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Obama picks Sotomayor for SC

post #1 of 202
Thread Starter 
Brilliant or stupid move?

There's been a whispering campaign going on for months, and Fox News have been attacking her since March. Expect the GOP talking points for the rest of the week on that network.

On the other hand, since the GOP have preemptively announced their desire to block any nominee, they now have to take this fight public in order not to look like a bunch of pussies. But if they succeed in blocking Sotomayor, they may lose the Hispanic vote for good.
post #2 of 202
And the conservative meltdown has already begun. The comments on the article on our local paper's website run the gamut from "Get ready for amnesty for illegal aliens" to "so long, white males, been nice knowing you!" As if one voice on the Supreme Court can accomplish all that.
post #3 of 202
I was watching her speech on Fox News. She'd barely finished speaking before they were lobbing complaints against her. This from the party that gave us Harriet Miers.
post #4 of 202
Thread Starter 
This guy nails it. the RNC meme is "liberal Harriet Miers"

From Scotusblog:

The White House will announce a Supreme Court nominee at 10 a.m. The Senate Judiciary Committee will likely hold hearings in the third week of July, permitting written committee questions the following week and a floor vote before Congress leaves for its summer recess on the weekend of August 8. Absent the discovery of an ethical transgression, the Democratic majority on the Senate guarantees confirmation, so the new Justice will take her seat when the Court opens its 2009 Term on October 5.

Well before the hearings and votes, the immediate struggle will be to define both the nominee and the President (in light of his selection). In several prior posts, we have summarized Sonia Sotomayor’s principal opinions. Here, I discuss the lines of attack that likely will be directed at her if she is nominated by the President this morning.

The attacks are inevitable and tremendously regrettable, just as they were for Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Alito. A cottage industry – literally an industry, given the sums of money raised and spent – now exists in which the far left and right either brutalize or lionize the President’s nominees. Because the absence of controversy means bankruptcy, it has to be invented by both sides, whatever the cost to the nominee personally and to the integrity of the judiciary nationally.

That is not to say that there aren’t legitimate – in fact, critical – debates over issues like judicial philosophy and the proper way to interpret the Constitution that can and should be front and center in a Supreme Court confirmation hearing. But the most extreme interest groups and ideologues are transparently uninterested in that reasoned debate as they rush to caricature the nominee and the opposing viewpoint.

Because proponents’ and opponents’ claims about nominees are provided for public consumption through the mass media, they involve bumper sticker messages; there is not much nuance. Almost always, they collapse into assertions of ideological extremism, as when some on the left attempted to portray John Roberts as a (secret) ideologue and single-minded tool of the government and corporations against individuals.

The public reaction to Roberts’ confirmation illustrates that Americans thankfully still think for themselves and that the White House’s most effective tool may be the nominee herself. But beyond a short statement at the announcement and fleeting remarks during courtesy visits to Senators, the nominee’s appearance at actual hearings won’t come for six weeks, which could be too late to repair her image if a sustained assault from the right actually took hold in the meantime. Controlling the narrative in the short-term will be essential.

I discuss below the four most probable lines of attack that committed ideologues are likely to advance, but to my mind basic political considerations make it very unlikely that mainstream Republican politicians will vocally join the criticism. The view of some that the nomination of Sotomayor will require the President to invest additional political capital seems completely wrong to me. Absent of course some ethical problem, the President simply has the votes.

Even more important, Republicans cannot afford to find themselves in the position of implicitly opposing Judge Sotomayor. To Hispanics, the nomination would be an absolutely historic landmark. It really is impossible to overstate its significance. The achievement of a lifetime appointment at the absolute highest levels of the government is a profound event for that community, which in turn is a vital electoral group now and in the future.

Equally significant for not only Hispanics but all Americans, Sotomayor has an extraordinarily compelling personal narrative. She grew up in a housing project, losing her father as an adolescent, raised (with her brother) by her mother, who worked as a nurse. She got herself to Princeton, graduating as one of the top two people in her class, then went to Yale Law. Almost all of her career has been in public service–as a prosecutor, trial judge, and now appellate judge. She has almost no money to her name.

For Republican Senators to come after Judge Sotomayor is not only hopeless when it comes to confirmation (something that did not deter Democrats in their attacks on Roberts and Alito) but a strategy that risks exacting a very significant political cost among Hispanics and independent voters generally, assuming that the attacks aren’t backed up with considerable substance.

Objectively, her qualifications are overwhelming from the perspective of ordinary Americans. She has been a prosecutor, private litigator, trial judge, and appellate judge. No one currently on the Court has that complete package of experience.

The most likely dynamic by far is the one that played out for Democrats with respect to Chief Justice Roberts. Democratic senators, recognizing the inevitable confirmation of a qualified and popular nominee, decided to hold their fire and instead direct their attacks to President Bush’s second nominee. Justice Alito was the collateral damage to that strategy. Here, with Justice Stevens’s retirement inevitable in the next few years, Republican senators are very likely to hold off conservative interest groups with promises to sharply examine President Obama’s second (potentially white male) nominee.

Overall, the White House’s biggest task is simply demonstrating that Judge Sotomayor is the most qualified candidate, not a choice based on her gender and ethnicity. The public wants to know that her greatness as a Justice is informed by her personal history and her diversity, not that it is defined by those characteristics. For that reason, the focus on “empathy” — rather than the “wisdom” or “good sense” of the nominee in light of her experience — plays out poorly, in my opinion.

Opponents’ first claim – likely stated obliquely and only on background – will be that Judge Sotomayor is not smart enough for the job. This is a critical ground for the White House to capture. The public expects Supreme Court Justices to be brilliant. Harriet Miers was painted (frequently, by conservatives) as not up to the job. The same claim (absurd to anyone who has talked with him) is still made by the left about Clarence Thomas. By contrast, John Roberts was described as brilliant and Sam Alito as exceptionally smart.

The objective evidence is that Sotomayor is in fact extremely intelligent. Graduating at the top of the class at Princeton is a signal accomplishment. Her opinions are thorough, well-reasoned, and clearly written. Nothing suggests she isn’t the match of the other Justices.

The second claim – and this one will be front and center – will be the classic resort to ideology: that Judge Sotomayor is a liberal ideologue and “judicial activist.” (Put to the side the emptiness of the labels – i.e., that one person’s principle (e.g., a decision invalidating state laws authorizing punitive damages) is another’s “activism.”) There is no question that Sonia Sotomayor would be on the left of this Supreme Court, just not the radical left. Our surveys of her opinions put her in essentially the same ideological position as Justice Souter. In the ideological cases where her rulings have been reviewed by the Supreme Court (for example, Malesko and the pending Ricci case), her views have aligned with the left of the current Court.

The third claim – related to the second – will be that Judge Sotomayor is unprincipled or dismissive of positions with which she disagrees. The three pieces of evidence initially cited for that proposition will be (i) the disposition of the Ricci case (in which a panel on which Sotomayor sat affirmed the dismissal of white firefighters’ claims in a very short and initially unpublished opinion), (ii) a panel appearance in which she acknowledged that appellate judges effectively make policy, and (iii) a speech in which she talked about the role of her gender and ethnicity in her decision making.

These reeds are too thin for that characterization to take hold. The public neither understands nor cares about the publication practices of the courts of appeals. It also is easily able to accept a judge’s recognition of the lawmaking effects of her decisions and the influences of her background. There just isn’t any remotely persuasive evidence that Judge Sotomayor acts lawlessly or anything of the sort.

Finally, critics will characterize her as gruff and impersonable, relying on excerpts from oral arguments and anonymous criticisms in the Almanac of the Federal Judiciary. Judge Sotomayor’s personal remarks will resolve this question for the public, to the extent it cares at all. But there isn’t any reason to believe that she is anything other than a tough questioner. My impression from her questioning at oral arguments is that it is similar to the Chief Justice, Justice Scalia, and (in cases in which he was particularly engaged) Justice Souter.

All in all, if Judge Sotomayor is nominated in a few hours, her easy confirmation seems assured.
post #5 of 202
post #6 of 202
When I first read the title I was drinking coffee and I almost did a spit-take. Because this Sotomayor was the first one that came to my mind.
post #7 of 202
Sotomayor is 54 and will be 55 when she is confirmed.

She is younger than Alito but a year older than Roberts. Good that Obama is thinking about age. There is finally a liberal on the court younger than Thomas.
post #8 of 202

Judge Sonia Sotomayor is female, Hispanic, liberal, and mediocre

National Review ^ on the nominee

More at the National Review Website
post #9 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
When I first read the title I was drinking coffee and I almost did a spit-take. Because this Sotomayor was the first one that came to my mind.
you so crazy man! so crazy!

GOP will attack Sotomayor and they will still lose. The only thing the GOP has right now is what the Obama Admin. and the weak Congressional Dems give them. They can't affect anything unless the Dems give in... which is always possible, but not on this.
post #10 of 202
This is the first time I recall the usual Republican commentators decrying racism. Of course, they've no idea what the fuck they're talking about - and this racism they suspect concerns white people, because those like Limbaugh and Beck are so inbred they believe there are "so few racists" out there; and I've yet to hear them acknowledge it exists from a white person - indicating that somebody like Sotomayor would be a useful justice, as it seems some of those white in power are entirely ignorant, which is what I wouldn't be surprised she wishes she could have said. Hell, the most racism I experience is in the summer from my parents - "You look pale and sick! Why don't you tan?" Though there was that one time somebody threatened me as a "fucking German" and I thought I'd be beat, but such an occasion is extremely bloody rare (and well, actually pretty damn amusing because I was with people at the time who aren't white). Fuck the neo-cons.
post #11 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
This is the first time I recall the usual Republican commentators decrying racism. Of course, they've no idea what the fuck they're talking about - and this racism they suspect concerns white people, because those like Limbaugh and Beck are so inbred they believe there are "so few racists" out there; and I've yet to hear them acknowledge it exists from a white person - indicating that somebody like Sotomayor would be a useful justice, as it seems some of those white in power are entirely ignorant, which is what I wouldn't be surprised she wishes she could have said. Hell, the most racism I experience is in the summer from my parents - "You look pale and sick! Why don't you tan?" Though there was that one time somebody threatened me as a "fucking German" and I thought I'd be beat, but such an occasion is extremely bloody rare. Fuck the neo-cons.
I'm one of those people who believes that reverse discrimination is a real thing. I just don't think it should be thrown around in every situation because it's a rare occurrence. The idea that Sotomayor is a racist is a pretty preposterous notion.
post #12 of 202
Well, to be honest, I doubt our society has progressed enough to declare anyone to not be racist - really, it's levels of racism, ranging from "Eh, so he has a fetish for blondes" to "Whoa, holy shit, that's really fucking racist." Hell, my mp3 player is racist. It categorizes TV on the Radio as rap/hip hop. I've heard murmurs that Cuba has progressed much further in this regard, however.

Reverse-racism...something tells me this could lead into an affirmative action debate. But it exists, yes, o'course.
post #13 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
I've heard murmurs that Cuba has progressed much further in this regard, however.
You must have heard this from guilt ridden Canadian or European Cuban tourists, buying that sort of propaganda so they feel better.

http://www.miamiherald.com/multimedi...rt4/index.html

Cuba is likely more 65% or more black, the figure could still be higher. Obviously, in there hasn't been a black president or many high level members of the communist party when they are the majority group in the country. I think that pretty much says it all.

Quote:
But Castro's own Communist Party and government fall short on the race front. Only four recognizably black faces sit on the party's 21- member Political Bureau, and only two sit on the government's top body, the 39- member Council of Minis- ters.

The highest-ranking black in Cuba is Esteban Lazo, a former party chief in the provinces of Havana and Santiago de Cuba. Lazo was tapped by Castro when he took ill last summer, along with brother Raúl Castro and four others, to help rule Cuba in his absence.

And yet, black faces populate Cuba's political prisons. Some of the nation's best known dissidents are black. They include independent librarian Omar Pernét Hernández, mason Orlando Zapata Tamayo and physician Oscar Elias Biscét. The latter was sentenced to 27 years for, among other things, organizing a seminar on Martin Luther King's non--violent forms of protest.

"Race is the biggest social issue facing Cuba," said Enrique Patterson, a Cuban-born Miami author who writes extensively about race, and calls this nation's race problem a "social bomb."

"If this problem isn't addressed, Cuba will not be governable in the future."
post #14 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreary louse View Post
Though there was that one time somebody threatened me as a "fucking German" and I thought I'd be beat, but such an occasion is extremely bloody rare (and well, actually pretty damn amusing because I was with people at the time who aren't white).
Well, Jesus! When (and where!) the hell was that? Seriously.

post #15 of 202
In downtown Winnipeg last year. I imagined the white guy was a dumb, hardcore self-righteous Liberal, who in his head hates germans for being racists.

Thanks for the info, ElCapitan.
post #16 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
You must have heard this from guilt ridden Canadian or European Cuban tourists, buying that sort of propaganda so they feel better.
And I suppose that members of Miami's Cuban community are well known for their objectivity regarding Cuba's regime. No agenda there.
post #17 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
And I suppose that members of Miami's Cuban community are well known for their objectivity regarding Cuba's regime. No agenda there.
What does that mean?

Do you know any high level government officials in Cuba who happen to be black? I'm sorry but I think before declaring racial harmony you would expect your government (even a repressive one) to have more representation of the majority ethnic group.

The brother Castro, Alarcon, Lage and Roque (now mysteriously fired by the Castros), all white. As the article indicates, the official party is not well represented.

BTW that article contains quotes from Mark Sawyer (UCLA) and even another one from Esteban Morales Dominguez (University of Havana) who lives in Cuba and is not even a dissident.

As for opinions from the exile community in Miami, you do know that they're Cuban too right? People have this funny image that they are rich Batista refugees that escaped Cuba and are whining about their riches ... a kind of laughable caricature that is believed by people who don't know any better.

So regarding the Miami Herald article, yeah, I believed is sourced much better than anything published in Granma.
post #18 of 202
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=99420

Quote:
As President Obama's Supreme Court nominee comes under heavy fire for allegedly being a "racist," Judge Sonia Sotomayor is listed as a member of the National Council of La Raza, a group that's promoted driver's licenses for illegal aliens, amnesty programs, and no immigration law enforcement by local and state police.

According the American Bar Association, Sotomayor is a member of the NCLR, which bills itself as the largest national Hispanic civil rights and advocacy organization in the U.S.

Meaning "the Race," La Raza also has connections to groups that advocate the separation of several southwestern states from the rest of America.

Over the past two days, Sotomayor has been heavily criticized for her racially charged statement: "I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."

The remark was actually made during a 2001 speech at the University of California's Berkeley School of Law. The lecture was published the following year in the Berkeley La Raza Law Journal.

Could Mexico retake the southwestern United States? Get the DVD that says the invasion is already happening!
post #19 of 202
Hahahaha!

http://www.nclr.org/content/faqs/detail/39736/

Quote:
What does the term “La Raza” mean?

The term “La Raza” has its origins in early 20th century Latin American literature and translates into English most closely as “the people,” or, according to some scholars, “the Hispanic people of the New World.” The term was coined by Mexican scholar José Vasconcelos to reflect the fact that the people of Latin America are a mixture of many of the world’s races, cultures, and religions. Some people have mistranslated “La Raza” to mean “The Race,” implying that it is a term meant to exclude others. In fact, the full term coined by Vasconcelos, “La Raza Cósmica,” meaning the “cosmic people,” was developed to reflect not purity but the mixture inherent in the Hispanic people. This is an inclusive concept, meaning that Hispanics share with all other peoples of the world a common heritage and destiny.
I also like the implication that there is some type of popular support among Hispanics for a "reconquista", specially from a person whose both parents come from freaking Puerto Rico out of all places!
post #20 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
I trust any news source whose first link in their directory is to their store.
post #21 of 202
Give him some credit though, at least he didn't quote newsmax. Remember, even in Hell not all levels are equal.
post #22 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.p...w&pageId=99420
Quote:
Over the past two days, Sotomayor has been heavily criticized for her racially charged statement: "I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."
Have we forgotten how to read contextually, or have we just gotten so smug in our ignorance that we can only interpret on a soundbyte level?

I realize it actually takes time and effort to read through an entire speech, but if you don't take that time, you might as well shut the fuck up, because your input isn't even worthless, but damaging to the overall level of discourse.

She's making a point about the unavoidability and application of subjectivity in deciding court cases. She's also focusing quite specifically on cases of racial and sexual discrimination, issues with which a "wise Latina woman" will have more insight on than a white male.

Here are some of the words surrounding this supposedly "racist" statement.

Quote:
In our private conversations, Judge Cedarbaum has pointed out to me that seminal decisions in race and sex discrimination cases have come from Supreme Courts composed exclusively of white males. I agree that this is significant but I also choose to emphasize that the people who argued those cases before the Supreme Court which changed the legal landscape ultimately were largely people of color and women. I recall that Justice Thurgood Marshall, Judge Connie Baker Motley, the first black woman appointed to the federal bench, and others of the NAACP argued Brown v. Board of Education. Similarly, Justice Ginsburg, with other women attorneys, was instrumental in advocating and convincing the Court that equality of work required equality in terms and conditions of employment.

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.

However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage.

I also hope that by raising the question today of what difference having more Latinos and Latinas on the bench will make will start your own evaluation. For people of color and women lawyers, what does and should being an ethnic minority mean in your lawyering? For men lawyers, what areas in your experiences and attitudes do you need to work on to make you capable of reaching those great moments of enlightenment which other men in different circumstances have been able to reach. For all of us, how do change the facts that in every task force study of gender and race bias in the courts, women and people of color, lawyers and judges alike, report in significantly higher percentages than white men that their gender and race has shaped their careers, from hiring, retention to promotion and that a statistically significant number of women and minority lawyers and judges, both alike, have experienced bias in the courtroom?

Each day on the bench I learn something new about the judicial process and about being a professional Latina woman in a world that sometimes looks at me with suspicion. I am reminded each day that I render decisions that affect people concretely and that I owe them constant and complete vigilance in checking my assumptions, presumptions and perspectives and ensuring that to the extent that my limited abilities and capabilities permit me, that I reevaluate them and change as circumstances and cases before me requires. I can and do aspire to be greater than the sum total of my experiences but I accept my limitations. I willingly accept that we who judge must not deny the differences resulting from experience and heritage but attempt, as the Supreme Court suggests, continuously to judge when those opinions, sympathies and prejudices are appropriate.

There is always a danger embedded in relative morality, but since judging is a series of choices that we must make, that I am forced to make, I hope that I can make them by informing myself on the questions I must not avoid asking and continuously pondering. We, I mean all of us in this room, must continue individually and in voices united in organizations that have supported this conference, to think about these questions and to figure out how we go about creating the opportunity for there to be more women and people of color on the bench so we can finally have statistically significant numbers to measure the differences we will and are making.
And here's the whole speech.
post #23 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Have we forgotten how to read contextually, or have we just gotten so smug in our ignorance that we can only interpret on a soundbyte level?

I'm pretty sure you've been around these last eight years, right? Al Gore, internet, etc.?

Yeah, another political blog I frequent was being trolled with people cutting and pasting that quote and nothing else, and braying about how "if a white politician had said that you libs would be going crazy!". It's just another blastfax sent out to the True Believers about how non-white people are the real racists.
post #24 of 202
One forum I read keeps trotting out "She ruled against white firefighters because black ones failed the test!!" without having any basic understanding of the case whatsoever.
post #25 of 202
When we take over the country and rejoin Mexico, I'll make sure you guys (Jacob and DaveB) are not executed but humanely sent away to the nearest Gulag.

Edit: OK, maybe Richard too.
post #26 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
When we take over the country and rejoin Mexico, I'll make sure you guys (Jacob and DaveB) are not executed but humanely sent away to the nearest Gulag.

Edit: OK, maybe Richard too.
I, for one, welcome our new Spanish-speaking overlords. Man, was I banking on the wrong team when I took French in high school.
post #27 of 202
Hey, I was in the Spanish Honor Society in high school, I'm La Raza by proxy.
post #28 of 202
""Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we've just lost the picture, but what we've seen speaks for itself. The United States Supreme Court has apparently been taken over -- 'conquered' if you will -- by a master race of giant space latinos. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive earth men or merely enslave them. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the latinos will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new latino overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted message board personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves."


EDIT: Dammit DaveB!
post #29 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Wasn't Palin's hubby part of a group who's leader wanted to make Alaska it's own country?

Also... do you find any of this even viable?

And... why do you have so much unreason in you? It really seems like a lot of simple concepts really get past you. Like... back off and take a time out. You need to really get your shit straight.
post #30 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
I, for one, welcome our new Spanish-speaking overlords. Man, was I banking on the wrong team when I took French in high school.
What's particularly upsetting is that you would do so after all our efforts to make Cinco de Mayo a national holiday. It's very frustrating to impose a holiday of this kind so then you guys can go on and ignore it's historical significance.

*sigh*!!!

Snaieke have you seen the movie Apocalypto? Get ready.
post #31 of 202
I absolutely adore the last line Snaike included in the quote. That is so precious.
post #32 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Worldnet is a right-wing propanganda machine. They have the credibility of a serial liar. Which is why Snaike likes 'em, I'd imagine.

The out-of-context quote being paraded as 'racist' is laughable, as is the transparent attempt to paint the whole of a legal rights organization as a front for manufacturing IDs for illegal immigrants. I am honestly amazed by the continued practice of the Republican party's distribution of sub-moronic memes without basis in fact. It's as if they just don't care about being known as blatant, unrepentant bullshitters.

ETA: My 'favorite' part of Snaike's article isn't even in the article - it's an embedded advertisement for a film I'm tempted to order RIGHT NOW:

Quote:
Could Mexico retake the southwestern United States? Get the DVD that says the invasion is already happening!
Aye, Dios mio!
post #33 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Custer View Post
Could Mexico retake the southwestern United States? Get the DVD that says the invasion is already happening!
But it's true! I only passed like three white people this morning during my 2.5-mile walk to work!

And somehow I managed to get roped into an argument with some dolt about Sotomayor being a racist. I just need to stop responding to people.
post #34 of 202
For those trying to get a handle on Ricci, this article is fantastic.

I quote the relevant portion:

Quote:
New Haven's decision may sound like blatant racial favoritism, but in fact the city rejected the firefighter exam because the test violated Title VII, the federal civil rights law that prevents discrimination in employment. Title VII requires employers to consider the racial impact of their hiring and promotion procedures in order to prevent discrimination that's inadvertent as well as intentional. Ricci's claim is that the city's effort to comply with Title VII is itself race discrimination (under the 14th Amendment to the Constitution and under Title VII itself).
At least in that case, Sotomayor was far from "activist." She, in fact, applied clear precedent in the Second Circuit. She, ahem, followed the law, as decided by courts before and as written by the duly elected representatives of the people, the Congress of the United States.

But, yeah, sure, she's out of control! Those judges and their law-abiding ways!
post #35 of 202
Thanks for that, I was just about to ask if anyone had any decent resources about that case. The only argument I can see a conservative proposing is that they don't like the "quota system", and then of course they'll inevitably bring up Affirmative Action and derail any constructive discussion, but whatevs.
post #36 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Thanks for that, I was just about to ask if anyone had any decent resources about that case. The only argument I can see a conservative proposing is that they don't like the "quota system", and then of course they'll inevitably bring up Affirmative Action and derail any constructive discussion, but whatevs.
I understand Sotomayor's legal reasoning, and that reasoning is arguably sound from a pure-law standpoint. Lithwick's article makes that clear. I also understand that it wasn't simply the test itself that's the problem, and that the city's rules on promotion also factored in. Yet, despite knowing this, I empathize with Ricci's complaint. Ricci worked to prepare for that exam and expected to be rewarded for that work. Instead, from his perspective, he's been told that the work didn't matter, and that it isn't 'fair' to promote him. That does not appear to be a merit-based system of promotion.

I think I'd be pretty ticked if that were me in that situation, regardless of race.
post #37 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Custer View Post
Yet, despite knowing this, I empathize with Ricci's complaint. Ricci worked to prepare for that exam and expected to be rewarded for that work. Instead, from his perspective, he's been told that the work didn't matter, and that it isn't 'fair' to promote him. That does not appear to be a merit-based system of promotion.

I think I'd be pretty ticked if that were me in that situation, regardless of race.
Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that, I can empathize with his stance on the situation too. I'm just sort of wading into all this right now after seeing all the general screeching about Sotomayor and then hearing someone who I know to be a racist squawking about how she's a racist, so now I'm trying to do the crash-course version of Sotomayor 101 so that this fucking guy can eat crow and go away again.
post #38 of 202
I think you make a fair point, Jesse, but that's not Sotomayor's fault. Ricci should take it up with Congress. Title VII is a federal statute that was enacted almost 50 years ago.

More to the point, however, why does a firefighter need to pass a written exam? I fail to see the relationship between writing an essay and putting out fires. The whole point of Title VII law is to force employers to narrowly tailor exams that test qualifications, such that factors that have traditionally disadvantaged minorities (in this case, access to quality education) don't come into play when they're not necessary to perform the job as needed.

The most famous example, another firefighter case, was a test that required firefighters to lift a certain amount of weight in order to be eligible to become a firefighter. Women, on the whole, were unable to lift that much weight because they generally don't have as much upper body strength as men. The test was ruled to have a disparate impact on women, and the employer couldn't explain the relationship between lifting that much weight and the qualifications for the job. Other tests included height restrictions to become a prison guard (shorter than 6'2" need not apply, for example). Same result, as women tend to be shorter than men. The prison, however, couldn't explain what being tall had to do with being a good guard.

It's not about intentional discrimination in Ricci. The test unintentionally discriminated against minorities because it took into account factors that were irrelevant to the performance of the job. Instead of waiting to be sued by the minority firefighters under Title VII (and winning, clearly), New Haven decided to scrap the test.

Pardon my ignorance if the relationship between the two is self-evident.
post #39 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
More to the point, however, why does a firefighter need to pass a written exam? I fail to see the relationship between writing an essay and putting out fires.
I know very little about firefighting (although my grandfather was one, and I used to hang out the firehouse around Christmas time) ... but I'm sure there's some practical theory and procedures that can be tested via a written exam. This probably applies to almost all professions.

I know locally, to apply for the job you have to pass pretty thorough written exam too, not just the physical tests.
post #40 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
I know very little about firefighting (although my grandfather was one, and I used to hang out the firehouse around Christmas time) ... but I'm sure there's some practical theory and procedures that can be tested via a written exam. This probably applies to almost all professions.

I know locally, to apply for the job you have to pass pretty thorough written exam too, not just the physical tests.
And such a test requires Ricci to take six months off to study for the exam and pay $1000 in tutoring fees to pass it?

Come on.
post #41 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
And such a test requires Ricci to take six months off to study for the exam and pay $1000 in tutoring fees to pass it?

Come on.
Actually I know a guy trying to get into the Tampa FD and he was studying for months for the certifications and paying probably more than $1000 in classes to prepare for it.

From the job description it requires the following certifications:

Quote:
Salary Range: 35,243.52 - $66,693.12 a year (48-hour work week). High-School Diploma or an equivalency certificate issued by a State Board of Education. Minimum Age: 18 years. Florida Firefighter Certificate of Compliance. Florida Paramedic or EMT-Basic Certificate.
I think those certificates require written tests.

Hey I'm just talking about entrance, not saying if this is a good idea for promotion, specially if you are already in the system and in good standing.
post #42 of 202
It seems to me that, unless you are a firefighter, or have intimate knowledge of the process by which one becomes a firefighter, then it's pretty specious to question the testing process outright.

ETA: Not that those aren't good points, respectively, regarding the guard test. Still, it seems to me that requiring a written exam on ANY subject, when that exam involves questions pertaining to the job at hand, is far from on-its-face discriminatory.

My point, such as it is, is that Ricci appears to have been discriminated against in the name of preventing discrimination. And that's an uncomfortable result for me personally. It's one thing to provide opportunities for the disenfranchised. It's another to take opportunities away from those who've worked for them in order to maintain a semblance of 'equality'. And I should note that I'm not speaking from a position of particular knowledge - just expressing my immediate thoughts.

ETFurtherA: I just realized that I may be derailing this thread. Apologies.
post #43 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Custer View Post
It seems to me that, unless you are a firefighter, or have intimate knowledge of the process by which one becomes a firefighter, then it's pretty specious to question the testing process outright.

ETA: Not that those aren't good points, respectively, regarding the guard test. Still, it seems to me that requiring a written exam on ANY subject, when that exam involves questions pertaining to the job at hand, is far from on-its-face discriminatory.

My point, such as it is, is that Ricci appears to have been discriminated against in the name of preventing discrimination. And that's an uncomfortable result for me personally. It's one thing to provide opportunities for the disenfranchised. It's another to take opportunities away from those who've worked for them in order to maintain a semblance of 'equality'. And I should note that I'm not speaking from a position of particular knowledge - just expressing my immediate thoughts.

ETFurtherA: I just realized that I may be derailing this thread. Apologies.
I think these are all entirely fair points, Jesse. My own point is that Sotomayor's hands were tied in deciding Ricci. She applied well-settled precedent.

Congress passed the law that is the basis on which Sotomayor held that the New Haven Fire Department's test had a disparate impact on a protected class. It's preposterous for pundits and wingnuts to lambaste Sotomayor and try to paint her as an activist judge playing identity politics when the Second Circuit panel (3 judges, not just her) that heard the case ruled on the basis of longstanding precedent and federal law that has been on the books for almost half a century.

If Title VII is unconstitutional, the Supreme Court will tell us soon enough. But, again, that's not on Sotomayor. As a court of appeals judge, she's bound by the cases decided before Ricci. The reason why the Supreme Court granted cert to review the case is because the same reasons you have articulated may result in ruling Title VII's disparate impact provisions unconstitutional.

I, myself, think that's a bad idea, but that's just my opinion.

ETA: Disparate impact theory, for whomever is interested. It's not about intentional discrimination. Disparate impact tries to remove the social barriers that have kept minorities (a protected class under Title VII) in an historically disadvantaged position. A written test can be considered a social barrier, not necessarily put in place to prevent minorities from climbing the social ladder, because, as I previously mentioned, minorities have not had access to a quality education. If the test isn't narrowly tailored to test the actual qualifications required for the job, and the test is found to have a disparate impact, then the test violates Title VII.

If the test is, however, an accurate predictor of on the job performance, then the whole point is moot, and no disparate impact is found to exist.
post #44 of 202
Trust'em folks, this man is an attorney.
post #45 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
I think these are all entirely fair points, Jesse. My own point is that Sotomayor's hands were tied in deciding Ricci. She applied well-settled precedent.

Congress passed the law that is the basis on which Sotomayor held that the New Haven Fire Department's test had a disparate impact on a protected class. It's preposterous for pundits and wingnuts to lambaste Sotomayor and try to paint her as an activist judge playing identity politics when the Second Circuit panel (3 judges, not just her) that heard the case ruled on the basis of longstanding precedent and federal law that has been on the books for almost half a century.

If Title VII is unconstitutional, the Supreme Court will tell us soon enough. But, again, that's not on Sotomayor. As a court of appeals judge, she's bound by the cases decided before Ricci. The reason why the Supreme Court granted cert to review the case is because the same reasons you have articulated may result in ruling Title VII's disparate impact provisions unconstitutional.
Absolutely, Spook. I agree with your point and said as much to start - Sotomayor's reasoning was correct. Speaking personally, the result of fair and intelligent application of the law seems to have yielded unjust results for Mr. Ricci. That's my 'point,' such as it is. I feel for him. And I'll be interested to follow the case to the SC.

Bottom line, and to keep things on the rails: Sotomayor appears to be a distinguished and intelligent judge. Every criticism and complaint leveled at her from the usual right-wing machines thus far has been baseless and hollow, if not outright racist/sexist.
post #46 of 202
post #47 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spook View Post
If Title VII is unconstitutional, the Supreme Court will tell us soon enough. But, again, that's not on Sotomayor.
Of course, if Sotomayor were appointed, it would be on her. And it makes a really pertinent question as to how she would handle cases as a Supreme Court judge. Because the Supreme Court absolutely is not like other courts, they do not just apply the law as it has been established, they establish the law as it relates to the Constitution. This is the fundamental purpose of the Court, and it gets lost when people start bitching about 'activist judges' and 'strict literalism' and other such ignorant bullet points.

Confirmation hearings have become a charade, because everyone is so damned afraid to point out the fact that as a Supreme Court justice, your job is to determine what is legal and what isn't legal in terms of the rights and liberties afforded in the Constitution. If the question could be answered by simple precedent, the question wouldn't reach the Supreme Court.

"So, Judge Sotomayor, as a Supreme Court justice how would your ruling on Title VII differ from your ruling as a federal judge?" That is an absolutely valid question, one that would seriously help the legislature in its role of 'advise and consent,' but no one will ask it, and if they do, the nominee will have to duck it. It's so goddamned stupid.

At it's finest gradation, being a Supreme is about applying subjective standards and subjective interpretations to open-ended questions that people like to pretend are objective. The amount of legal tectonic shifting that takes place in and around the 14th amendment is absolutely staggering - the law as it is applied as a consequence has only a peripheral bearing to the amendment as it was written (as it was 'intended' in the orignalist mode of thought).

This isn't a bad thing. But the conservative impulse to jump on 'judicial activism' belies their underlying paucity of intellect. Of course judges are active because the law is active. The dead words engraved in the Constitution are not what makes this country great - a slave being worth 2/3rds of a vote in the Senate is not what makes this country great. Are we a nation of men, or of laws? The Supreme Court is one of the linchpins of American exceptionalism, because we are a nation of laws, save for when, on rare occasion, a very select group of men (and a few women, in the contemporary era) overturn those laws as incompatible with ideals not only explicated in the founding documents but those inferred from the cracks.

This is not an ideologically confined perspective, either. Justice Hugo Black derived rights to speech and privacy from the Constitution and the amendments based on personal interpretations and social demands markedly divorced from a textual reading of those documents. Justice Scalia advocates interpreting these same texts based on 'originalist intent' - one way of doing this is to read the peripheral documents and personal writings of the time, so as to determine what these guys were 'really thinking.' Obviously, I think one of these approaches is fucking stupid, but they represent opposite ends of judicial thought that both speak to the underlying necessity of judicial activism.

Or you can just apply the law as it is written, and get Dred Scott.
post #48 of 202
Ahh, it's so refreshing to see a rich, powerful white guy accuse a successful minority person of racism. Man, that kinda stuff is gonna win Republicans so many votes...

EDIT: (in regards to Ed's Gingrich post...)
post #49 of 202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Custer View Post
Speaking personally, the result of fair and intelligent application of the law seems to have yielded unjust results for Mr. Ricci. That's my 'point,' such as it is.
I think this is really well said, and far more concise than my wayward train of thought. If the result of fair and intelligent application of the law yields an injustice, it should be up to the Supreme Court to remedy that. The methodology for handling a case like that should be what a confirmation hearing is all about.
post #50 of 202
When was the last time Gingrich had a real job?
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