The Torture Memos

2 sessions inbetween each major meal then one before bedtime.

Fuckers were busy.

well, well if justice won't be served under Rahm and Obama, at least the Guiness Book people took notice.

He was only four more waterboards from retirement.

I'm not sure what the Obama administration's longterm plan is here, but there will have to be justice for the tortured and for America's stained conscience. That's not America as I think most people see it. That's some Dr. Mengele &^%$ and cannot stand.

I think they should approach this like a Mob-style investigation: catch the little fish and turn them until you've got enough dirt on the big fish to convict.

Nobody with any real political power will EVER be held responsible for any of this.

Most likely schenario: A handful of low level guards and privates take the fall, and Congress, the White house, the military all hope it just goes away.

But wasn't Khalid Shaikh Mohammed the architect for the 9/11 attacks?

Obama's refusal to investigate and prosecute is my first major disappointment with his Presidency.

One of the hallmarks of an enlightened society is not stooping to committing atrocities when atrocities are committed. Barring that ethical consideration, as far as preventing further atrocities from happening, torture has repeatedly shown itself ineffective at gathering substantial information.

In other words, your point being?

After the 120th waterboarding he admitted to working with the Soviets during the mid-80's.

No point just a question, then again I'm surprised it was not done more on him.

And hell, after my 3rd water boarding, I would admit to being the Stay Puff marshmallow man.

And who says we are an "enlightened society?"

Awesome photo Snaieke

Fixed.

Well, I believe that the ideals this nation were founded on would like it to be, and what many of us aspire to achieve just that.

But you're right: shit like this happening with no accountability for those who ordered it does point to the huge gap between aspiration and reality.

You ever heard of some sort of massive drastic action taken based upon information gathered from torture in the last, say, 20 years?
Actually, you ever heard of any sort of SUCCESSFUL action taken based upon questionable information in the last 20 years? Yeah, me neither.

Torture doesnt work, simply because its really, really hard to figure out once the tortured just tells you random crap they think you want to hear to make it stop, and on the other hand when are they playing up and havent yet been broken.
The fact that the USA insists on torturing nonetheless has more to do with helplessness in light of dealing with this sort of irregular wars, with the need to act in some way to appease the thirst for vengeance, and with giving the lowly army grunts a job that makes sense... IE beat the bad guys.

As weird as this sounds, you guys torture for the lack of something better to do.

This is pretty horrible. And I have a hard time imagining how you can drown somebody so many times.

As for the effectiveness, they claim they got some valuable information from him. Have they said what it is? If not, of course they could just be trying to justify their actions ... but you would think they did this for some reason beyond fulfilling some deviant water boarding sexual fantasy on the part of some high govt. official.

Possibly. So what?

Seriously, by the end of the Bush era, was there really any more for the CIA to learn about 9-11? Wouldn't they at that point just be torturing these guys just for the shits and giggles?

And, of course, Cheney's own personal spank reel.....

just asking, but I found a google search should have been my first option.

Oh I dont doubt somewhere someone believes there is some weird point to it. They probably type up reports about the information gained by these torture sessions, send them higher up the intelligence chain of command, and let the people there handle it. And at some point, the stuff gets discarded, or filed, or used, evaluated and put into a drawer as supporting evidence in case something real comes up and supports it.
Nobody in their right mind, and somewhere along the way such stuff HAS TO pass somebody even remotely competent, would use this information for anything except padding an already existent piece of intelligence. Its just not useful. Especially given that most detainees are out of the loop forever now, and the people they used to work with KNOW about waterboarding, guantanamo etc. and will have done their best to change up their ways if anyone of even some importance got caught.
I mean, how can you possibly believe torturing a guy who was part of a relatively small-scale terrorist attack (small-scale in terms of resources needed, not effect) 8 years ago will know ANYTHING remotely useful today, when the people you are fighting against change up safehouses, lines of communication and names every few months?

At this point, the entire torture thing probably goes on cause nobody with any power said "stop", because nobody really wants to get connected to it in any way. Its career poison.

Wait... are you saying 24 has been lying to me this whole time?!

I hope somebody reminds Chief Justice Scalia.

Stay tuned for proof that donating stem cells can kill you.

I see.

Isn't it enough that the President Said "We do not torture." And then it turns out we did?

Every man and woman in America knew this was going on before Bush was reelected. What's more, we all knew that every man and woman in the rest of the world knew.

If we can't have justice, can we at least get Bush's cheerleaders on the right to stop bitching about how Obama's the fascist?

I just wanted to preserve this in a quote. Nothing else to see here. Never mind the hypocrisy and the man behind the curtain.

Why? Can you explain what you mean?

It's interesting that people who consider themselves patriots still believe the Bush line that torture is ok considering that George Washington himself set down the standard when he ordered his troops to treat the British POWs well. It's about as unpatriotic and anti-American as it gets and yet even this morning when I was listening to radio shows, people were calling in with their GOP marching orders to talk about how it "works" and "is necessary." Scary.

I just had this discussion with a friend/co-worker. I had to just tell him, look we are the US ... we just aren't supposed to do this.

I also think the argument on the accuracy of this is irrelevant, even if the information was accurate, we can't torture!

No yt, they're not receiving their marching orders via email. They actually believe this.

It's because they can't imagine being tortured themselves, or that the process is somehow not that bad. It's absurd.

It also has a lot to do with the subconscious certainty that your enemy is somehow less human than you are.

While it's American not to do this, we are after all human. And in order to get information from an enemy, a human would do anything that's necessary to protect his/her land and family.

It's funny, from here it sounds like you're attempting to excuse the use of torture, but you couldn't possibly be doing that so I must be confusing your point.

I'm not excusing the use of torture, my point was that I can understand why it was used, and why others would authorize it.

So if you personally understand why it was used, can empathise with those that would use it and why, do you approve of it's use in certain circumstances yourself? Is it ever justifiable?

(I'm honestly curious here, not trying to play some game of moral "gotcha!" or anything)

Weren't you one of the guys stubbornly resisting viewing the Somali pirates as anything other than moustache-twirling sadists?

You can understand it? Really?

I think I see his point. You can understand the emotional logic behind an action while condemning the act itself. Which is why laws and due process are so important. We shouldn't act solely out of emotion when creating policy.

The arguments are, are these methods torture?

We can all agree water boarding is, but there are more methods outlined in the memos which are far from water boarding and I'm curious what people think (like exploiting phobias).

Then the other argument is, what do you do in the "ticking bomb" scenario. What do you use to save hundreds if not thousands of lives while still adhering to your values.

Part of the problem is, this scenario did not seem to be the "ticking bomb" one, so that question was never really tested.

Damn, the world must be a much more dangerous place than I thought if there were so many time critical stuff going on for a month that they had to use multiple waterboarding sessions daily to prevent them. Wasn't that the 'ticking time bomb' scenario that was sold back when the naive among us still weren't sure that torture was really going on?

I'm not sure what emotion has to do with waterboarding someone 183 times.

Has there ever, ever, ever been a "ticking time bomb" scenario?

The ticking time bomb is an elaborately constructed fantasy designed to excuse the inexcusable. It has no basis in reality and shouldn't be anywhere near actually dictating policy.

I'm pretty sure it never happened with it being a cinematic device and all. And another thing. How long do you actually have before everyone notices someone's been taken and starts changing their plans accordingly? It definitely can't be more than a few hours. Then why the hell are there interrogations still going on months after their capture?

Well lets look at the UN Convention Against Torture to determine what is comprehensible considered torture:

I guess there is no doubt that willingly and knowingly exploiting phobias is definitely torture.

As many have said before as soon as there is a deviation from these strict legal standards we are on a slippery slope that can only lead to no good. But that is the nature of the beast in regard to this "new" type of asymetrical conflicts. While I don´t have an effective answer on what would be the right military tool one thing is certain for me: If this is declared a "war on terror" and it is implied that "the enlightened civilications" fight the good fight against "barbarians" using the exact despicable means even for the right end will make you loose any moral highground and thereby loose even the faintest moral and legal justification for you actions.

Seems like there are not many examples.

There was a case during the Iraq war, not sure if it was a sergeant or what that was charged of abusing a prisoner and his defense seemed to invoke this ticking time bomb scenario. Too bad I don't remember the details, so can't really post much on it (still looking) ...

That would be my guess, but there are still a lot of grey areas allowed under that definition. For example, you could consider the threat of a long term of "solitary confinement" be a type of psychological torture. I can see others making the argument that it is not.

Anyways, this stuff is better to come out on the open and discuss it as a society which reinforces why it was a good idea to publicize this information.

None. Because it is a fantasy. A highly dramatic one that makes us feel less vulnerable to ragtag enemies we feel we should be "above" being threatened by, but a fantasy nonetheless.

Interesting tidbit on wikipedia on that concept (and where it originated from, a novel!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticking_time_bomb_scenario

Gasp!