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The new Batman and Robin - Page 2

post #51 of 69
I felt Bruce's reveal was a bit contrived, but I really enjoyed the issue and didn't think it was convoluted. For the most part, Dr. Hurt's origin was revealed, which has been the biggest mystery for most of Morrison's run. The only other mystery left is how Batman returned to the present, but I think that will be cleared up in RoBW 6, which was supposed to be released before this issue.
post #52 of 69
Thread Starter 
Didn't really know what was going on at the beginning with Daemons, Barbatos and shocked naked women. Is it something that's been showing up in THE RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE? I haven't been following it. After reading the rest of the issue, I assumed the bat eating guy was Doctor Hurt. Then I Wiki'd Doctor Hurt to fill in the gaps. DC comics need recap pages.

But aside from that, I think I followed most of the story.
My thoughts on Bruce's "I pay Batman's bills" move all depend BATMAN INC. If that turns out to be a good comic, I'm fine with it.

And I don't know if this new writer can make the characters interesting, but I'm glad they're keeping Dick and Damien together.
post #53 of 69
It's not incomprehensible, it's just dense. Try rereading the whole Morrison run again at one sitting. I did that around the climax of Batman RIP after struggling a bit with it on an issue-by-issue basis, and suddenly it made perfect sense. Morrison has a tendency to set things up in passing issues in advance so that you've forgotten about them by the time they pay off. But when you read them in a single sitting it feels perfectly natural. He's using novelistic pacing more than monthly periodical pacing.

There ARE a lot of references to other bits of Bat-mythology--these articles may help--but you don't really have to know them in advance. Morrison gives you everything you need.

I think Batman going global is an obvious reference to the way Batman is such a huge corporate cash cow in the real world. This sets the stage for some very interesting commentary on how superheroes are corporate mascots, and the (disturbing, to me) way they create brand loyalty among pop culture geeks. Even without the inevitable reset button, "Batman, Inc." can't end well from a thematic perspective.
post #54 of 69
Took me this long to realize that this cover:



...is riffing on Adam West/Burt Ward poses.
post #55 of 69
Thread Starter 
The DOUBLE PUNCH panels during this run always reminded me of the 60s show.

post #56 of 69

Picking Batman's Brain

Now an attempt at a fanboy armchair psychoanalysis of Bruce Wayne and Batman, with special attention to the events of the last 25 years.

Batman's life has become an endless cycle of violence, grief, and catharsis. Obviously this began with the death of Thomas and Martha Wayne, but I believe Batman himself has been perpetuating this cycle since the death of Jason Todd. This event was, of course, inspired by its ocurrence in The Dark Knight Returns. Batman's arc in that storyline was him being pushed too far by a great act of violence, quitting briefly only to return with renewed vigor, although this return is highlighted by a mistrust of old friends, and a reaffirmation of his mission by surrounding himself with new, strongly devoted allies.

Unfortunately this storyline has been repeated again and again in every major "event" of the last 25 years, culminating in Infinite Crisis in 2006.

Although Geoff Johns got the ball rolling in that book with Batman's epiphany that Dick Grayson is the best the DCU can offer, Grant Morrison took said ball and ran with it starting with 52. Without any proof, I'll argue that Morrison steered the direction of the end of Infinite Crisis, with Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman forgiving each other and leaving to seek a year of reinvigoration.

That was 2006, followed by Morrison's run on Batman that continues to this day in slightly different permutations. I'll give Morrison credit, he seems to have broken the cycle, and he's done that by allowing Batman to forgive himself. From an in-universe perspective it could be argued that Batman was allowing his "family" to be victimized (Barbara Gordon, Jason Todd, Stephanie Brown) simply so he would have an excuse to continue his insane mission.

Through a happy convergence of coincidence, both Jason Todd and Stephanie Brown have recently been revealed to be alive, and Barbara Gordon continues to be a character that is stronger post-trauma. Morrison seems to have picked up on those tidbits, and decided that Batman need no longer feel guilty. This was continued by a few slight alterations: by allowing Joe Chill back into continuity, Batman gained a degree of closure early on in his career, and now can fight crime for nobler causes other than vengeance. As well, Morrison pulled a reversal: there was still an act of violence, but in this instance Batman himself was the victim.

By having the character experience that act of violence first hand, he can now reinvigorate and integrate both the Bruce Wayne and Batman sides of his life, which I think we're seeing right now with the end of Morrison's run on Batman & Robin and his start on Batman, Inc.

In short, by forgiving himself for the death of his parents (and their symbolic deaths in Jason Todd and Stephanie Brown), Bruce can now separate himself from Batman and treat the persona as the symbol it's always been. Hence his willingness to allow an army of Batmen.

AAAAAAAAAAND I thought about it too much.
post #57 of 69
Ironically, as well, Batman was both victim and perpetrator when he picked up a gun and aimed it at Darkseid. He was reinacting his parent's death, but from a different perspective: his parents' AND Joe Chill's.
post #58 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
It's not incomprehensible, it's just dense. Try rereading the whole Morrison run again at one sitting...

There ARE a lot of references to other bits of Bat-mythology--but you don't really have to know them in advance. Morrison gives you everything you need.
I agree completely.

Morrison's writing is a bit odd in this regard. When most people talk about "writing for the trade" they mean drawing things out and decompressing the story. Morrison takes a different approach--he packs so much information and detail into the story that until the storyline nears the completion it can be hard to see how it all adds up. It typically adds up pretty well, though, so it's worth the work of rereading everything at the end.

As for the upcoming Batman Inc. storyline, I've been thinking about an old Newsarama interview that seems to have been eaten by their site redesign.

In the interview, Morrison argued that Batman's supporting cast is pretty much made up of characters who really are nothing more than aspects of Batman's personality. They've become such have as Batman's character has become more and more narrowly focused.

It's an interesting idea. I'm not sure I agree with him 100%, but I'd say it's true to an extent. It definitely puts an interesting spin on the Batman Inc. stuff as well as a lot of the Batman and Robin part of his storyline as well.

I wish I could find that damn interview!
post #59 of 69
The recontextualization of the bell scene from Year One in the last issue of Return of Bruce Wayne was amazing.
post #60 of 69
Thread Starter 
Yeah reading everything Morrison writes in one shot is definitely the way to do it. I read BATMAN & ROBIN #1-16 the other day and most of it came together very nicely. When I read the book from month to month (or from month to 2-4 months, depending on delays), I completely forgot some things. Like the Barbatos/Thomas Wayne stuff that was covered in the "Batman vs. Robin" arc and then pops back up in the "Batman and Robin Must Die" arc.

I still have some questions, though. I think a lot of these are questions that Morrison hasn't gotten around to answering yet, but I'll ask anyway.

-Batman says Black Glove was contaminated by a "weapon from another world". Was he talking about Barbatos or something else?

-Did Black Glove set up the death of Thomas/Martha Wayne or was that just a delusion?

-What was the deal with that box Black Glove was trying to open? Was that covered in The Return of Bruce Wayne?

-Does Joker know that Batman is Bruce Wayne? I don't see how he couldn't. He seemed like a pretty good "detective" and between RIP/Batman & Robin he's been hanging around Wayne Manor a lot.

-How did Joker know about the "bat bunker"?

-What was the Mexican Train/Bones/Dominos connection between Joker and Black Glove? Was that something mentioned in RIP that I forgot?
post #61 of 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by wadew1 View Post
-Batman says Black Glove was contaminated by a "weapon from another world". Was he talking about Barbatos or something else?
This is where Morrison's tendency to set things up in one series and then pay them off in another comes into play (see also: JLA Classified --> Seven Soldiers, DC One Million --> All-Star Superman). In this case, the setup came in Final Crisis and Return of Bruce Wayne. The "weapon from another world" was Barbatos, but that was just the name given by the Magiani to the hyperfauna hunter/killer that Darkseid sent after Bruce.

Quote:
-Did Black Glove set up the death of Thomas/Martha Wayne or was that just a delusion?
I think that was just a delusion.

Quote:
-What was the deal with that box Black Glove was trying to open? Was that covered in The Return of Bruce Wayne?
Yes.
post #62 of 69
Thread Starter 
I read THE RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE. Surprise! It's a lot to digest.
A shame about the Western issue being the worst drawn one.

So I guess the hunter/killer monster thing was also called the "hyper adapter" and it's been keeping Hurt alive for hundreds of years? Also, the last issue hints at Darkseid using Hurt as a vessel. I guess Hurt might be Darkseid's back-up plan if he failed to take over Bruce?

Anyway, what I really liked about BATMAN AND ROBIN was the moments where Dick is the patient/easy going teacher and Damian is becoming the begrudgingly loyal student. Damian is a good choice for Robin. A Robin that isn't rough around the edges and a bit of a wild card isn't very interesting. I also loved when Joker is thrown into the mix and Damian & Dick handle him in completely different ways. Damian's crowbar moment was great and Dick's interrogation provides one of my favorite lines of the series.

"Joker, it's me. I had you figured out when I was 12."

I thought Joker was used better in B&R than he was during Batman RIP. Joker's Batman is gone and he has "too much in common" with the new Batman, so he uses B&R as pawns against his new arch nemesis Dr. Hurt. The way Joker takes out Hurt was pretty great. A banana peel gag! Then he's promptly knocked out by a KA-POW punch from the recently returned Bruce Wayne.
post #63 of 69
Without spoiling myself on the whole run, does anyone know if the issues after 12 are being collected into hardcover? I read the first collection and the second is on the way.

(And does Quitely ever come back to drawing whole issues after 12? Quitely, more like QUITly, amirite??)
post #64 of 69
Thread Starter 
Batman Volume 3: Batman and Robin Must Die!
http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Robin-V.../dp/1401230911
I wouldn't wait until May, though.

And Quitely doesn't come back.
I like his art, but Cameron Stewart and Fraser Irving were my favorite artists during this run.
post #65 of 69
Thanks wadew! Shame about Quitely, though.
post #66 of 69
Nobody matches Quitely, but Frazier Irving does some really good work on the book.
post #67 of 69

Great interview.  I am enjoying this series a lot. http://io9.com/5301435/grant-morrison-tells-all-about-batman-and-robin

post #68 of 69

I just read Phil's post, and I have to say, for those wishing to get into Batman and Robin, you might want to check out TIME AND THE BATMAN and RETURN OF BRUCE WAYNE. Both are written by Morrison, and they flesh out the main story occurring in Batman and Robin. Otherwise you might be scratching your head a lot. Grant's been on Batman for awhile now, and everything is so interconnected. He's done at least fifty issues.

post #69 of 69

So I got Showcase Presents: Batman & The Outsiders from the library over the weekend. A fun little read, very '80s in its traditional tone and depiction of a super-team's dynamic. Not quite as solid as Claremont's X-Men or Wolfman's Teen Titans, but a nice peek into a very particular place in Batman's history. With that in mind, it was fascinating to discover that Batman informs the Outsiders (as he reveals their headquarters to be Wayne Towers, as Bruce Wayne has moved back into Wayne Manor) that Bruce Wayne is his benefactor.

 

In a later scene featuring Bruce Wayne talking to Halo, he informs her that he and Batman don't get along very well, and that they don't even like each other. This was a nice wink at the audience, but I also think it's an apt bit of psychoanalysis on Mike W. Barr's part. He's a writer I enjoy, especially his later addition to the Batman mythos, Son of the Demon.

 

In fact, first published in 1983, Batman & The Outsiders is a strong indicator of the grim & gritty Batman that Miller was to introduce in The Dark Knight Returns. He quits the Justice League in a huff, insulting their values in the process, and invades a foreign country to save Lucious Fox. When he organizes the Outsiders, he keeps them at arm's length and is often cold and calculating in his dealings. This all comes to a head during the B&TO crossover with The New Teen Titans, when Batman assumes the leadership role with the younger heroes until he and Robin butt heads.

 

The difference between this Batman and the Post-Crisis Batman that dominated the '90s and early 2000s is he makes mistakes and can admit when he's wrong. He listens to Robin's criticism and respects his take-charge attitude. At the end of the first twelve issues, Batman comes to trust his new team and reveals his secret identity to them. Morrison is actually exploring similar ground with his run. First of all the revelation to the public that Bruce Wayne is Batman's benefactor, but also the notion that for a loner Batman sure has a lot of friends and family.

 

In fact, the Dick Grayson we see as Batman now is very much the culmination of what Marv Wolfman started in Teen Titans (and what Chuck Dixon continued in Nightwing). It's satisfying to read Grant Morrison, because he's not just a great writer and philosopher, but he's a stickler for research and obviously respects the source material.

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