MOON Post-Release Thread - Page 10

I don't know about physical copies but it's available on iTunes for download.

Yeah, I'm fine with the ending as is.

It strikes me that this is as much an "escape" movie as a science fiction movie. They're essentially slaves as they have no hope for freedom or reward. At least the real Sam Bell got his reward, these guys get disintegrated. Part of the movie is about transcending your place in life, emotionally and otherwhise. And I think that's true of GERTY as well. GERTY is quietly allowing all of this to happen, allowing them to roam about the surface and discover what's out there, and when the final reveal comes it totally makes sense.

^Yeah I think the edit break Sam sees in his videos "from home" are caused by Gerty (That, or the whole system is succumbing to entropy). The scene where Gerty's arm comes up behind Sam as he's trying to hack the system was a real "holy shit" moment for me.

The farther I get away from this film the more it reminds me of Philip K Dick's vision of the Universe: what we experience as the "real world" is a fake, a shabby fake at that.

I think the edits in the videos were made by the company to prevent him from hearing any clues that the video is old news.

What would be Gerty's motivation to edit the videos? We know from the rest of the movie that Gerty's need to protect Sam doesn't preclude revealing information to him that the company would like to keep secret. The company editing the videos makes the most sense.

The moment with Gerty coming up behind Sam is great because you think that's when he's going to go full blown HAL on him but you realize it's not like that at all.

What do people make up the malfunction in the computer displays where Sam sees previous versions of himself at the console?

Is that just an error (or the whole system succumbing to entropy, as Cylon Baby said above)? Or something more?

I think that's just an error. And I don't think Gerty is "learning" anything. It's more impactful to me that Gerty's programming (KEEP SAM SAFE) is functioning properly at all times, just not in the ways its makers intended.

These are interesting twin points. I spent the entire movie waiting for Gerty to go HAL, and was relieved when it didn't happen, because I'm tired of killer computers.

Later, though, when I thought about it, I realized that Gerty is quite a bit like HAL. He interprets limited instructions to come to a conclusion that his creators didn't intend. The main difference is that HAL's instructions were to protect the mission, and Gerty's were to protect the crew. That difference in their programmed priorities is all that separates their reactions.

Good point. Gerty IS like Hal, just a different spin on the idea that leads to a very different narrative.

It sounded very Asimovian while I was watching this. It seems the programmers forgot to protect the company investment first. If Gerty was programmed like the Nostromo's device Sam would had been really fucked up.

Finally saw this last night (it quickly jumped near the top of my 2009 list), and had a conversation this morning about planned obsolescence vs. possible radiation poisoning. I've read through the thread and have no want or need to debate that point, but I do think that even given his Q&A answer, Jones deliberately plays around with the notion enough to suggest other possibilities. Which is more a manipulation of the Sams than the audience. I'm thinking specifically of the scene where Sam2 puts Sam1 in his bed and covers him up, then immediately goes to get a drink of water. The camera lingers on the water and the glass in such a way that my mind immediately went to tainting. I also don't think it's any coincidence that the breakdown of the clones mirrors symptons of radiation poisoning. Even if Jones knows it's planned obsolescence and the so does the audience, the Sams shouldn't know that. I think Jones was very smartly showing us how a Sam might rationalize his being so sick.

I'm no expert, and am willing to be corrected, but I don't think that radiation poisoning functions the way Sam dies in the movie.

The basic symptoms seem similar, but he's perfectly healthy for two years and then falls apart in a few days. I'm pretty sure if radiation poisoning is going to kill you, it'll work faster than that. Of course, radiation exposure can give you cancer over the course of two years, but that involves different symptoms and a more prolonged death than that which Sam experiences.

It's also not very conducive to getting the work done that they presumably need him to do. The clones need to stay healthy until their "shipout" date. It wouldn't make much sense to intentionally make them deathly ill before that time.

Still makes no sense. Sweet. Enjoy the movie for the other merits. I'm sad it's been reduced to this debate.

What doesn't make sense about it?

What's so reductive about it? It's an intriguing and important part of the movie. I brought it up again to add a little wrinkle that hadn't been discussed before.

Anyway, moving on to something else, it was brilliant the way Jones used the rescue team ETA countdown to cast a pall of dread over the third act without ever overstating it. I kept thinking how decisions like that would have been made on a big budget version of the movie. The Sams would have had two or three conversations about the rescue team coming to kill them. (The movie also would have been 147 minutes long, but I digress.)

I thought it was cool too, but to be fair it's a direct lift from Outland, which itself was reworking of High Noon's central tension builder.

Yeah, I mean it's not a very novel idea. I just like the way he drew tension from it so effectively without relying on exposition.

The score and editing in act three are also SO fucking good and help to build that tension.* Like you said, he doesn't hit you over the head with it, but it just works. I can close my eyes right now and see the shadow of the rescue ship descending on the base, hear the chugging score in my head, and think "C'mon, c'mon, Sam, HURRY UP! Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck!"

*Score and editing are pretty amazing throughout, actually. But extra-nice in act three.

I loved 'Moon' and am glad it fosters debate like this, but I really don't get where people get the radiation poisoning. It's really so simple that it should hurt your head to think otherwise.

The camera focuses on the water. So fucking what? So the water's clean until the last few weeks of Sam's stay? And then Gerty poisons it.

No wait, the radiation has no effect for 2 years, 11 months. Yeah, that's it. All of those clones lying beneath the base are totally secure in a radiation free joint. That's it.

WAIT! Every time Sam goes out to fix something he gets some radiation and the last time he goes he's out there for a full day in the rover. THAT'S the one. Yes. Yes, that's it. And there was a solar flare too! So quadruple the radiation exposure! Totally fucked Sam. Totally fucked.

Starz Play. Ugh.

Wait and get the disc.

Motherfuck

Ah, Netflix:

My wife and I finally watched this on Starz last night. Really enjoyed it. Here was my take on the illness--we surmised that the clones only last 3 years. Then they start falling apart. That's why the "contract" is 3 years. If you notice the old tapes, those guys commented that their hair was falling out, and that they were having other issues. Sort of like the Replicants in Blade Runner. It was a really good movie, though.

Also, am I the only one that noticed that "Satellite" was misspelled throughout the movie on the screen? It was spelled "SATTELITE". I assumed that it got misspelled, and either it was too expensive to change, or no one noticed it.

So I'm kinda necroing this thread, but since I love the movie, I have two questions/issues that if someone could answer, that'd be great:

- Does it seem like, from the company's perspective, really short-sided engineering the clones to degrade at exactly the time their contracts are ending? Why risk having a clone break down too much to get to the Cook-A-Clone? Maybe Gerty has tools at its disposals to deal with that redundancy, but a company that wants to keep the Sams ignorant would rather have the Sams eagerly jump into the Cook-A-Clone rather than stumble into it.

- Does Gerty have the ability to alter the clone's memories prior to waking up? It seems to me that the movie wants me to think that new clones wake up thinking they are at the beginning of their contract, but Sam2 wakes up thinking he's Sam1 post-accident. If he does have the ability to alter memories, why doesnt he make Sam2 think they've always only had two working harvesters, and only one working rover?

- Only tangentially related to the movie, but does every commentary track in every DVD have to make a "Oh, well, sorry if you're listening to this commentary track before watching the movie proper, sorry for spoiling what comes next!" comment/joke? Increasingly less minor pet peeve of mine.

I absolutely love the movie (and I love Whistle, that short film on the DVD as well), so these are minor quibbles.

I don't think Sam 2 wakes up thinking he's Sam 1 post accident. GERTY telling him he's been in accident seems like it's the way to explain why the Sams are unconscious, and don't remember arriving on the moon.

Yeah, see Bub's response on the second question.

For the first question, that's a decent point, but maybe cloning is expensive and they are looking for value for money?

The first question is more of a "why don't they shoot the horses in Stagecoach?" type question.

Right, I got that the "there was a crash while you arrived" was the cover story for a clone waking up, but Sam2 does, I believe, he's Sam1. He remembers Gerty and he is visibly disturbed when he sees only one space suit and one rover. There is admittedly a mixture of Sam2-as-new-guy and Sam2-as-Sam1, which doesn't distract from the piece as not give me a solid bead on the minutiae.

I think you need to watch that sequence again, carefully. The audience is manipulated into thinking that the second Sam is the first one recovering from his accident, but in fact, he says nothing to indicate that. The accident that's referred to is the fictional one. He thinks he's just begun his contract, but the dialogue is carefully worded to hide that until he finds the first Sam.

The reason he's disturbed to find a suit and rover missing is because he's supposed to be the only one on the moon. I'd be pretty disturbed.

Haven't had a chance to read through this thread yet, but wanted to get my thoughts down before reading others'. Such a wonderful film. Very tight, no scene felt extraneous. It was emotionally compelling as well. I totally teared up when Sam1 (I guess really 5) realizes what's going on, particularly when he calls his family and learns his wife has died and his baby daughter is now 15 years old. I totally loved the philosophical underpinnings of whether clones are people too. The pure glee of Sam2/6 flying down to Earth was so joyous. I felt liberated as well as the whole movie is so claustrophobic. And of course, the ending with Sam2/6 testifying before congress was a wonderful capper to the film.

The only thing that bugged me was how quickly Sam2/6 figured out they were clones. But it's a minor issue that in no way diminishes my enjoyment of the film.

A few questions:

1) What to make of Sam1/5's hallucinations in the TV room and when he crashed into the harvester? How is that related to the whole clone thing? Or is it related to...

2) What's up with his failing health? Do the clones have a 3 year clock and then just start disintegrating? I couldn't quite make it out, but when Sam was looking at the old logs, I thought I saw several different Sam's also losing teeth and throwing up blood.

3) If the Sam's don't somehow die after 3 years, what happens to them? We saw video of one/some getting into the cryopod, but what happens to their bodies? Do they just get punted out into space to float into the ether?

These are probably answered already so I skim the thread.

Hit up pages 5 and 6 for a lengthy Q&A with the director transcribed by Tieman, Diva.

For that, I thought it was made pretty clear that the bodies get vaporized.

Untrue; Gerty asks him directly if Sam2 remembers him, and he says he does. A Sam that is just beginning his contract wouldn't know Gerty, nor would he sabotage the base to find a previous self of his that he would have no idea existed.

The director explained that its a clone variation of the Twins-Know-About-Each-Other phenomena. Somehow, Clone Sam is picking up brainwaves/etc from Original Sam.

Yes.

The 'cryopod' is a Clone-O-Cooker. Clone goes in, dust comes out.

Got through about half the thread and then the discussion just kept repeating. So hopefully I didn't miss much. I did catch some of Tieman's transcripts. Way cool. Thanks for that.

Pretty much all of my questions are answered, which only goes to show how detailed the film really is. Other than the hallucination of his daughter, the other stuff was directly addressed in the film.

Yes. This is what I got out of it too. I thought it was nice arc that made me that much more sad when he realized he wasn't going home.

I haven't praised Rockwell yet but he IS the film. Without his strong performances, the movie fails. I am super impressed with him as an actor.

Wow, didn't recognized the song. Nice little touch there. Although I haven't mentioned it yet, the score is amazing. I don't normally notice scores, but this one worked so well you couldn't help but notice how it complimented each scene.

I was wondering about this, too. Gerty never denied that Sam was a clone, but explicitly avoided answering the question the first time Sam asked. Plus, the whole issue of Gerty keeping Sam2/6 on lockdown. There definitely was a shift in Gerty's motivations.

Yup, you touched on all the little details that made me smile. The "Kick Me" sign was great.

I liked the ending, but I'm a political junkie so it appeals to my sensibilities. Even though I knew Sam made it to Earth alive and was causing trouble for the company, my first thought was how it was possible given that the pod was likely going to arrive at the company. Wouldn't someone there see him? My best guess is that they have robots doing the unpacking or that the pod just automatically opens upon arrival, and since it was unscheduled, there wouldn't be anyone around to see what was inside.

The clone's memories are that they've been working for a little bit of time and then get in a crash early in their tenure. So he would know Gerty based on the cover story.

I think it's a bigger feat of writing if you interpret it as the opposite. From the second half of the thread:

There's a lot of ways to read it, I reckon. But that's the one that resonates for me.

That totally works for me as well. Thanks.

I went cold into it as well and I think that helped. I was blown away (in a very subtle way). What about SPOILERS BELOW!!!
the visions? Is that b/c his 3 years was almost up (do they only live 3 years I wonder?).

Yeah, that and the whole clone/twin/psychic link thing.

Just wanted to say that the BluRay looks incredible.
Watched it for the third time and it's still as effective.

Probably small consolation, but Moon won the Hugo Award for Best Dramatic Presentation at the WorldCon in Melbourne, Australia.

Better late than never!

Did the film only recently come out in Australia?

No, it's just the timing of the Worldcon at which the awards were announced. It's not tied into the country in which the convention is held; the Hugos are given out at whatever SF convention is designated as that year's Worldcon. This year's was in Melbourne.

Moon beat out Avatar, District 9 (the film I thought would take it), Star Trek and Up.

As much as I hate to dismiss District 9, I'd say that Moon deserved it.

I am, however, a little mystified that Up was being considered. It may actually be my favorite of all those films, but science fiction it ain't.

Just watched this for a second time, and I loved it even more than the first time. I don't think there's much I can say about this film that hasn't already been said, but I think the re-watch helped me connect with the film emotionally a bit more since my mind wasn't busy processing the whole clone plot.

Just wanted to add that this time a part that got to me was Sam taking the "Kick Me" sign off Gerty at the end. It was just such a touching little moment that helped humanize Gerty a bit and showed Sam's appreciation for him.

SPOILERS

Reading Phil's thought that Gerty was following programming to the letter, I find it interesting that the end result of both HAL and Gerty's strict adherance to a simple directive was deception. HAL, on the behalf of the mission, and Gerty on the behalf of Sam's survival.

To just add my two cents, since the movie influences on Moon have already been covered so well in this thread already, I wanted to just bring up the wonderful literary sci-fi stuff the movie brings up. I think the division between hard sci-fi and soft is way too emphasized (they both deal with things more than likely to ever exist) but if there is a division, it's more about focus than anything else. Hard sci-fi deals with the consequences of future tech on society, while soft sci-fi, as written by Ursula le Guin, Bradbury, etc, focus more tightly on characters and emotions. And this movie is very much the latter, and its humanistic in its take on characters wanting to help each other in a situation desperately calling for it. It grapples with things that are almost incomprehensibly awful, and its a credit to the movie that it ends with a note of optimism. With its spare storytelling, undated look, and powerful emotional content, its already a classic.

Also, I love Gerty. Asimov has a quote about why he started writing his robot stories because he was so tired of the machines being portrayed as laser blasting assholes. I guess Jones felt the same way.

Waaaay late to the party, but just caught this via DVR and one of my HD cable channels. A few quick thoughts, as I don't want to regurgitate what's been said (not too much, at least):

 

- Rockwell was amazing. Just amazing.

- Loved the use of miniatures.

- Mansell's score killed.

- Jones seems to be circling similar identity-themed territory as Nolan, but Jones already seems to have a better intuitive grasp on the emotional core of the stories

 

I'll give this a bit and see if I can find the blu somewhere and give it a second viewing. I liked it, and really admired the thought and intelligence behind it....but it wasn't something that screamed "Own it!" or "Watch it again!" I'd argue that this is a better-told story than SOURCE CODE, but I enjoyed SOURCE CODE more.

 

And finally: Phil's succinct take on this as an atheist parable makes me feel both smarter and dumber. Smarter, because it exemplifies why I come to CHUD, and the kind of analysis I love about any kind of story, written or visual. Dumber, because once it's spelled out, I feel like I should have spotted it.

 

A really great thread, y'all. Good stuff.