The Star Trek Thread - Page 11

I just hate the first two seasons uniforms period..

Hammerhead's earlier post underlines the benefits of a little darkness on one's bridge. Working in surroundings like that during a skirmish must be the equivalent of listening to "Force Ten" by Rush, regardless of your circumstances.

According to Meyer on the dvd commentary, the pieces could also be put together in a different sequence, and presto - Reliant bridge! Pretty clever.

Why does it feel like 80% of STII is ADR'd? Just regular dialogue scenes, all dubbed over.

Another question - Starlog and official Tie-In magazines and such told me over and over in 1982 that Saavik was half-Romulan. But no mention of it in the movie; human eyebrows; cries during Spock's funeral. (As do I. Every time. Aw.) What gives?

Sidebar shoutout to Kreeper for joining in this thread and hoping he'll share more from the II-VI era.

Weren't Saavik and Scotty's nephew cadets training together, or at least both serving on the Enterprise, which was a training vessel at the time? Most of the crew in Wrath of Khan were all Spock's students or whatever (although Saavik was a lieutentant, not sure how all that shit worked).

Also, I seem to recall Saavik and and David hooking up in the STIII novelization (sue me, I was 13).

Here's some crap from Memory Alpha:

Seemed like they pretty much gave up on the character after Kirstie Alley left. By part IV she's a full on robot who is quickly ditched on Vulcan.

David. Saved us. All. Goodbye.

I just need that huge TNG boxset....then'll be set for any day I'm home sick

I like that Saavik is half Romulan, but they ignore it in the film. When Kirstie Alley doesn't come back, they change her to Valeris, write her as half-Klingon, then ignore that, too. But I guess half Klingon would have tipped the betrayal bit too easily.

Apparently, the Khan novelization fills in a lot of backstory for Saavik. She hails from a failed Romulan colony; her parents are probably a Romulan captor and an unwilling Vulcan prisoner, and as a cast-out child she's taken in by Spock after the Romulans have moved on and the full-blooded Vulcans have disowned her. On Enterprise she's Peter Preston's science tutor and goes into a violent rage upon his death. Later she hooks up with David.

And yeah, by III she's just a Vulcan. Feh.

Meyer swears that's Montalban's actual chest in Wrath of Khan, despite the weird disparity of his buff pecs and chicken neck above his necklace. Discuss. Or just tell us, Kreeper.

I want to believe.

And besides, that's the sort of costume design that comes of working with what you've got. I doubt they had room in the makeup budget for a prosthetic.

hard to say if the chest is real or not, that damn necklace is hiding what could be the decided factor..

That was Bennett using his TV background saavy to save money. He said that Paramount flipped when they saw so many different starship bridges written into a script that was supposed to be a low budget sci-fi flick. They were threatening to cut scenes but Bennett told them he could pull it off and still stay within the allotted budget. Even Meyer and the production designer thought there was no way they could make one set stand in for 3 different starship bridges just be changing lighting, sound, and swapping sections. But when they saw the dailies and the rough cut, it worked! The bridge of the Reliant, the Starfleet Training Simulator,and Enterprise. -- all from one set.

I think that's how it was supposed to be. There's that great scene in Spock's cabin where Kirk says, "I told Starfleet that all we had was a boat full of...children."

Wow, Phil. Glad to see I'm not the only teenager who read the ST III noveliziation. Now I can finally come out of the closet (where I'd been hiding with "Mr. Adventure").

Yeah, I remember being surprised how natural the relationship and the love scene felt between Saavik and David. It seemed to me that she definitely embraced her fiery Romulan half more in those private moments. When they're lying in bed in the afterglow, David notices a small green scar on her (back?) and asks her how she got it. Saavik goes into great detail about an accident that she had when she was (I think) two. David asks "You actually remember all that?" Saavik replies that Vulcans remember everything from the moment they're born. She sounds a bit sad about it.

Funny, it's just now that I realized that, despite having the hots for Robin Curtis, I had been picturing Kirstie Alley's Saavik when I read those scenes.

Holy sh_t! I'd never heard of that "Cause and Effect" story before. But I can totally believe it. Especially given Brannon Braga's lack of knowledge/respect/care of TOS and films. Whatta douche.

Fascinating. When Meyer talked about the Valeris/Saavik incident, he never said why they couldn't get her. I'd always assumed it was about $$ and Meyer was just being his usual diplomatic self. But this explanation makes a lot more sense. Thanks. That question had been bugging me for years.

I'd always assumed that it was her Romulan half crying. But I think I know why Bennett and Meyer continue to to this day to reference her Romulan half in interveiews and conversations despite the fact we never see/hear heritage mentioned.

In 2002 at a 20th Anniversary WOK screening, the panel (a Moderator, Harve Bennett, Nick Meyer, Walter Koening, and George Takei) took questions from the audience. I witnessed the following exchange:

FAN: "Yes, Mr. Meyer. Before the release of WOK I remember seeing photo stills in STARLOG that showed Saavik and Spock walking through the arboretum. Saavik was holding a book and her hairstyle and uniform were different. They were stills I'd never seen before or since. Was it a deleted scene?"

MEYER: "Yes."

FAN: "Well, that scene never showed up on the TV broadcast or the DVD release. Can you tell us what it was about, where it is, and where we might see it?"

MEYER: "I can't recall what the scene was about; it was so long ago. But as to where it is now, I do have an answer: the cutting room floor."

Chuckles from the audience.

MODERATOR: "That seems to happens quite a bit in film. Next question..."

As another guy starts asking the next question:

FAN (yelling in accusatory tone): "Well, where is it, Nick? Huh? Where is it? Why won't you tell us?"

Someone finally "shushed" the guy.

My point is that there are several scenes in WOK that we never saw even on the DVD. Maybe it was during this scene that Spock councils Saavik about controlling her emotions/Romulan side and you find out that she's a half-breed. I read the novelization a loooong time ago, but I'm betting there's a dialogue scene where it's mentioned. If there is, it's not a stretch to assume it's based on a deleted scene. Either way, Saavik's heritage not being mentioned in the final cut would be a great question to ask Bennett or Meyer about.

On another trivia note. Does anyone remember the TNG 2nd season episode "Sarek" (written by Steve "Howard the Duck" Gerber)? In the teaser, someone asks Picard if he's ever met Sarek before. Picard replies, "Once, at his son's wedding." Meaning Spock's wedding. Well, when STAR TREK VI was announced in the trades, They quoted a blurb from Nick Meyer who said "It's about Spock falling in love."

Now, since we know that Saavik was originally in ST VI, I wonder if Spock fell in love with her in one of the early drafts. The early drafts were written by Meyer's assistant, Denny Martin Flynn (R.I.P.) from notes/treatment wired from Meyer while he was in London finishing up COMPANY BUSINESS. He and Nimoy came up with the concept together. Given that they bonded during Pon Farr in ST III, Spock falling in love and being betrayed by Saavik in the end makes perfect sense (and great drama).

In the TREK novels, post NEMESIS, Ambassador Spock IS married to Saavik. Hence the tie in with TNG episode. I haven't read those books but I remember reading a review on Amazon.

I've been dying to read those early ST VI drafts for years but could never find them. I do know that they were much larger in scope (the gravity boot mystery was something else and took place on a different planet, not the Enterprise). But that's another question to ask Meyer about.

I wonder why Meyer didn't want to put it back for his director's cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rKw66EU5Fc

Thanks, Phil. I offered Devin access to any info I might have for use in his upcoming TOS film reviews, so I'm trying to save the most interesting stuff for him -- if he wants to use it. But once he's done, I'll be glad to open up on stuff he didn't use. I do have some interesting anectdotes from NEMESIS and ENTERPRISE, and when those subjects come up, I'll chime in.

Meyer says that of all the TREK questions he's asked, he hears that one the most. He's supposedly asked it so much that he seriously considered having a shirt made with Montalblan posed as Kahn (from the ST II poster) with the phrase "Yes, it's real." emblazoned on it, for him to wear at public appearances.

Apparently Montablan was in excellent physical shape but you couldn't tell because in FANTASY ISLAND and the Cordova commercials he was alays covered up in a tux or suit. He did have a slight limp (a horse fell on top of him during a movie shoot) but disguised it very carefully.

The 1st day of WOK shooting for Montablan was the scene where he confronts Chekov and Tyrell in the Botany Bay cargo bay and lifts Chekov up by one hand ("Whhyyy are you here?") Urban legend is that when Meyer came to the set and saw Montablan in costume for the first time, chiselled pecs and all, he turned to the practical FX guy and said, "I don't think we'll be needing your services today."

In the meantime, I'm glad Luscious started this thread. It's always great to see stuff through somebody elsee's eyes and you guys have some great anectdotes/info/storie. I love hearing people's opinions on TREK. The bridge discussion you guys had is a great example. Not only was it cool, it let me finally express something only Chewers like you could understand.

I also had no idea there so many other DS9 fans out there. It's great to hear Luscious, Greg David, and others explain why they think the show's so good. Even amongst sci-fi fans, DS9 is treated like the red-headed stepchild of STAR TREK. Reading this thread gives me hope that DS9 will be like TOS: underappreciated when it aired, only to be fully embraced years later after humanity/geekdom has finally evolved enough to understand/enjoy it.

BTW, am I the only one who doesn't like the ST V bridge? Or does anyone like it as their favorite?

Damn, Alexc -- you effin'nailed it!

I'd never seen that before. I'll bet dollars to donuts that Meyer/Bennett were so fatigued by all the different variations on that scene that they simply assumed that the Saavik line was still in there.

Thanks, Alex, for clearing up that long debated piece of ST history/canon.

Here's something that seems to get glossed over from ST III. New Spock is rapidly aging along with the Genesis planet. He enters pon farr. Which means he has to mate or die. We see Savik helping with some pretty phallic hand gestures.

So did Savik do him? And if so, did she do him the other seven or eight times he went through it before getting back to his age at the time he died?

I'm not up on the blu-ray threads, but season 1 of TOS is out today -

http://www.amazon.com/gp/mpd/permalink/m31FSL0A4ZKX3K

65 bucks on Amazon, and features both remastered and unenhanced versions of the episodes. How do you say no to that?

Kreeper, I also read the novelization of Star Trek III, I was 16 at the time.

So, speaking of Voyager, Robert Duncan McNeil a.k.a. Tom Paris became an associate producer and directed several episodes of CHUCK.

Fuck him.

Sulu refers to himself as "master of this vessel" in his Captain's Log at the beginning of Trek VI. Such a queen.

It's also possible that they decided that specifying Saavik's heritage didn't serve the story in any useful way. Viewing the film on its own, I find it more illuminating to read her as half-human (That would at least explain the eyebrows... and the red lipstick). Meanwhile, Spock might as well be a full Vulcan-- this is Nimoy's most emotionally-controlled performance in the films.

Speaking of II, I couldn't find the source comment here but what's this recent thing about people complaining of bad looping? I've seen the movie more times than I can count and I never noticed. Would this be an artifact of the newer 5.1 mix?

I don't consider myself a huge Trek guy but my father was. When TNG went on the air it was one of the few things me and my father (who could be a very "distant" man when it came to his children) bonded over outside of sports. You would think that it was the second coming of Jesus Christ the way my father treated it. Because of that I've amassed an unhealthy amount of knowledge about Star Trek that no non fan should possess.


Out of all the Trek I've been exposed to over the years DS9 still stands as the measuring stick for me personally. It was the only one of the shows or films that worked for me fully with the notable exception of Wrath of Khan. They took chances, they dealt with moral and ethical issues that I felt Rodenberry would have run away from. The Federation (especially later on but even in the beginning I think the seeds were sown of discontent in regards to Bajor and the "help" of the Federation) wasn't this perfect utopian society fighting a bunch of evil black hats bent on galactic conquest. It could be just as flawed and prone to the sins of pride and hubris that is woven into humanity itself.

The writing and acting of DS9 were probably better, overall, than they had any right to be. I'm shocked that nobody has mentioned "Far Beyond The Stars" yet in reference to DS9. It deserves a place in Trek lore as one of the best hours of television this franchise has ever produced and firmly established DS9 as a show not bound by the conventions of what Trek was before. Sadly, to my disappointment (and I assume due to outside pressure? Maybe Kreeper would know), marginalized it in "Shadows and Symbols".

The beauty of that episode (in addition to the performances, the subtle nods to the history of Sci-Fi and the examinations of racial/social issues of our more modern history with the utopian world that Roddenberry created) was its ambiguity.

A beauty that was totally scarred by an entire episode that seemed to be written as an act of contrition to the fans, Paramount, or even Rodenberry's own legacy as the father of Star Trek. That was all white washed by a "the evil bad guys did it to trick you" retcon.

Some of the most comically-bad acting in the entire TREK canon is delivered courtesy of the otherwise reliable George Takei in the deleted scene from TMP where he's supposedly so turned on by Lt. Ilia that he can't function.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWv340AUrws

Oh my. No wonder it was deleted.

Jesus.

I like how McCoy goes from saying in TMP, "damn it Jim, you USED this emergency to get your command back, you rammed it down Starfleet's throat!" to being all "Damn it Jim, get your command back before you turn into part of this collection!" in TWOK.

I just watched "The Corbomite Maneuver" - the crew is, as far as they know, four minutes from being destroyed, and McCoy's bitching to Kirk that he's going to rat him out in a report that he pushed an officer too hard. Jerks Kirk around, threatens to tattle on him in the face of oblivion, treats Spock like shit; he's a horrible friend.

I'm reading this thread from the beginning, and immersed in watching TNG for the first time. This comment completes me.

(Also, enthusiastically reading other what nerds have to say about Star Trek for twelve pages? My epitaph will read "I blame you, Luscious Python.")

edited to add - I totally forgot that CHUD's the reason I'm a Trekkie now in the first place. I can't neglect to curse whoever it was who had Khan's "buried alive" dialogue as his signature, the life-destroying bastard.

god I love that quote about Riker...it's so true.

I also loved how most major sports that we enjoy today are gone by the Next Generation except for (in small pockets) baseball. And that the only generes of Music anyone listens too are Classical, Jazz and Klingon Opera. No way does the Boss not survive until the 24th Century...no way...

There are no movies in the future either. At least no new ones, and holonovels don't count. I liked when Voyager had Movie Night though.

Well I watched THE VOYAGE HOME again and realized that Scotty should have been court marshaled for extreme laziness in the face of Armageddon.

"The override's underwater! THERE'S NO WAY TUH REACH IT!"

*Kirk reaches the override in seconds and releases the whales with minimum fuss*

Loving the avatar, wadew1.

I love that shot.

But I almost changed it to Kirk celebrating at the end of VOYAGE HOME. His child like enthusiasm when he sees that whale jump is priceless.

YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!
*points and slaps the water*

Even Spock couldn't help but laugh like a madmen during the wild pool party at the end. And fat old Scotty should be more careful, he almost crushed Chekhov when he swan dived into the water.