NEMESIS

I have to admit, it's kind of a weird ranking and I feel like it's not really indicative of my true feelings for the overall film franchise. I think that II-III-IV is a very solid trilogy that works best as such. But I'll go with it for now.

Yeah, it's not a bad film, and it looks amazing

I'll take it as the best of the TNG films. That's the show I enjoyed most, mainly because it caught me at the perfect age range for me to be into watching people flying around in spaceships. Wish they could have had one truly great movie for that cast.

Cool to see Glenn Morshower and Jenette Goldstein as part of Ruck's crew on the bridge.