Is Obama an atheist? - Page 2

Well, if you're talking about statements made in the thread that's one thing, but you specifically pointed me and werewolf girl out. I wanted to know how I was being a hypocrite, and how I was making a generalization, when I made a point to not say "all Christians".

I do because I fell I have to do cleanup work after them.

To that point, it reminds me of my best friend in 10th grade. He was an atheist, came from a family that was from the "Christian Science" Church I believe. We would rarely talk about religion, but the topic will be brought up once in a while. We had a super interesting conversation on the resurrection of Christ. Different point of views, but no problem. Nobody got upset and he made some great point, I think I made some too.

I never saw me trying to really convince him of anything. If he had asked me what I thought about my faith, I would have told him what I felt honestly. Just like I would expect him to do so if I wanted to know more about being an atheist.

Anyways, we had to interact with this other guy, the son of a pastor. He was horrible. He would brag to us about stealing, and I would tell him ... hey don't you think you should not do that and he would say "all sins are the same", don't you sin at all? "Ah you Catholics and your different categories of sins".

Then he would start insulting my friend because he was an atheist. Just plain bullying him, and yes this is the type of person that really gets me upset. I remember trying to point out what a hypocrite he was and how in the world he expect anybody to believe as he does with his behavior, but he didn't care at all. He was saved, and nothing he did mattered.

To me, my atheist friend was more in line with what God wants for us than the son of this pastor. That doesn't mean I don't believe in faith, and my creed, but at the end of the day my belief system is not a dumb, strict cold algorithm. This gets into faith vs works (which is faith & works) theological issue that really doesn't belong in this forum anyways, but you get the idea.

So yes, there's a lot of people out there that give us a bad name. And there are lots of things in our belief systems that need to change and everything, but on the other hand the community of people who have a belief in God is very diverse, and you have to acknowledge that. Just like I have to be careful not to generalize people who have different beliefs than I do, and to that I've tried to learn as much as possible about their spiritual traditions and culture.

Interestingly enough, I feel the same way as Cap from the non-believer side.

If the most obnoxious outspoken Christians tend to suffer from a dangerous surplus of belief in their own righteousness, the most obnoxious outspoken atheists tend to suffer from a dangerous surplus of belief in their own intelligence.

I regret that I sometimes come off as some guilt-ridden atheist who truly believes that the religious are unfairly persecuted in this country (which, of course, is seldom the case), because that's not the case. I'm an atheist because I'm an atheist (specifically a soft atheist/agnostic), and I'm neither ashamed nor proud of it - I'm proud of accomplishment, not belief. So my problem is primarily an intellectual one - the terms with which religious issues are discussed on this board should give anyone with a basic appreciation for nuance and tolerance a fucking aneurysm.

There's value in studying what you don't believe in, and not simply in that you gain the ability to out-debate those who do believe in it. I've learned to appreciate that there's no single list of arguments that can discount something as vast and multifaceted as religious belief. When you actually take a look at the history of belief and different ways of practice, it's staggering. And, as an atheist faced with the idea that I'm never going to learn about it all and devise counter-arguments (not for the sake of being a dick, mind you, but to articulate exactly what it is I do and don't believe), I ultimately have to rely somewhat on intuition. Religious belief doesn't work for me (certainly not in any literal sense, but also not entirely in any figurative sense that I've yet found), but I have no idea how it works for anyone else.

The majority of religious people don't give a shit how you live your life, and this should be plainly obvious. They're not trying to push creationism in all public schools. If they were, there would be creationism in all public schools, because they vastly outnumber us nonbelievers. I get why we're hung up on a minority of believers who have no qualms about politicizing their religious beliefs (especially given the base of the previous administration); but you're doing a disservice to the very Reason that supposedly drives many of you to atheism by letting your feelings on this minority color your perspective on all believers.

So how about that Obama guy? I heard he hasn't been to church in months!

I'm sorry if I used an actual statistical correlation to help justify a point I was making. I will never make a generalization again, even an empirically verified one. I'm so ashamed.

(aside: I've said it before, and I'll say it again, for many, many religious folk, not even necessarily the ones who try to push their beliefs on others, their belief system colors their perception of the world, how it works, and their place in it in irresponsible ways. So yes, I get frustrated. However, whatever sense of superiority you interpret in my posts, DaveB, is mistaken. Even if I am a dick sometimes.)

None that you know about.

Judd, people let many different things color their perception of the world. As someone who goes to church and believes in God, of course that colors my perception. Non-believers have things that color their perception as well, things like celebrity worship(believers do this as well), money, looks. Hell just about anything under the sun helps mold one's perception.

I just think you should understand that not every believer is staging protests of gay pride parade's and going door to door telling people how they're going to burn in hell unless they join the church. Some of us acknowledge and respect that laws are to be made and enforced outside of religious beliefs and we're ok with that. Some of us would love that others believed as well but feel that shoving it down their throats is just not the best way to go about it.

Am I perfect as a Christian? Of course not, but I'm working on being a better person/Christian every day. Do I expect everyone to respect that? Of course not, I know it's going to "color the perception" of some towards me. However, I feel strongly that my belief's have made me a much better person than I used to be.

Anecdotal for sure but I'm way less of an asshole than I was before I began going to church and I've learned to be at peace with a lot of things that used to set me off. Don't get me wrong, I still flip out over little things (as anyone who has played CoD4 with me will attest) but again, I'm a work in progress.

I know that none of what I have said will convince anyone of anything, but it's damn disheartening to see so many people that I think a great deal of on this site basically lump me in with those idiots protesting I referred to earlier.

Sorry if I'm derailing.

Yeah, they made some smart social changes, but from a theological standpoint the Protestant reformation pretty much shit the bed and gave birth to the psychologically-maladjusted beast we have today rampaging through the Bible Belt.

What exactly is the Protestant reformation responsible for in this scenario?

Obama's religious, but unlike Bush, he refuses to whore his beliefs in order to achieve his legislative agenda. As an athiest, I respect his integrity concerning such matters.

Momma Grinch sounds like an extremely bitter far right Republican Conservative who still refuses to accept the fact that she now has a black man (A rational, intelligent adult) for a president, instead of an ignorant man-child who shamelessly panders to her beliefs. Now she's terrified that Mr. Hussein is dragging her family to hell. To be fair & balanced... FNC must be the alarmist fire that's ensuring her well fed ass remains in a state of constant chafe.

The Protestant reformation also gave us the Episcopal church (first gay bishop) and the United Church of Christ (passed a 2005 resolution in support of equal marriage rights for everyone).

These are good things, and they're positive social changes brought about by the reformation because churches could make decisions for themselves. The problem comes from the theology, with things like predestination, where they state mankind has no control over his destiny and can do the most amoral things he wishes and he could still go to heaven simply because they "accept" Jesus whereas others haven't as specified, or even worse, concepts like justification by faith, which basically means you could be friggin' Hitler but so long as you're Christian (and Protestant Christian only!) you're in the clear, whereas pious individuals of other religions are still hell-bound infidels who aren't worth an iota.

This has led in American mega-church culture to some very warped concepts of ethics and morality, which one of the reasons we have so much trouble with vulgarly self-superior hypocrites like the jerkoff Cap mentioned earlier. When it comes to social reforms the reformation had some great ideas, but when it comes to theological teachings it, as previously stated, shits that bed.