Roger Ebert: How I Believe in God - Page 4

Originally Posted by weakfingers

James 14:14-26 (bear with this; it addresses precisely what you're pressing at)
"What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled', but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

"But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. "But someone will say, 'You have faith, and I have works.' You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe - and tremble. But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (all emphasis mine)

This passage is basically the biblical version of "talk is cheap". Context is everything. Faith is imperative to all of this, but the works must be present to qualify it. We must have the heart of servitude and obedience in order to prove out our faith. Our actions cannot redeem us; this must be emphasized. But without a true conviction and an action behind what we profess, that faith we claim is dead. Anyone who walks around preaching a faith that they're not living out obviously has no commitment to what they're touting.

Originally Posted by DaveB

The passages you've quoted seem to support what you're saying, but eenin's position ("any good work is pointless") seems substantially different. I'm not sure what eenin considers himself, but it sounds like he's essentially a Calvinist.

Originally Posted by DaveB

Some atheist views (specifically, existentialist views) are often criticized by a particular type of religious person as having no motivation for people to engage with the world. Without some sort of external approval, they'd have you believe, man might as well just do nothing at all (or, perhaps, do nothing that doesn't serve his own self-interest). I don't find this to be the case; a belief in humanist ideals is motivation enough.

Now, what's interesting is that it seems to me that your decidedly theistic worldview would encourage this very thing. If faith is all that matters and good works are "pointless," what motivates you to act? I'm not just talking about working at homeless shelters; what's the point of doing anything at all besides praying? It seems like you'd have to possess an incredible ability to lie to yourself to justify any action at all.

Originally Posted by DaveB

The passages you've quoted seem to support what you're saying, but eenin's position ("any good work is pointless") seems substantially different. I'm not sure what eenin considers himself, but it sounds like he's essentially a Calvinist.

Originally Posted by eenin

I am not a Calvinist, although I do share a fatalist outlook, and do have a lot of doubts about the ideal of freewill. I would not say "any good work is pointless," just pointless in regard to salvation. There is the ideal of heavenly treasures, though, and James does have a point. If you say you have faith and yet do things which are consistently contradictory to said faith do you have faith. Then again it might be said that no one has true faith either.

Originally Posted by DaveB

I have empirical evidence that New Order has true faith.

Originally Posted by DaveB

I have empirical evidence that New Order has true faith.