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The validity of an "Expanded Universe"

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
Most every genre concept has its own expanded universe, whether it be novels, comic books or video games. The biggest culprits being, of course, Star Wars and Star Trek. Some are below subpar (Blackflame's Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street novels), while others can be pleasantly surprising (James Luceno and Brian Daley's Robotech "novelizations", the few Red Dwarf novels).

There does, in fact, appear to be a hierarchy of expanded material. Novels, for whatever reason, are usually considered more valid than comics and video games. In the case of novels, novelizations of movies can be clues into earlier drafts and concepts and deleted material. Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith is a shining example of actually improving the material.

There's also the interesting occurrence of expanded material being negated by later material. For instance, all the early Dark Horse Aliens and Terminator comics. The former featured Hicks and a grown Newt escaping an alien infested earth and taking the fight back to the aliens' home planet, while the latter had Sarah giving birth to a baby girl, Joan Connor. All that material was later negated by Alien 3 and Terminator 2. Still, whenever that old stuff pops up again in new editions, they try to fix the old mistakes by changing names and such, but often it just doesn't work.

Star Wars stuff is even more bizarre, in that old contradictions (especially by early stuff like Alan Dean Foster's Splinter of the Mind's Eye or Marvel's Star War comics) are kept in "canon" but constantly being retconned or explained.

Some cases, like Buffy season 8 and Angel: After the Fall, act as "officlal" sequels, while others are nothing but fluff and filler. Still, I could be in the middle of real literature like a Toni Morrison novel and then, out of nowhere, some random Indiana Jones book from 1992 will catch my eye and I have to stop myself.

The interesting contradiction is that novels, in most expanded universes, are considered more canonical but comic books and video games are less embarrassing. I don't want to be seen reading a dimestore Battletech novel in public, but I have no shame in playing Knights of the Old Republic.

My question is, what embarrassing tie-in material can you not keep your hands off?
post #2 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
In the case of novels, novelizations of movies can be clues into earlier drafts and concepts and deleted material. Matthew Stover's Revenge of the Sith is a shining example of actually improving the material.
I remember the novelization for Return of the Jedi mentioning that Uncle Owen was Obi-Wan's brother, which conjured up all kinds of interesting and, alas, unfulfilled visions for Episodes I-III.

Quote:
There's also the interesting occurrence of expanded material being negated by later material.
Witness the depiction of Jabba the Hutt in Marvel's Star Wars series.

When it comes to this EU-type stuff, I tend to prefer novels based on RPG properties, mostly because there's more of a sandbox nature to the source material. Usually, a game presents a big world and the author just goes and plays in it. There's not a sequel on the horizon they have to adhere to or avoid contradicting. And they're not bound to a handful of "star" characters (although the D&D books seem to think Drizzt and Elminster are the only people alive in the Forgotten Realms sometimes).

I can't recall the last Star Wars, Star Trek, or D&D book I've read though. I flipped through the book where Chewbacca died, but I think the last SW book I finished was A.C. Crispin's Han Solo trilogy, and that was almost ten years ago. Those books quickly became a series of diminishing returns. Now they're writing books about inanimate objects (Death Star and Millennium Falcon).
post #3 of 36
Damn....how did Chewie go out?
post #4 of 36
Like the bitch he is.......


Edited to add, I seem to recall him being on a planet when it blew up? Something to do with the big bad that they created, then neutered. Blah, blah, blah.
post #5 of 36
A moon fell on him.

Really.
post #6 of 36
Thread Starter 
Chewie had a moon fall on him. Yeah, that's right. Extragalactic invaders known as the Yuuzhan Vong were the big threat a few years ago in SW, and they hated technology and used creatures that could create gravity wells, or some shit, as weapons and propulsion. They used said gravity wells to crush the Wookie.

The Vong were actually kind of interesting in that they were thinly veiled Islamic terrorist analogues. Unfortunately none of them had compelling personalities or presence like Vader and the Emperor.
post #7 of 36
Granted, it wasn't like they dropped a moon on him specifically. He was rescuing Han's kid from the destruction the moon was causing as its orbit decayed, and he got knocked away from the Falcon by a gust of wind or some such nonsense, and the Falcon was unable to get to him without endangering everyone on board, so they were forced to leave him behind.

But the moon did land right on top of him.

This was supposed to signify that the Star Wars novels were going in new and daring directions and that no character was safe. I think Chewie is the only one to have died. One of Luke or Han's kids did turn to the Dark Side though.
post #8 of 36
Thread Starter 
Star Wars novels exist in a constant contradiction. They're constantly trying to one-up the movies ("this super weapon is even more powerful than the Death Star!") while also claiming that the movies depicted the most important events in SW history.

Don't let Star Wars derail another thread...
post #9 of 36
I read the first couple of Indiana Jones novels that came out in the wake of Last Crusade, and all I remember about them was how dry they were.
post #10 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
This was supposed to signify that the Star Wars novels were going in new and daring directions and that no character was safe. I think Chewie is the only one to have died. One of Luke or Han's kids did turn to the Dark Side though.
I think that was during something called the Second Republic Civil War. Jacen Solo, Han's oldest, was tortured during the Yuzvan Vong thing, and was so traumatized by the experience he went all dark side. After he killed Mara Jade, he renamed himself Darth Cadecus, and was disowned by Han, etc. His twin sister Jaiden eventually defeated him in a lightsaber battle. The only reason I know this is because I spent an afternoon/evening a while back reading Wookiepedia, and it's never. left. my. brain.
post #11 of 36
Not to go back to Star Wars, but no EU novel has ever come close to Brian Daley's Han Solo novels. And those things are 30 years old. No galaxy-shattering adventures, just Han and Chewie cruising around in the Falcon being all smuggler-like.
post #12 of 36
The SW EU novels worked best when they weren't following the main characters from the movies. Tales of the Bounty Hunters or the Mos Eisley Cantina book (yeah, I had a lot of them growing up) were fabulous because these were just the background characters more fleshed out and with their own adventures. There weren't any canon-altering events, just little asides to help flesh out the beings we saw in the movies. In that regard, they can be fun, disposable filler entertainment that add some flavor to the dish without altering what's on the menu (when done right, of course).
post #13 of 36
I think that occasionally the EU stuff can be good (the first two Timothy Zhan Star Wars books come to mind), but then you look at the total pile of shit that is the Kevin J. Anderson co-penned Dune prequel/EU books, and you just have to ask the Universe "why?" Come to think of it, it was KJA's Star Wars EU books that were among the worst of their kind too. I think if I get a chance to meet that guy, I'm gonna hit him with a pipe.
post #14 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post
The SW EU novels worked best when they weren't following the main characters from the movies. Tales of the Bounty Hunters or the Mos Eisley Cantina book (yeah, I had a lot of them growing up) were fabulous because these were just the background characters more fleshed out and with their own adventures. There weren't any canon-altering events, just little asides to help flesh out the beings we saw in the movies. In that regard, they can be fun, disposable filler entertainment that add some flavor to the dish without altering what's on the menu (when done right, of course).
Didn't Tales of the Bounty Hunters have a story about how IG-88 had plugged into the second Death Star and was about to take it over when the Rebels blew it up?
post #15 of 36
Yes, and it was (at least to my then teenage mind) fucking awesome. Not only that, but he had hacked into robot production facilities and inserted a shit ton of droids with killswitches, giving him remote access when he pressed a button. But then those stupid rebels came and done blowed him up.

Didn't follow the main characters, though IG certainly was affected by them!
post #16 of 36
Tales of the Bounty Hunters featured Jabba offering Leia to Boba Fett as a reward for services delivered. In his quarters, Boba assured Leia he would not take advantage of her because he did not believe in premarital sex.
post #17 of 36
Well then my argument falls apart in that example. Really? The hell...eh.
post #18 of 36
Okay, enough Star Wars. If you thought the Star Wars EU made everything seem small, you should check out Star Trek. Not only does it turn out that the planet killer from "The Doomsday Machine" was built to fight the Borg, not only is Trelane from "Squire of Gothos" a member of the Q continuum, but the barrier at the edge of the galaxy the Enterprise flies through in "Where No Man Has Gone Before" is actually Q dispersed into a cloud for some reason.
post #19 of 36
Expanded universe fiction is the lowest of the low. Utter waste of reading time, completely shameful stuff.
post #20 of 36
Damn, better move Donald Glut's adaptation of Empire off the same shelf as Tolstoi.
post #21 of 36
Speaking of Expanded Universe Star Wars, I do believe they killed off Mara Jade a year or two back. But thats about it.

I think they're going to retcon Jacen's Dark Side defection in the Legacy of the Force series as well.
post #22 of 36
Thread Starter 
Devin: the whole point of this thread is to embrace our shame. I haven't owned a Star Wars novel in years, but my point is when I see one on a book shelf I feel the tug of my middle school years...

Edit: What about EU material for movies/tv shows that no longer exist, like the aforementioned Buffy and Angel? In those cases the supplemental moves up a tier. Or if the original creator, like Joss Whedon or Kevin Smith, is directly involved?
post #23 of 36
A moon fell on Chewie? Damn this thread for putting that information in my mind.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
My question is, what embarrassing tie-in material can you not keep your hands off?


Marvel's 70s series had interesting Mike Ploog art, but this 6 issue DOA series from a few years ago was the first comic to depict the characters the way they looked in the movies, and was a direct sequel to Conquest. I don't think I finished it.

post #25 of 36
The expanded universe of Archie Andrews is a triumph.

post #26 of 36
EU novels are really awful, but I'd like to point to two partial exceptions:

The Final Reflection by John Ford. The only readable Star Trek novel in my experience. Deals with the first efforts by the Federation and the Klingons to establish diplomatic relations. Features cameos by Baby Spock (ok, 8 year old Spock) and Bones' Deep Fried Southern Pa.

Babylon 5: The Fate of Bester by J Gregory Keyes Details the final days of one of the best villians to appear in a TV SF series.

Neither book is what I'd call Literature, but they are fun reads.

Note that in both cases, the stories take place around the central story arc, and have limited appearances by their main characters.

It's disheartening to see how many of these tie in novels line the shelves at Barnes and Nobles these days.
post #27 of 36
Thread Starter 
Why is Archie so sad?

I read The Abyss novelization, written by Orson Scott Card in collaboration with James Cameron. I know Card is questionable these days, but this book was very good, and really adds to the movie. I must also point out that 2001 was written by A.C. Clarke in collaboration with Kubrick.

Validate me, damn it!
post #28 of 36
I remember liking the Alan Dean Foster Alien novelization quite a bit. Then I grew out of the whole novelization thing. Seemed kind of silly, reading the movie you just saw.
post #29 of 36
Because a moon fell on Chewbacca.
post #30 of 36
Thread Starter 
So it goes.

Moving on, did anyone ever read the two "official" sequels to Bladerunner? Every now and then I'm tempted, but...I just can't.
post #31 of 36
The EU 'Highlander' books are pretty worthless. Shocking, I know.
post #32 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
So it goes.

Moving on, did anyone ever read the two "official" sequels to Bladerunner? Every now and then I'm tempted, but...I just can't.
Yes. They were "three" sequels actually. The third book is called "Talon of Night" and has a female Blade Runner instead. Decker only shows at the end for a cameo. I found the plotting of the Blade Runner a little too tedious and overcomplicated.

I love novelizations. They give a richer and more in-depth look at the movie you just saw. Orson Scott Card's "Abyss" novelization was actually used by Ed Harris and the Cast as they prepped for their roles.
post #33 of 36
Max Allen Collins (I think)'s adaptation of Saving Private Ryan was pretty good, too. That was one of the ones I read because I wasn't allowed to see the movie. Anyway, the book ended with the reveal that Miller's high school was renamed after him, and that "the kids today, they often wonder why." Or something like that.
post #34 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
Max Allen Collins (I think)'s adaptation of Saving Private Ryan was pretty good, too. That was one of the ones I read because I wasn't allowed to see the movie. Anyway, the book ended with the reveal that Miller's high school was renamed after him, and that "the kids today, they often wonder why." Or something like that.
everyoe know the best novelizations was John W. Campbell novelizations of the thing
post #35 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin View Post
everyoe know the best novelizations was John W. Campbell novelizations of the thing
I C wut U did thr.
post #36 of 36
I own all four "Darkman" EU novels. Some of the best descriptions of carnage are found in those pages.

I also have a fairly healthy collection of Bond novels by authors other than Ian Fleming. John Gardner's are serviceable, but Raymond Benson's "High Time to Kill," where Bond goes on a climbing expedition to retrieve some esoteric MacGuffin atop one of the tallest mountains in the Himalayas, is easily the best Bond novel not written by Fleming. That said, any one of Benson's Union Trilogy novels would make a spectacular Bond film.

Right now I'm revisiting SM Stirling's "T2: Infiltrator," which in my mind, is a stronger sequel than "T3."
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