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Mad Men Season 3 - Page 2

post #51 of 513
Did anyone else get the implication that Don was fucking around on the night that Sally was born? "It was the middle of the night . . . and I just got home from work."

If anyone could understand Salvatore's secret life, it should be Don. Real interested to see if that storyline leads anywhere. Sooner or later, Don may know the secrets of every person in the office.
post #52 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
Did anyone else get the implication that Don was fucking around on the night that Sally was born? "It was the middle of the night . . . and I just got home from work."

If anyone could understand Salvatore's secret life, it should be Don. Real interested to see if that storyline leads anywhere. Sooner or later, Don may know the secrets of every person in the office.
Yeah, I'm really hoping they focus on the parallels between Don and Sal this season. That seems where they were heading tonight. There was some really beautiful writing there.
post #53 of 513
Weiner comes from the school of David Chase. We'll probably never see or hear about the gay stuff again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
Did anyone else get the implication that Don was fucking around on the night that Sally was born? "It was the middle of the night . . . and I just got home from work."
I think that was just Don realizing he'd never be able to hear someone retell the night of his own birth.
post #54 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Bateman View Post
Weiner comes from the school of David Chase. We'll probably never see or hear about the gay stuff again.
What does that mean? Why do you think this? It would be absolutely ridiculous if its never addressed again. Subtle writing is one thing, but dropping a key part of a major character completely would be disastrous...especially after finally dealing with it in first episode of a new season.

I thought it was a solid episode. I'm not sure what I think about the opening. I feel like the shows trying too hard to give us the mythology of Don Drapper (since he wasn't there, he's imagining his own birth, which makes sense since he's a man who's all but invented his own life...but why imagine it with such detail, including the life of his foster parents before he even shows up on the door step...seems kinda silly and overly theatrical to me). I liked it more after I found out it was his birthday later, but the first couple of minutes seemed overly convoluted. It got better from there. I really like how Joan is going to be knocking heads with the Brit prick later in the season. I liked the dueling head of accounts story and that will prove to be interesting. I liked how Don hates the bottle but loves the rain coat idea. He's a man of mystery and would rather hide his big dick then show it off in an ad. The way they reveal Don via the ads has gotten better and better as the show goes on.
post #55 of 513
I love that the male British assistant is nicknamed "Moneypenny" behind his back.
post #56 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
What does that mean? Why do you think this? It would be absolutely ridiculous if its never addressed again. Subtle writing is one thing, but dropping a key part of a major character completely would be disastrous...especially after finally dealing with it in first episode of a new season.
I'm guessing that Sean meant that it would never be addressed in terms of Don bringing it up, not that it wouldn't have an impact on Sal, but I could be wrong about that. Don's no more inclined to bring other people's secrets up than he is his own (see Peggy's pregnancy), so that would make sense.
post #57 of 513
Right, but that just makes sense given what we know about the character. The fact that Weiner is the writer and that he's decended from David Chase feels secondary and immaterial.

I'm a little wary of Don finding out everyone's office secrets. A little of that goes a long way. It's fine where it is now, but if this becomes a theme it's going to get a little ridiculous.
post #58 of 513
I feel like this is an important moment in the long arc of Salvatore, but in terms of his relationship with Don and the actual incident itself, it's over.

ETA: I was being glib about "the gay stuff." I certainly didn't mean they'll never deal with his sexual preference or secret again. I just meant this particular incident will most likely never be referenced again on the show.
post #59 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Bateman View Post
I feel like this is an important moment in the long arc of Salvatore, but in terms of his relationship with Don and the actual incident itself, it's over.
Not sure I agree with this, even. It'd be like suggesting that the "pregnancy stuff" with Peggy was over as soon as Don found out. Does Don mention it to anyone, or to Peggy, again? No. But it changes their relationship from that point on. I bet dollars to donuts that something similar will develop with Sal.
post #60 of 513
The opening flashback was fascinating. The origin of Dick's name made me wince. No wonder he was eager to adopt a new identity!
post #61 of 513
I went to school with the girl who played Don's mom. It was a weird way to start the episode.

Glad to finally have this show back. Seems like they've laid the groundwork for some new, interesting storylines this season. The stuff with Sal & Don was great, and I'm really looking forward to seeing how Pete & Ken handle sharing the Head of Accounts position.

As usual, everything with Roger was gold.
post #62 of 513
The CFO was great, i love that guy. He's a perfect match for the show.
"Limit your exposure", got the ad and have fantastic advice in one line. Don's the man.
post #63 of 513
Yeah, that limit your exposure line was fantastic.

Also great was Don's reaction to Sal line about not having women behave like that to him. "They don't?"

But about Sal being gay I think Don's reaction comes from him knowing about how unqualified he is to be judgmental about someone else considering his own failings and not from some sort of liberal attitude.
post #64 of 513
I think he actually says, "really?" about the game stewardess. He also gives him a look when Sal tells the raincoat guys that he has a wife...as if he hadn't known that before.

I think the "limit your exposure" line is two fold. Since the context is work, Don is basically telling him "I don't give a shit, I'm not going to talk about it with anyone, you're good at your job and that's all I really care about." Also, he's saying, "be careful...because not everybody is going to be as understanding as I am." That's part of his character. He knows what it's like to have secrets. I agree, I don't think it's a liberal attitude either.

It's also kind of shitty, though. Don was being pretty blatant about his infidelity on the plane and the hotel. Sal doesn't have that luxury. But I think it's more that Don understands that Sal's secret is more severe then his rather than just being like "I can do this but you can't."
post #65 of 513
I had a different image crop up in my mind when Don was going over that ad pitch in the plane than the one Sal drew. I think that will be the fallout from the trip. I believe the ad pitch was a subtle way for Don to figure out if Sal's lifestyle impacts his work ability. I think it does.
post #66 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
I think the "limit your exposure" line is two fold. Since the context is work, Don is basically telling him "I don't give a shit, I'm not going to talk about it with anyone, you're good at your job and that's all I really care about." Also, he's saying, "be careful...because not everybody is going to be as understanding as I am." That's part of his character. He knows what it's like to have secrets. I agree, I don't think it's a liberal attitude either.
I heard the line that way, too. Yeah, I'm not sure I'd characterize it as specifically liberal, either - it's just as much libertarian. Don's a generally accepting person because he acknowledges the importance of secrets (and thinks that the future and present are always more important than the past).
post #67 of 513
Thread Starter 
This episode was one big "WHAAAAAAAAT" from beginning to end. Don's real mom as a child prostitute, Pete Campbell doing his best Anakin Skywalker (although it's clear from the list of accounts that the Home Office favors Ken in a big way), Sal finally getting some and then getting caught by Don, only to be given a pass. Not to mention the complete shift Don does when he realizes the stewardess has snuck her pin into his bag and turns around and gives it to his daughter.

SO GOOD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Bateman
I think that was just Don realizing he'd never be able to hear someone retell the night of his own birth.
Dick Whitman grew up being told he was the son of a whore, and he probably heard that story more than a couple of times when his father and stepmother were tearing into him. It's not that he's realizing no one ever told him the night of his birth, it's that he'll never hear the story told like the way he tells it to Sally.
post #68 of 513
I love that Cooper went from pimping Atlas Shrugged to Japanese proto-tentacle porn. He's like a typical fifteen year old internet user. I can't wait to see what he's going to be into next.
post #69 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
I had a different image crop up in my mind when Don was going over that ad pitch in the plane than the one Sal drew. I think that will be the fallout from the trip. I believe the ad pitch was a subtle way for Don to figure out if Sal's lifestyle impacts his work ability. I think it does.
That would be kind of silly. It presumably hasn't impacted his work ability before. Why does Don finding out about it change that?
post #70 of 513
I was going through the A.V Club commentors. And came across this:

Quote:
The fire in Sal's pants set off the GAY ALARM! in that hotel.
I admit, I laughed.
post #71 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
That would be kind of silly. It presumably hasn't impacted his work ability before. Why does Don finding out about it change that?
We haven't seen too much of his work before but he certainly wasn't doing any 'sexy' ads during the two seasons I saw.

I'll have to watch it again but this is more in line with what I had imagined.



Notice how the coat opens up revealing more leg and it is left to the imagination what is on underneath. From what I remember in the conversation, that is more in line with what I imagined Don was talking about.

What Sal drew, would be exactly what I would imagine a man who isn't attracted to a woman would draw. Sure it has a comedic edge to it but it isn't alluring. It doesn't pull your imagination in.

I may have gotten it entirely wrong though... I'll try to catch it again and see if I missed something.

Quick google of london fog coat revealed this pic... (NSFW) (not spoilery)
post #72 of 513
Maybe I'm pointing out the obvious here, but given how much the fashion industry dictates the models of a given era and how much the models of a given era dictate the beauty norms, I'd say that gay men have traditionally been able to get past the "girls are icky" factor to have careers in fields that exploit female sexuality.

If that was a test that Don was giving Sal, I got the impression that he passed. But I think that scene was more, as Parker wrote, a means of Don saying the work is all that matters to him, but that Sal needs to "limit his exposure" when it comes to others.

ETA: For the record, I did picture what Don was describing to be more like the pictures Snaieke posted, but I'm not sure that that's important.
post #73 of 513
I think it's just a matter of personal interpretation. I was picturing pretty much exactly what Sal drew.
post #74 of 513
I spent the hour geeking out over everything and not watching it like a grownup. I need to watch it again. But letting the stewardess' wings get pinned on his daughter was just a juicy ball of awful from Don. They're still daring us to side with him. And we do.

Jared Harris is a very welcome addition.

Is Joan bigger this year?
post #75 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I spent the hour geeking out over everything and not watching it like a grownup. I need to watch it again. But letting the stewardess' wings get pinned on his daughter was just a juicy ball of awful from Don. They're still daring us to side with him. And we do.

Jared Harris is a very welcome addition.

Is Joan bigger this year?
She looked bigger, all I kept thinking was... "When were those pictures from Esquire taken?"


The whole trip itself just killed me. All the work he did to get his family back and that whole trip to California from last season, the redemption... and here he is.. tempted and he goes for the apple yet again.

His imagined birth, could be a foreshadow of what is to come. The stewardess is based in New York.. what if she got knocked up? Goes looking for Betty's brother Bill.

Definitely a fantastic premier episode.
post #76 of 513
Damn, Snaieke, that's a good point - screwing around in his brother-in-law's name is reckless and stupid, but I doubt the show will go that soap opera about it.

Check the comments
- Sal's bellhop scene is the show's very own Michael Vick signing. People are jumping ship over this?
post #77 of 513
Thread Starter 
I think the fact that the jump between November of 1962 and (based on what I've read) April of 1963 means a lot of this stuff is still up in the air. Don and Betty may still be together because of the baby, but as Weiner's pointed out in that interview, if it werent' for that, the marriage probably would have been over. Don is still a bad guy in a lot of ways, and I do think it's interesting how he seems to be back to his pre-California self. (We also got another glimpse as to who Don Draper is as this was probably the most extensive foreplay scene we'd seen on the show, and it fit with what we know about Don's proclivities.) You couple that with the way the last season ended, and there are a lot of questions that remain. You wonder what Don and Betty really did talk about, and, even though it's clear Don was more important to the Brits than Duck, what they did to get him back. (I like how Don seems a little uncomfortable in his new role as the "face of the company.")

But I'm in Phil's boat -- I spent so much time freaking out over what was going down and was so happy it was back, I need to watch it again fo sho.

The idea that Draper has two birthdays is one thing that's sticking with me. It's been a while since I saw the first season but I seem to remember the actual Don Draper being a bit older. I wonder how old Don really is.
post #78 of 513
The London Fog campaign was based on a real campaign, though I think it was later in the '60s. Also the flight pin used to actually be a thing you bought kids, I'm pretty sure Don really did get it for his daughter, and that we were meant to assume she'd found something more damning. I could be wrong though.
post #79 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post

Check the comments
- Sal's bellhop scene is the show's very own Michael Vick signing. People are jumping ship over this?
Joan getting raped by her husband? That's great TV! Two groan men kissing? ICKY GROSS GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!

As for the ad, Snaieke, I know what you're talking about. I was thinking of something slightly different too. But we didn't even see the final version and for all we know that was just one drawing idea. Also, this isn't a "sex" ad. Don hates "sex" ads (as evidenced by his hatred of the "sex sells philosophy from Season 2 and his reaction to the big bottle as dick ad in this episode). The ads about revealing something, not showing something. And Don knows Sal will be perfect for it.

Also, the other guys in the office dug it.
post #80 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
I love that Cooper went from pimping Atlas Shrugged to Japanese proto-tentacle porn. He's like a typical fifteen year old internet user. I can't wait to see what he's going to be into next.
That's one thing I love about this show. It makes you absolutely love an ornery old-school Ann Rayn capitalist, and not because he's devious, but because it doesn't really seem like he is. The part from the premier that stuck with me the most was the line where the guy they fire at the beginning asks why they waited so long to fire him, they tell him they thought it was decent to wait considering his wife was going through treatment for cancer, and he says "That was decent." It shows that even for someone like Cooper, who is uber-capitalist extreme, money itself isn't necessarily what drives him or business. To him business is about something more than just the accumulation of capital, and one thing that factors into it is basic human decency. IN that way he kind of reminds me of Jack from 30 Rock. Although the philosophies held by these characters are completely disparate from my own in real life, I love that through art and entertainment I can not only understand them, but unapologetically side with them.

It reminds me of the first season election episode, that draws parallels between Pete/Don and Kennedy/Nixon. Usually, you would expect a weaselly character like Pete to be the embodiment of what Nixon stood for, and for the handsome hero, Don, to be Kennedy. But in this show, it's reversed, and I appreciate the uniqueness of that.
post #81 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
his reaction to the big bottle as dick ad in this episode
Don and Sal being snarky about that ad is one of my favourite moments, but this episode is just full of great moments.

Quote:
Don's real mom as a child prostitute
That's a bit much, she looked in her early twenties to me.

I laughed at 'his name is Dick, after the wish his mother should have lived to see,' and then I felt bad about it.

One idea that the lengthy flashback planted that will probably never be referenced: is the story about Don's father being killed when he was kicked by a mule a lie? Don's adoptive mother kept having stillbirths because his Dad was either knocking her around, or into pretty rough sex, regardless of her condition. Presumably he died after she became pregnant with Adam, but before Adam's birth, since he wasn't present in that flashback. It's possible that being forced to raise her husband's whoreson, and not having a son of her own finally pushed her a bit too far, and after finding out she was pregnant again she killed him herself so she could finally have her own child.
post #82 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Joan getting raped by her husband? That's great TV! Two groan men kissing? ICKY GROSS GET IT OFF GET IT OFF!
Bolded because it works in so many ways.

And I agree. If with everything that happened so far in this show, it's watching two men make out that upsets you, maybe you should try to make out with the front end of a moving bus or a subway train.
post #83 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
One idea that the lengthy flashback planted that will probably never be referenced: is the story about Don's father being killed when he was kicked by a mule a lie? Don's adoptive mother kept having stillbirths because his Dad was either knocking her around, or into pretty rough sex, regardless of her condition. Presumably he died after she became pregnant with Adam, but before Adam's birth, since he wasn't present in that flashback. It's possible that being forced to raise her husband's whoreson, and not having a son of her own finally pushed her a bit too far, and after finding out she was pregnant again she killed him herself so she could finally have her own child.
The thing is, how does he know this much information about his birth? How does he know he was named Dick by way of fever dream flashback? He can't possibly know that information, right? So he's just making it up in his head. I would wager that at least half of that information is speculation at best. It's another example of the kind of man Don is. He'll just invent something about himself to fill him up. Because really he's just empty inside. That's why the ending is so tragic. Someone is there to tell Sally what happened the night she was born. Who was there to tell Don?
post #84 of 513
Thread Starter 
I mentioned this above and Alan Sepinwall talked about it in his blog on the show, too, but I do tend to lean towards the idea that the origin/story of Don's birth were something at were used against him as a "whorechild." But it seems, upon reflection, that the very stylized, theatrical, Steinbeckian opening sequence show that Don -- as others have said -- has taken that hurt and twisted it into something that makes his parents look bad and his mother look good. Don is taking the reality and selling himself a fantasy. Not to mention the mythological aspects of being almost literally left on a doorstep in the middle of the night...in a basket, no less.

I definitely think this is something we're going to return to over the course of the season, whether it's finding out the truth behind the fantasy* or having Don's perception of things catch up to him...I'm excited to find out.

As someone who enjoys talking about reactions to the show as much as the show itself, I really liked this blog from Newsweek about female reactions to the series and the character of Don Draper. I know a lot of people who share this opinion of Draper the character and Hamm the actor, and I also know a lot of women in their twenties who feel the same way about Elliot Stabler/Chris Meloni from SVU -- that he's a "man's man," the kind that isn't around anymore.

*As was pointed out in many commentaries/blogs, the whole London Fog thing is a great summary of the episode, and the show. London Fog is a "great name," but the reality behind it is that it was this dirty, disgusting thing. And you could very easily apply that to what we saw of Don's birth and see that there's probably a dirty truth behind it.
post #85 of 513
Ha ha, Roger's daughter's wedding is going to suck.

The Don Draper "Make Every Woman Watching Want To Bang Him" Moment: Telling Betty's little brother what's up. "We'll pretend you did the right thing on your own." Betty's dad with a Lincoln is going to go really badly.

Pat's Steaks shoutout!
post #86 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
"We'll pretend you did the right thing on your own."

Pat's Steaks shoutout!
Damn Don is a complete bad ass. How great it would be to be that cock sure in life.
Great ep tonight!

And damn her wedding is going to BLOW
post #87 of 513
The premiere sort of left me cold in a number of ways, but man this episode from head to toe, was brilliant.

The Peggy slowly turning into Don, aspect being the best handled bit. Mostly her leaving and not even giving him the company name or hers.

I am also damn happy Don will not be responsible for the demolition of Penn Station.

And I am surprised how blatantly they dropped the Wedding Invitation reveal.

And Ham had the swagger turned up to 11 the whole episode.
post #88 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharpel007 View Post
And I am surprised how blatantly they dropped the Wedding Invitation reveal.
I'm gonna be honest, I didn't notice it at first.
post #89 of 513
Ok, I guess I just wasn't paying attention, what was up with the wedding invitation reveal?
post #90 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecallahan View Post
Ok, I guess I just wasn't paying attention, what was up with the wedding invitation reveal?
I didn't catch it at first, either, but I'm terrible with historical dates.
post #91 of 513
Who gets married on a Friday?
post #92 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Woods View Post
I'm gonna be honest, I didn't notice it at first.
Nor did I, I ended up watching the show again later that night and it hit me.

And I agree, married on a Friday?
post #93 of 513
I also really liked the not-so subtle shift in Don's demeanor toward Betty's family from when he was their guest last season to now, when they're in his house. He drops all pretense of civility when it suits him, down to yelling down the hall for her brother, like he's one of his kids. Little bits of human detail like that keep me coming back.
post #94 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post
Who gets married on a Friday?
I think the invite was for Nov 23rd the Saturday after . . . stuff happens.

Moss doing "Bye Bye Birdie" in front of her mirror was both cringe-inducing and kind of sexy.
post #95 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ratty View Post
I think the invite was for Nov 23rd the Saturday after . . . stuff happens.
Yeah, it was.
post #96 of 513
Stuff happens on Nov 22nd? Common man, keep this shit spoiler free!
post #97 of 513
I don't get what Peggy's problem was with Ann Margret in Bye Bye Birdie? She jealous of her or something?

I thought she acted like a bitch with her date tonight.
post #98 of 513
Ha. I'm still back on Season 1, haven't caught up yet.

But my girlfriend shouted to me to "come look," today, and lo and behold, my ex-girlfriend* played the "maypole ringleader" in the new episode.


*I must concede, it was only 9th grade, only for a week, and we didn't do anything to speak of. But still! I get to claim it, goddamnit!
post #99 of 513
I think Don was daydreaming about your ex's bush when he was stroking the grass.
post #100 of 513
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
I think Don was daydreaming about your ex's bush when he was stroking the grass.
That's what we said. Which is extra funny if you know her in real life. (i.e. consider my "didn't do anything to speak of" comment plus "dated for about a week." haha. Seriously, she's a very sweet girl though. Still weird seeing her pop up in shows/Twix commercials. But hey... at least she's elevated from All My Children.)
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