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Give me 5 movies I need to watch RIGHT NOW to get me a horror edumacation...

post #1 of 81
Thread Starter 
I've never been a horror fan before. I stopped watching scary movies at a really young age, and I have no clue what constitutes good or bad horror as a result. I am a clean slate; indoctrinate me. Give me 5 movies I need to rent right now to introduce me to what good horror is or can be!
post #2 of 81
Night of the Living Dead
Bride Of Frankenstein
Psycho
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974)
The Exorcist
post #3 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Night of the Living Dead
Bride Of Frankenstein
Psycho
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974)
The Exorcist
Except that I had the Omen, in place of Bride of Frankenstein that was my list exactly.
post #4 of 81
We did a Horror Movie Draft last year. For what it's worth, here's the Chosen List from it.

In addition to Phil's list, I'd suggest:
'Nosferatu'
'The Wicker Man'
'Halloween'
'The Shining'
'The Thing' (both versions, but especially the Kurt Russell one)
post #5 of 81
Or go to the horror draft chosen list, and disregard all Tati's picks.
post #6 of 81
All good suggestions so far. Given that this was all inspired by DEAD SNOW, I'm gonna stick with movies of a similar tone...

1) EVIL DEAD II
2) RE-ANIMATOR
3) KILLER CLOWNS FROM OUTER SPACE
4) AN AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON
5) RETURN OF THE LIVING DEAD
post #7 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
We did a Horror Movie Draft last year. For what it's worth, here's the Chosen List from it.

In addition to Phil's list, I'd suggest:
'Nosferatu'
'The Wicker Man'
'Halloween'
'The Shining'
'The Thing' (both versions, but especially the Kurt Russell one)
You mean the original Wicker Man, and not the Nicolas Cage remake, right?

Also, what are your guys thoughts on some of the newer horror movies like Dagon, and Cthulu? I really enjoy HP Lovecraft's stories and the Call of Cthulu role-playing game gets regular rotation in our group...
post #8 of 81
Yes, I meant the original versions of 'The Wicker Man', 'Nosferatu', and 'Halloween'; the remake of 'The Wicker Man' is one HELL of a good comedy, though.
post #9 of 81
Halloween, The Thing (1982), The Exorcist, Re-Animator, and Funny Games (U.S.), in no particular order, are 5 essential cuts from the 70's onwards.
post #10 of 81
Thread Starter 
You know, I did see Funny Games this year (rented it on a recommendation from a friend). It was disturbing to be sure, but is it horror when all you do while watching a movie is scream at the characters to actually DO something?? I wanted to kill the husband in that film worse than I wanted to kill Private Upham from Saving private Ryan, and that's saying something...
post #11 of 81
Yeah, I took some heat for picking Funny Games, but I stand by that choice. It's absolutely a horror film.
post #12 of 81
1: Uzumaki
2: Session 9
3: Slither
4: The Mist
5: Dawn of the Dead
post #13 of 81
Halloween
The Exorcist
Evil Dead
Texas Chain Saw Massacre
Physco
and the one I'll get some slack on: Tie - Friday the 13th/A Nightmare on Elm Street
post #14 of 81
In addition to all of the great choices already listed, I would throw Suspiria in there somewhere. It's absolutely essential horror viewing. Between the visuals, the music, and the sort of disjointed storytelling, it's like watching a nightmare on film.
post #15 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
Yeah, I took some heat for picking Funny Games, but I stand by that choice. It's absolutely a horror film.
Fair play to you.
post #16 of 81
Definitely give a look at that Horror Draft. And great choices have already been thrown your way. Here are 5 classics of the 70s I would definitely recommend that haven't been mentioned yet.

Don't Look Now.
The Hills Have Eyes.
Roman Polanski's Macbeth.
The Fury.
Martin.


Also... In his seminal book Danse Macabre, Stephen King actually classifies both Looking for Mr. Goodbar and Midnight Express as horror films. In some ways, he's right.

And speaking of Funny Games, I have a hard time really looking at it as a straight horror film. Though it's definitely a very thought-provoking meditation on the genre. But a recent film that has something in common with it and actually really scared the shit out of me was The Strangers.

I was pleasantly surprised. I was expecting total shit. It was a very well-crafted film, I thought. A bit self-aware of how good it's trying to be, but effective nonetheless.
post #17 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erix View Post
And speaking of Funny Games, I have a hard time really looking at it as a straight horror film. Though it's definitely a very thought-provoking meditation on the genre. But a recent film that has something in common with it and actually really scared the shit out of me was The Strangers.
Absolutely. The Strangers is Funny Games played deadly serious and without the winking meta contextualization (if that makes any sense).
post #18 of 81
Is this some kind of psychology experiment? I find it hard believing that you've been a chud board member since 2000 and know so little about horror. I mean, maybe not obscure horror, but surely you've seen everything on Phil's list. Even my Mom has seen The Exorcist.

Maybe you're just a feral child who went out of the way to avoid horror. I'm not judging here, just dumbfounded that you've been here for so long and are a "blank slate."

In addition to Phil's list, Deep Red and Alien. Lots of good ones on the draft list, too. Looks like you're in good hands.
post #19 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
Is this some kind of psychology experiment? I find it hard believing that you've been a chud board member since 2000 and know so little about horror. I mean, maybe not obscure horror, but surely you've seen everything on Phil's list. Even my Mom has seen The Exorcist.

Maybe you're just a feral child who went out of the way to avoid horror. I'm not judging here, just dumbfounded that you've been here for so long and are a "blank slate."

In addition to Phil's list, Deep Red and Alien. Lots of good ones on the draft list, too. Looks like you're in good hands.
Alien I've seen, but I consider it more science fiction than horror (if only marginally). Don't forget, despite the obvious love of horror films Nick et. al. have, this site is about so much more than that. I am not as huge of a movie fan in general as some of the people here, and I have heard of or read about many of the movies you guys have listed above. I've just never had the strong urge to see them before now for some reason. I've never understood the attraction to horror as a genre, so I thought I would try to. Also: I was, as you suggested, raised feral.
post #20 of 81
That's cool. Like I said, not judging, just curious.

Alien is, without a doubt, gothic horror. Did you like it?
post #21 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
That's cool. Like I said, not judging, just curious.

Alien is, without a doubt, gothic horror. Did you like it?
Loved it. So many great things about that movie. I think I am also one of the few who preferred the extended edition of Aliens too. The shot at the beginning where they show the colony full of life and activity was such an awesome counterpoint to the desolation you get to see later in the film.
post #22 of 81
Tod Browning's Freaks needs to be added to the list.

As long as we're doing classics how about these as the other four spots:

Dead of Night - really cool British production about a group of strangers brought together because they have all appeared in one man's nightmares.

The Abominable Snowman of the Himilayas - One of the least talked about Hammer pics but has a blueprint for a creature feature that most modern ones should follow.

The Innocents - Turn of the Screw ratcheted up a few notches. Beautiful cinematography by Freddie Francis.

The Birds - It's Hitch woth Tippi Hedren and killer birds. What's not to love?
post #23 of 81
I got here too late. I was gonna sweep in with Freaks and Suspiria, but have now been beaten to it. Still:

1. Freaks
2. Black Sunday
3. Night of the Living Dead
4. Suspiria
5. The Fly (remake)

I think that covers the years pretty well.
post #24 of 81

movies to SCAR you and put hair en su culo!

Rule 1 newbie: horror today SCARS rather than scares. I think both are valuable but the scars hurt more. I'm not going to waste a list right now about horror's past and the great ones you should pick up. I don't have ten billion years and I know you probably don't want to run all over kingdom come looking for one thing that's 17 years old. You're a newbie and you will likely just go to Walmart, which is fine. I do both myself. Without further ado, movies that hurt!:

INSIDE - frenchy splatter movie that hurts. Two chicks fighting over a baby. Sounds simple. Believe me. IT HURTS. I've never felt so sad over the course of a movie and it got worse with the gutpunch ending. You will not laugh during this. You will be terrified and you might cry at the end. A terrifying experience.

WOLF CREEK - Australian horror flick. Salvation does not come with daylight. Screams never hurt so bad. DO NOT MAKE CROCODILE DUNDEE JOKES WITH PEOPLE YOU JUST MET IN THE FRICKIN DARK! UGH!

THE STRANGERS - Some people don't like this flick. I don't care who they are. This will teach you to never go to cabins in wooded areas. Who ever started doing that in the first place? Please, honey, lets go to the woods for some peace and quiet away from it all. Sure, wifey! Let's go where there's no one around for MILES and no decent cell service or perhaps a buried phone line to call for help from the hooded freaks! Ugh! I'm never going to a cabin.

Oh,yeah, newbie. Forget the Saw movies. They're dumb. Might wanna forget the Hostel pair as well. They hurt, but not as bad as the previous ones I mentioned. Rob Zombie has his moments (Devil's Rejects, mostly). Japanese horror is mostly stupid and non-sensical so don't bother. There's a remake here and there that's worthy but be careful which you choose. And I'm at work right now so I can't say much more. Lesson 1 over. We'll talk again.
post #25 of 81

movies to SCAR you and put hair en su culo!

Rule 1 newbie: horror today SCARS rather than scares. I think both are valuable but the scars hurt more. I'm not going to waste a list right now about horror's past and the great ones you should pick up. I don't have ten billion years and I know you probably don't want to run all over kingdom come looking for one thing that's 17 years old. You're a newbie and you will likely just go to Walmart, which is fine. I do both myself. Without further ado, movies that hurt!:

INSIDE - frenchy splatter movie that hurts. Two chicks fighting over a baby. Sounds simple. Believe me. IT HURTS. I've never felt so sad over the course of a movie and it got worse with the gutpunch ending. You will not laugh during this. You will be terrified and you might cry at the end. A terrifying experience.

WOLF CREEK - Australian horror flick. Salvation does not come with daylight. Screams never hurt so bad. DO NOT MAKE CROCODILE DUNDEE JOKES WITH PEOPLE YOU JUST MET IN THE FRICKIN DARK! UGH!

THE STRANGERS - Some people don't like this flick. I don't care who they are. This will teach you to never go to cabins in wooded areas. Who ever started doing that in the first place? Please, honey, lets go to the woods for some peace and quiet away from it all. Sure, wifey! Let's go where there's no one around for MILES and no decent cell service or perhaps a buried phone line to call for help from the hooded freaks! Ugh! I'm never going to a cabin.

Oh,yeah, newbie. Forget the Saw movies. They're dumb. Might wanna forget the Hostel pair as well. They hurt, but not as bad as the previous ones I mentioned. Rob Zombie has his moments (Devil's Rejects, mostly). Japanese horror is mostly stupid and non-sensical so don't bother. There's a remake here and there that's worthy but be careful which you choose. And I'm at work right now so I can't say much more. Lesson 1 over. We'll talk again.

Crap, you wanted 5. Sorry homey. Otra vez mas tarde.
post #26 of 81
And I've gone a posted the same thing twice on my first day. Bollocks!
post #27 of 81
AMERICAN WEREWOLF IN LONDON (werewolves)
LET THE RIGHT ONE IN (vampires)
THE SHINING (haunted house)
EVIL DEAD 2 (demons/spookablast)
PHANTASM (WTF wild card)

And then a triple feature of SciFi Monster horror:
THE MIST
THE THING
ALIEN

How "classic" are you willing to go? Universal Monster stuff?
post #28 of 81
What could the other 2 be from recent horrors? (Yeah, I'm back. Work aint that hard.) Um, avoid PG-13 horror like the plague. I don't think I've ever seen one that worked outside of maybe The Ring, and that itself was a remake, which harkens partially to my previous rule. PG-13 horror cuts off the balls of a horror flick (just ask Wes Craven) and while it may find a broader audience, it just doesn't work if you really like horror movies. The Hill Have Eyes remake is an exception to the remake rule though. That one hurts, despite a questionable ending. High Tension as well. Hail AJA!
post #29 of 81
Since many of the classics have already been mentioned I'll recommend THE DESCENT. Fuck, I love that movie.
post #30 of 81
He asked for 5. Why are there more than two posts in this thread?

Sorry. Happy hour!
post #31 of 81
Candyman
Candyman
Candyman
Ca
post #32 of 81
M, Les Diaboliques, Eyes Without a Face, Peeping Tom, The Birds, Repulsion, Rosemary's Baby, Carnival Of Souls, the Haunting, the Innocents, Black Christmas, Profundo Rosso, The Brood, Videodrome, The Company of Wolves, Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer, Near Dark, The Vanishing, Jacob's Ladder, Candyman, Chronos, A Tale of Two Sisters, Calvaire, Pan's Labyrinth, and The Host are missing from everyone's lists, to name but a few.

If you want a broad five that covers as much as possible, though:

The original (1931, not the older silent short) Frankenstein pretty much covers the early gothic stuff. Not the best of the period (that would go to M or Freaks), but probably the most representative of 30s/40s horror, as well as the themes picked up on by Hammer.
Either Psycho or Halloween (1960 and 1978 versions, respectively) is a good pick to cover the serial killer or slasher types. While neither invented that subgenre, they were the two that most popularised it, and certainly among the best.
Dawn of the Dead (the 1978 original, again) is the most influential and widely-referenced of the zombie movies. The older Night of the Living Dead could be substituted, but it's less effective as a pick for seeing how most films of the kind go.
While not the absolute best of its kind, the 1963 Haunting is pretty much the template for the ghost story in film. The dialogue hasn't aged amazingly well, but the atmosphere is as strong as ever.
Finally, Rosemary's Baby (1968, yet again) is by far the pinnacle of the horror films concerned with a more diabolical threat. Think of it as The Exorcist with a brain.

If you really want a post-1990 selection to start you off, try the following: Jacob's Ladder, Candyman, A Tale of Two Sisters, Shaun of the Dead, The Host
post #33 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
Also, what are your guys thoughts on some of the newer horror movies like Dagon, and Cthulu? I really enjoy HP Lovecraft's stories and the Call of Cthulu role-playing game gets regular rotation in our group...
Since no one touched on this that I saw..

I actually caught Dagon for the first time a couple weeks ago and really enjoyed it - it's obviously not a huge budget production or anything but I thought it did a solid job of capturing that sense of panic and dread at being overwhelmed by an entire town of strange creatures. Prefer it over that Necronomicon movie from years back, but not quite up there with In the Mouth of Madness.. or I'm just too big a Sam Neil fanboy. I don't want to overhype it, because it won't change your life or anything, but if you're a big H.P. fan then it's worth checking out for sure.

By Cthulhu do you mean the Call of Cthulhu film that was made by the Lovecraft Historical Society? I've heard nothing but great things about it but haven't had a chance to catch it myself yet..

Also, everyone who recommended Suspiria had the correct anwser. Along with the original Texas Chainsaw, Carpenter's The Thing, American Werewolf in London, and Cronenberg's the Fly.. you have an incredibly solid edumacation.
post #34 of 81
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trejo View Post
Since no one touched on this that I saw..

By Cthulhu do you mean the Call of Cthulhu film that was made by the Lovecraft Historical Society? I've heard nothing but great things about it but haven't had a chance to catch it myself yet..
Nah I meant this newer one that came out last year:

http://www.cthulhu-themovie.com/

Trailer doesn't look half bad. Not half bad at all...

ETA: maybe this is the same one you're speaking about??
post #35 of 81
Nope, the one I was thinking of is a silent, black and white film haha. Thanks for the link though, trailer looks intriguing. Hopefully they don't skimp out on tentacled fish-men and the like!
post #36 of 81
Apparantly the non-silent Cthulhu film was extraordinarily poor, unless memory fails me completely.
post #37 of 81
These have all been mentioned, but here's my essential horror films and why --

FRANKENSTEIN (1931) -- the true original Hollywood horror film.

THE EXORCIST -- the reigning champion of religious based horror and arguably the most effective horror movie of all time.

THE SHINING -- the greatest crystallization of the haunted house/ghost/descent into madness tropes.

HALLOWEEN -- when it comes right down to it, this is really the only essential slasher film.

NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD -- the modern zombie film begins here.

ALIEN -- I love THE THING and THE FLY but sci-fi horror as we know it was perfected and never quite matched by ALIEN.

THE TEXAS CHAINSAW MASSACRE -- humanity at it's most horrifying, the grandfather of the murderous redneck subgenre.

PSYCHO -- the first modern horror film, as important as FRANKENSTEIN in terms of sheer influence.

Sorry it's more than 5, but IMO those are the cornerstones of cinematic horror.
post #38 of 81
I agree with everything posted so far. I'd add the original john Carpenter version of The Fog, and the 1st installment in the Jeepers Creepers franchise. I'd also recommend the American version of The Ring (it didn't sound like Darkraven was recommending it, but despite its PG13 rating, a damned good effort). Scanners would be another good WTF wild card, to quote DM8. The Dead Zone and to a lesser extent Pet Sematary are (IMO, anyway) good King adaptations. The adaptations of Jack Ketchum's The Girl Next Door and The Lost, while maybe not strictly horror, are worth it, too. THEM! is IMO the best exemplar of the 50's B&W giant monster flick. Good for a change of pace. Either version of the Blob is a good choice, too. (but NOT Beware the Blob!, unless you're looking for a laugh). Oh, the beautiful horrible vistas that await you. Enjoy, friend Ludwig. Enjoy.
post #39 of 81
Oh, almost forgot to mention 28 Days Later. You might consider Cloverfield as well, but I'm not wholly decided on whether this was a great horror movie or just a good one myself.
post #40 of 81
Thread Starter 
Oddly enough, I have watched both 28 Days Later and Cloverfield. I also watched The Zombie Diaries and American Zombie recently too (don't know why, but my gaming group has a huge hard-on for Zombies).

I really enjoyed Cloverfield, but I didn't find it scary so much as just compelling. I never stopped wanting to know what was going to happen next.

A big thank you to everyone who's made suggestions so far! I will be picking two movies from the lists for this week. I have to watch 'em later at night, but they will be watched. All flesh must be eaten, naturally.
post #41 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Troy n View Post
Sorry Igggy but Cloverfield? While it's pretty good I wouldn't consider it required viewing. But hey, that's just me.
No, it's not just you. I'm kind of waffling on that one, too. I guess I give it points because it's the first "modern" horror movie to take the concept of a giant monster seriously, which is a subject I've had a thing for for years.
post #42 of 81
Cloverfield was a great movie-going experience, but is just an ok movie. God, those characters...
post #43 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg View Post
No, it's not just you. I'm kind of waffling on that one, too. I guess I give it points because it's the first "modern" horror movie to take the concept of a giant monster seriously, which is a subject I've had a thing for for years.
I think in its subgenre, its excellent. But I'm also a Monster whore.
post #44 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Night of the Living Dead
Bride Of Frankenstein
Psycho
The Texas Chain Saw Massacre (1974)
The Exorcist
Do we need any lists other than this one? Start here, then report back.
post #45 of 81
Start with The Watcher In The Woods. Then go right into Fulci!
post #46 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg View Post
No, it's not just you. I'm kind of waffling on that one, too. I guess I give it points because it's the first "modern" horror movie to take the concept of a giant monster seriously, which is a subject I've had a thing for for years.
Was The Host too small to count?
post #47 of 81
May I faithfully submit...

Ken Russell's 'The Devils' for your consideration?
The clip posted is fairly tame...but, the Oliver Reed factor should show ALL doubters the folly of trying to top this..
post #48 of 81
I'll admit I have a bit of a bias against old movies (and for a young thing like me, anything pre-80s is starting to look a little aged) so my list might not be for everyone - also this is off the top of my head, watch me miss something important.

.Rec (or Quarantine, the American remake, which is essentially the same film with a less pretty female lead). My personal favourite zombie movie, although 28 Days Later is pretty good as well.

Dead Birds
- the one film I like that I refuse to ever watch again. Although the plot could have been so much more the visuals and the atmosphere are amazing. This film was genuinely terrifying, I still sometimes get flashbacks to certain scenes when I close my eyes. If you want a haunted house movie this is the one to watch. If the ghosts in this don't work for you The Exorcism of Emily Rose is also worth a watch.

For Asian horror you want Tale of Two Sisters, much of the film is a fairly gentle family drama with a few creepy ghost scenes thrown in. The ending comes as a shock so try not to read spoilers first. This film scared me more than I could have imagined, there is not a single scene I could name that is frightening but the film as a whole creeps under your skin. My second choice for Asian horror (which almost made the list) is Acacia which not all that many people seem to like but I have so much love for. The screwed up family relationships are what makes it, much like Tale of Two Sisters.

In the category of 'remakes that are actually better than the original' pretty much on it's own is The Ring. I would skip the dreary Japanese original, although some prefer it. The remake has an overload of pretty visuals with the same compelling plot as the original. Oh, and, Naomi Watts. Your eye candy needs? Met. For the best effect watch with a group of female teenage beauty students, and then phone them once they're in bed for endless entertainment and mass hysteria.

I feel I should put some torture porn in here, all the cool kids are watching it these days, and it's a genre I quite like, but there's nothing that stands out. So I'll finish my list with The Brood, because it's really, really weird. It manages to be subtly creepy in parts and in your face disgusting in others, and features the only scene I know of in a horror movie to have shocked my horror-movie-loving boyfriend.

There's lots of movies I thought about but didn't mention here. If you really want to see what the torture porn genre is up to you could do worse than Saw II and III, the rest of the series is complete worthless shit but II had a decent concept and III was just really really nasty. If you want to investigate the Horror Musical genre then take a look at Sweeney Todd and Repo! The Genetic Opera, if you want to see Arielle Kebbel as a blonde running around in her panties (oh, the film is quite good as well) grab a copy of Reeker, the Descent is brilliant for the first half but becomes a little generic. Oh, and if you prefer older horror I managed to really enjoy Susperia, Carnival of Souls, Nightmare on Elm Street, Halloween and the Phantom of the Opera (1925 version).

Feel free to shoot me if I forgot anything really really awesome, it's been a long day.
post #49 of 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleo View Post
.Rec (or Quarantine, the American remake, which is essentially the same film with a less pretty female lead).
Everyone 'round these parts recommends I should just watch .Rec

That Quarantine is basically the same movie. But with a slicker budget and recognizable actors, which makes it more 'polished' and less scary. I'm worried because that's what they said about Ringu and Open Your Eyes. Except that I prefer the remakes of those movies, personally... But I saw the remakes first. So I'm conflicted as to what approach to take when it comes to .Rec

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleo View Post

Dead Birds
- the one film I like that I refuse to ever watch again. Although the plot could have been so much more the visuals and the atmosphere are amazing. This film was genuinely terrifying, I still sometimes get flashbacks to certain scenes when I close my eyes.
I was very pleasantly surprised by Dead Birds. It has a cool Twilight Zone plot and some effective scares throughout. The presence of Mark Boone Junior is always welcome in a genre picture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleo View Post
In the category of 'remakes that are actually better than the original' pretty much on it's own is The Ring. I would skip the dreary Japanese original, although some prefer it. The remake has an overload of pretty visuals with the same compelling plot as the original. Oh, and, Naomi Watts. Your eye candy needs? Met.
I basically feel the same way. I was surprised when I saw this in theaters and it actually scared me silly. ... Then I rented the original to see what all the fuss was about and found it to be boring and ineffective. I didn't like the way they built the plot and couldn't connect with the 'apocalyptic' volcano bullshit. And none of the scares worked... But, I wonder if maybe the original wouldn't have worked a little more had I not already seen the remake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleo View Post
Repo! The Genetic Opera, if you want to see Arielle Kebbel as a blonde running around in her panties (oh, the film is quite good as well)
Saw a trailer for this. Intriguing... I may as well confess that I'm a Sarah Brightman fan, ok? Fine. Is this really worth watching? It looks visually arresting. But is the music good? Or is it Nu Metal crap?
post #50 of 81
[QUOTE=Erix;2583111]Everyone 'round these parts recommends I should just watch .Rec

REC is the better film. It has a scarier ending -- which is sort of hard to explain because both films have basically the same ending. I am not one of those purists who always prefers the original foreign versions (I like THE RING more than RINGU, for instance) so trust me on this.
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