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The 'goddamit I kinda like Supernatural' thread - Page 8

post #351 of 398
1/3/11 at 8:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
No I understand what your saying. I just don't think they had the "atheists are wrong and stupid" when they wrote that. I honestly feel they were coming at it from a place that Dean has seen no proof of a good Supernatural force. All the bad things that have happened and the good guys don't lift a finger. Look you are approaching it as an outsider using the basic math of if there is this force there must be one to oppose it. But really why? Maybe there truly is just demons and nothing else, I mean they are all over the place. The point is Dean looks at things from a hopeless fucking place and when he finds out what the angels are really all about it only gets worse. In the Supernatural world everything more powerful than us only exists to fuck with us. Trust me Dean's atheist approach of there are no good supernaturals isn't that far off.
Exactly.

Dean even said as much to an Angel (might have been Lucifer), that they were just more Supernatural "crap" that he's been fighting his whole life.

And in the Supernatural universe, it was proven that God exists, and Dean still isn't what one might call a "believer". Why? In this reality, God exists, but he doesn't care and he doesn't interfere.

That said, and all purpose Supernatural thread gives me tingly feelings. Sometimes I want to talk about past episodes of the show, but they're not really appropriate for current Supernatural Season threads.
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post #352 of 398
1/3/11 at 9:28pm
But there's a difference between "angels aren't looking out for our best interests" and "angels don't exist." The former is a logical stance for Dean to take in the context of the show. The latter isn't, really. Unless he's literally taking the stance that, even if you're an insanely powerful heavenly being with wings who serves God, you're not actually an angel unless you do good things. But that's kind of a weird, hair-splitting stance to take.
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post #353 of 398
1/3/11 at 9:49pm
Dean didn't believe in angels/God, he had no real reason too considering all he's been through in life. Then he finds out that angels are real and they're dicks and God is a deadbeat dad. So he wants nothing to do with them, he's on the side of humanity.
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post #354 of 398
1/3/11 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CocoaSugarbaker View Post


That said, and all purpose Supernatural thread gives me tingly feelings. Sometimes I want to talk about past episodes of the show, but they're not really appropriate for current Supernatural Season threads.
You know which episode I really loved? The one where the trickster has them stuck in tv land. That was awesome. There are so many great episodes. Admitedly, there a number of filler and monster of the week episodes. But it's still one of the best genre shows around, better than more popular shows like Walking Dead or Fringe. Although, maybe that ended with the fifth season. I don't see why they kept it on air, the fifth season was the logical end. I loved how they had three season of tv all building up the apocalypse depicted in fifth season, it's actually remarkable.
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post #355 of 398
1/3/11 at 10:11pm
Yeah, it really would have been great if they ended it with season 5. But season 6 is shaping up into something interesting, and if it is the last season and they stick the landing with the ending it could make for a decent epilogue.
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post #356 of 398
1/4/11 at 12:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CocoaSugarbaker View Post
That said, and all purpose Supernatural thread gives me tingly feelings. Sometimes I want to talk about past episodes of the show, but they're not really appropriate for current Supernatural Season threads.
Well they just aired the one with the racist truck on TNT so.....talk about it Also Dean's one true love? Guess he has a few of those scattered about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
But there's a difference between "angels aren't looking out for our best interests" and "angels don't exist." The former is a logical stance for Dean to take in the context of the show. The latter isn't, really. Unless he's literally taking the stance that, even if you're an insanely powerful heavenly being with wings who serves God, you're not actually an angel unless you do good things. But that's kind of a weird, hair-splitting stance to take.
Because they never ever do anything to fight the evil forces. And as it turns out Dean is right and they haven't been on earth fighting for a VERY long time. The only reason they are here now is for a specific reason that I won't spoil although you can guess im sure. There is literally 0% proof of any opposing good in the universe until Dean meets Castiel. For all they know you either disappear or end up in hell when you die.
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post #357 of 398
1/4/11 at 12:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
Because they never ever do anything to fight the evil forces. And as it turns out Dean is right and they haven't been on earth fighting for a VERY long time. The only reason they are here now is for a specific reason that I won't spoil although you can guess im sure. There is literally 0% proof of any opposing good in the universe until Dean meets Castiel. For all they know you either disappear or end up in hell when you die.
There was the season 2 episode "Houses of the Holy", but the ending was more of a 'maybe there is something more' than angels and God exist.
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post #358 of 398
1/4/11 at 12:59am
But listen to what I'm saying: there's a difference between believing in angels and believing in "a force for good that opposes the evil". In Dean's position, you see something that seems to be an angel, it kinda makes sense to go with it until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean you have to like it or agree that it's good, but literally saying "no, that thing that looks like an angel can't be an angel, says the guy who fights demons all day" makes you kind of look like an idiot. There's no particular reason for him to doubt his eyes at this stage of the game, except the writers are trying to heavy-handedly establish him as an atheist in a way that makes no sense.
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post #359 of 398
1/4/11 at 1:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post
But listen to what I'm saying: there's a difference between believing in angels and believing in "a force for good that opposes the evil". In Dean's position, you see something that seems to be an angel, it kinda makes sense to go with it until proven otherwise. That doesn't mean you have to like it or agree that it's good, but literally saying "no, that thing that looks like an angel can't be an angel, says the guy who fights demons all day" makes you kind of look like an idiot. There's no particular reason for him to doubt his eyes at this stage of the game, except the writers are trying to heavy-handedly establish him as an atheist in a way that makes no sense.
I don't think it makes him an idiot for being skeptical. This is a universe with tricksters, shapeshifters, ghosts, and on and on, it's completely believeable how he reacts. He's never seen an Angel before, and never heard of a sighting by any other hunter, thus erring on the side of caution is what you would expect.

Plus, the disbelief lasted for a fairly short while, I just don't see how it was unreasonable or strange.
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post #360 of 398
1/4/11 at 1:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nabster View Post
He's not an atheist. He believes in God, he just doesn't love it.

Also it does not make him an idiot for being skeptical. This is a universe with tricksters, shapeshifters, ghosts, and on and on, it's completely believeable how he reacts. He's never seen an Angel before, and never heard of a sighting by any other hunter, thus erring on the side of caution is what you would expect.

Plus, the disbelief lasted for a fairly short while, I just don't see how it was unreasonable or strange.
It's established he doesn't believe in God earlier in the series.

Dean: "There's no higher power, there's no God. There's just chaos and violence, random unpredictable evil, that comes outta nowhere, rips you to shreds."

But yeah, with all the gods, demons, vampires and all the other supernatural crap walking around the earth in pretty much plain sight, I think he has a right to be cautious about what pulled him from hell. Plus you're right, it pretty much only last for an episode.
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post #361 of 398
1/4/11 at 1:42am
I don't speak of the Racist Truck episode. In my (delusional) made up cannon, it simply doesn't exist.
But I acknowledge that Cassie is his true love. Don't ask how that works, it just DOES.

I did really like the episode that precedes the Episode That Shall Never (EVER) Be Referenced.
Dean has been cheating death since Season one, forget when John Winchester sold himself to hell for him. They've been tampering with their supposed fates since the very beginning.

Edited to add that sure Dean believes in God now, because unlike nearly every other being on the planet, he has actual proof of him. Let god personally haul my ass out of Lucifer's war path, and save me from a plane crash, and give me a personal message from an archangel while in heaven, then I will believe in him too.

At that point, it really isn't faith. God just exists.
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post #362 of 398
1/4/11 at 2:51am
Yeah he knows god exists but he also thinks he is an incredible manipulative dick that he wants no part of.
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post #363 of 398
1/4/11 at 6:41pm
There's also the point that God isn't really THE god, just A god. This was touched on in the episode featuring several of the elder gods, and, while it seems the Judeo-Christian pantheon is somewhat en vogue these days from a cosmic power standpoint, Kali and company didn't seem to accord them any special significance. In fact, they all were a bit pissed about the upstarts running their end-of-world gambit.

From that perspective, Dean's description of "more supernatural crap" is pretty on the money when it comes to godhood.
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post #364 of 398
1/4/11 at 6:49pm
But then a fallen angel, not even God, can just rip the old gods apart. The power level difference was rather striking. I guess Lucifer amped himself up and all, but still, I'd have expected them not to go out like punks.
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post #365 of 398
1/4/11 at 7:19pm
Don't they make the point in the episode that there are one hell of a lot more people worshipping God and Lucifer these days than worship Kali and crew? More faith, more power.
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post #366 of 398
1/4/11 at 7:31pm
There are a bunch of Hindus. I guess Kali lasted longer than Odin, even without the boys' help.
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post #367 of 398
1/4/11 at 7:33pm
Well, sure, I have no doubt that Temple of Doom led to a massive resurgence in Kali worship.
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post #368 of 398
1/4/11 at 7:33pm
With the Christmas episode and the beheading of Paris Hilton, they had been establishing that gods could be killed by the likes of Sam and Dean in the most mundane of fashions. I had no problems with the power levels or how easily it seemed that they could be dispatched in the "Hammer of the Gods" episode. Or as Mattioli said: "more faith, more power."
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post #369 of 398
1/4/11 at 9:00pm
Just like in American Gods. The more people believe, the more powerful they become.

Plus, Death told Dean that he will eventually reap God. So, there are really no Almighty Immortal Beings in existence.
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post #370 of 398
1/4/11 at 11:44pm
******SEASON 2 SPOILERS!******


So one thing that has already intrigued me on a behind the scenes level was Harry Dean Morgan's cameo in the Season 2 finale. As those who saw it know, he was pretty much mute for his appearance which I found a little odd. I do remember hearing that you have to pay an actor so much if they have a speaking role but if it's a nonspeaking role, union rules don't apply and you can pay a lower rate?

Great scene from season 2.

******SPOILERS END******

For those watching Season 6, how's it shaping up so far? I'm about to start on Season 5 and was wondering if the quality of the show remains at a fairly high level or not?
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post #371 of 398
1/5/11 at 12:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post
Harry Dean Morgan's cameo
Heh, I think you just combined Jeffrey Dean Morgan with Harry Dean Stanton. I think I read somewhere that they couldn't get the actor's schedule to work for filming that scene, so they did his whole part on green screen and combined it with Sam and Dean later. Not sure if that had anything to do with the silence or not - it may have just been how they wanted the scene to play.
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post #372 of 398
1/5/11 at 12:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post
******SEASON 2 SPOILERS!******


So one thing that has already intrigued me on a behind the scenes level was Harry Dean Morgan's cameo in the Season 2 finale. As those who saw it know, he was pretty much mute for his appearance which I found a little odd. I do remember hearing that you have to pay an actor so much if they have a speaking role but if it's a nonspeaking role, union rules don't apply and you can pay a lower rate?

Great scene from season 2.

******SPOILERS END******

For those watching Season 6, how's it shaping up so far? I'm about to start on Season 5 and was wondering if the quality of the show remains at a fairly high level or not?
Grace already answered the first question. It was seriously the most bizarre camera work ever.

Season 6. I've had a love/hate relationship with this season and right before hiatus, I'm currently loving it again. It has a much different vibe than any of the previous seasons, and you can kind of tell that there's a different showrunner at the helm.
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post #373 of 398
1/5/11 at 1:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grace View Post
Heh, I think you just combined Jeffrey Dean Morgan with Harry Dean Stanton. I think I read somewhere that they couldn't get the actor's schedule to work for filming that scene, so they did his whole part on green screen and combined it with Sam and Dean later. Not sure if that had anything to do with the silence or not - it may have just been how they wanted the scene to play.
Jeffery Dean Morgan. How did I mess that up? That explains why that scene was so weird. I need to catch up with the first season of Supernatural but don't want to commit to 22 eps. The general agreement is to watch the pilot and ff to the last 3 or 4 eps?
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post #374 of 398
1/5/11 at 10:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post
Jeffery Dean Morgan. How did I mess that up? That explains why that scene was so weird. I need to catch up with the first season of Supernatural but don't want to commit to 22 eps. The general agreement is to watch the pilot and ff to the last 3 or 4 eps?
There's some decent monster of the week stuff in there (I see to recall the wendigo one having very creepy monster effects), but yeah, you could do that and not miss anything super important to the overall arc.
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post #375 of 398
1/5/11 at 11:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by CocoaSugarbaker View Post
Season 6. I've had a love/hate relationship with this season and right before hiatus, I'm currently loving it again. It has a much different vibe than any of the previous seasons, and you can kind of tell that there's a different showrunner at the helm.
Yeah, now that the football season's winding down, I've managed to start catching up on Season 6 (which is unfortunate as I had wanted to do a weekly recap). So far, it's good, but I think it suffers from having to follow what I would argue is the show's strongest season to date. It's taken the characters into some new and interesting places. My one major complaint for Season 6? I just finished the 6th or 7th episode--the one with the Alpha Vamp--and there's no really funny episodes so far... although "Live Free or Twihard" did have its moments. Too much grim 'n' gritty.
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post #376 of 398
1/5/11 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
and there's no really funny episodes so far... although "Live Free or Twihard" did have its moments. Too much grim 'n' gritty.
You're about two episodes away from Edlund.
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post #377 of 398
1/5/11 at 8:26pm

Yup, episode 9 brings the funny, and a great use of some Bowie.

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post #378 of 398
1/6/11 at 10:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamotv View Post

I need to catch up with the first season of Supernatural but don't want to commit to 22 eps. The general agreement is to watch the pilot and ff to the last 3 or 4 eps?


You could do that, but I think you would miss out on some good television.  While it is generally agreed that the show's quality increased as it went on, that doesn't mean the first season is crap.  I would hazard to guess the first season is when many of its fans got hooked (like me for example).  Also, that is back when the show had one seriously kickass soundtrack, something I totally miss these days.

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post #379 of 398
1/10/11 at 2:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Long View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattioli View Post
and there's no really funny episodes so far... although "Live Free or Twihard" did have its moments. Too much grim 'n' gritty.
You're about two episodes away from Edlund.

Whoa, you weren't kidding.  I won't spoil anything in this thread, but that was goddamn hilarious.

 

And, happily, I'm caught up in time for the second half of the season to kick in.  Yay!
 

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post #380 of 398
1/10/11 at 5:12pm

So the next episode is going to involve a dragon or dragons... It should be interesting seeing how they pull that one of in a good way. 

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post #381 of 398
1/10/11 at 5:25pm

Just caught up with Season 6 myself and if it followed Season 2, I would be head over heels in love with what's going on here.   Unfortunately it has to follow an epic 3 season storyline that at least I think stuck the landing.   The first few episodes were a little on the shaky side but it looks like it's found its groove again by the time "Weekend at Bobby's" rolled around. 

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post #382 of 398
3/12/11 at 8:13am

My wife and I are netlixing the hell out of this series.  We're on season 2 disc 3 at this point.  The first season was good, but damn....you can sure tell when a team has found its stride.  There's just some amazing confidence and swagger to the show at this point.

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post #383 of 398
3/13/11 at 9:36am

I'm now caught up to the end of S5. I reiterate my frustration with this show. There's some good stuff--mostly in terms of the chemistry between the leads, and some entertaining MotW episodes, but the season-long plot arcs are just deathly bad. They usually take forever to get to where you knew they were going from the beginning, and they're often pretty unimaginative. The S5 arc was actually entertaining for a change, but it also stole pretty blatantly from Good Omens to a degree that actively angered me. Meanwhile, the many, many "meta" standalone episodes have become a bit grating. It was cute at first, but it seems like every second episode is a wink to the audience at this point. And now I'm hearing there's an episode where the characters literally cross over into the "real world" and the set of their own TV show? Gurg. Enough already. It's playing less like subversiveness and more like "we've got one idea and we're going to drive it into the ground."

 

It just bothers me that this show can't give it that extra push and become unqualifiedly good, instead of "good, but". In the world of genre TV, X-Files is like the ultra-cool older sibling who's effortlessly popular, but then begins coasting on that popularity and phoning it in; Buffy is like the neurotic middle child, full of quirks, but working their ass off to get noticed and gain approval; and Supernatural is like the stoner youngest kid, filled with natural charm, but wasting their potential on the basement couch.

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post #384 of 398
3/13/11 at 10:55am



 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster View Post

I'm now caught up to the end of S5. I reiterate my frustration with this show. There's some good stuff--mostly in terms of the chemistry between the leads, and some entertaining MotW episodes, but the season-long plot arcs are just deathly bad. They usually take forever to get to where you knew they were going from the beginning, and they're often pretty unimaginative. The S5 arc was actually entertaining for a change, but it also stole pretty blatantly from Good Omens to a degree that actively angered me. Meanwhile, the many, many "meta" standalone episodes have become a bit grating. It was cute at first, but it seems like every second episode is a wink to the audience at this point. And now I'm hearing there's an episode where the characters literally cross over into the "real world" and the set of their own TV show? Gurg. Enough already. It's playing less like subversiveness and more like "we've got one idea and we're going to drive it into the ground."

 

It just bothers me that this show can't give it that extra push and become unqualifiedly good, instead of "good, but". In the world of genre TV, X-Files is like the ultra-cool older sibling who's effortlessly popular, but then begins coasting on that popularity and phoning it in; Buffy is like the neurotic middle child, full of quirks, but working their ass off to get noticed and gain approval; and Supernatural is like the stoner youngest kid, filled with natural charm, but wasting their potential on the basement couch.


I can agree with you on the season 4 arc at least. That was wildly obvious yet they tried REALLY hard to make Ruby good only to have her take the obvious route of evil. I half agree with you on the meta stuff. Although I will say season 6 crossing over into the "real world" is actually really good. Also the "we are in a book" kind of created a plot hole. Chuck can see the future and knows things before they happen yet rarely does he ever clue them in. Although they half ass explain that away with making him god.....he is god right? They do a similar thing with the time travel. You can't change things.......then you can.events happen in this odd way that doens't make a ton of sense. Like Mary knows that ona certain date a demon THAT SHE MADE A DEAL WITH is coming. Yet she makes no attempt to protect them. She doesn't tell John(even though John coincidently becomes a hunter, cute Supernatural!), she doesn't lay down saltor move the kids......nothing.

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post #385 of 398
3/12/12 at 1:10am

This fucking show! I finally caught up on it after talking with a couple of friends who write for it and it finally hitting Instant, and it's almost unfair how much this show is right in my wheelhouse. Classic rock, '67 Impala, a couple of Southernish dudes killing paranormal shit? And it's hilarious and really self-aware too. Now starting on Season 5. Love every bit of it.

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post #386 of 398
3/12/12 at 1:31am

Welcome to the club!  Never too late.  You're going to love some of the cool stuff in season 5, specifically Death.  "He doesn't have a white horse, but he does have three amigos..." Take a bit of advice though, stop after Season 5.  It's the PERFECT ending, and everything after it has been a floundering mess.

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post #387 of 398
3/12/12 at 1:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post

This fucking show! I finally caught up on it after talking with a couple of friends who write for it and it finally hitting Instant, and it's almost unfair how much this show is right in my wheelhouse. Classic rock, '67 Impala, a couple of Southernish dudes killing paranormal shit? And it's hilarious and really self-aware too. Now starting on Season 5. Love every bit of it.



Stop after 5. The subsequent seasons never happened. The attitude goes completely away.

 

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post #388 of 398
3/12/12 at 2:11am

After 5 you lose most of the rock, Dean becomes a floundering puss, Sam becomes an asshole in an uninteresting way, and that sense that the whole story was connected and building to something has been resolved, so they end up trying every single idea possible in every single direction and lose that cohesion.  Crying shame really, if they had just latched onto a Lovecraft "Old ones" story straight away it could have been amazing.  The ONLY presence that can follow up Lou is Cthulou.

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post #389 of 398
3/12/12 at 2:26am
Stop after five. It needs to be repeated, Stop after five.
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post #390 of 398
3/12/12 at 3:07am

I like this show so much I even read a tie in Novel. A tie in novel FFS :)

 

And the worst part was it wasn't too bad....

 

Oh the shame tongue.gif

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post #391 of 398
3/12/12 at 3:13am

I' m hesitant to agree, even though I solidly believe that the show SHOULD have ended after the fifth season concluded.  Th first five seasons are a superb example of long-term storytelling done right. The conclusion is near perfect, and the main characters never feel forced or stretched to fulfill the plot lines.  That all goes away after the ffth..

 

BUT... there HAVE been some good episodes since that conclusion.[*]  I tend to think of anything post five to be like a DC Comics  "What If" story.. not in the real continuity.  At least that way, the shitty overall direction of the show from six onwards doesn't ruin  what came before, wile still allowing one to enjoy the occasional brilliant episode - typically ones with heavy Edlund influence. 

 

 

[*] See: "Weekend at Bobby's"

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post #392 of 398
3/12/12 at 3:56am

Weekend At Bobbies and that one where the boys travel to our reality where Supernatural is a show.  We should just cherry pick the two or three good episodes for him.

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post #393 of 398
3/12/12 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

After 5 you lose most of the rock, Dean becomes a floundering puss, Sam becomes an asshole in an uninteresting way, and that sense that the whole story was connected and building to something has been resolved, so they end up trying every single idea possible in every single direction and lose that cohesion.  Crying shame really, if they had just latched onto a Lovecraft "Old ones" story straight away it could have been amazing.  The ONLY presence that can follow up Lou is Cthulou.



True on this. I just can't figure out why the writers all of a sudden decided to dump most of the stuff that viewers loved about the show. I know that the showrunner left, but that doesn't mean that all sense left with him. They DEFINITELY should have jumped onto the Old Ones storyline from the jump. Hell, I thought when they introduced fairies, the writers actually were planning something long-term with the Old Ones vs the fairies. Now, who knows where the writers are going.

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post #394 of 398
3/12/12 at 9:00am

There are some fucking GREAT episodes after season 5, ones that would have been all-timers if they'd shown earlier, but overall the mythology stuff drags it down.

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post #395 of 398
3/12/12 at 10:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by donde View Post



True on this. I just can't figure out why the writers all of a sudden decided to dump most of the stuff that viewers loved about the show. I know that the showrunner left, but that doesn't mean that all sense left with him. They DEFINITELY should have jumped onto the Old Ones storyline from the jump. Hell, I thought when they introduced fairies, the writers actually were planning something long-term with the Old Ones vs the fairies. Now, who knows where the writers are going.


Seriously. You bring up Lovecraft and then do nothing with it? I still can't deal with it. I was all happy. "Holy shit the Old Ones! It's going to be awesome from now on!" Instead we got a botched seance and a random demon.
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post #396 of 398
3/13/12 at 12:32pm

I've been lax on my viewing of the current season (7, right?), how is it?   I think I caught the first 3 or so episodes, and then my dvr ate the other ones that I was planning to watch later, and I just plain haven't been able to get around to watching as much serialized TV as I've wanted to lately so I've fallen bahind (same goes for Fringe this year).

 

Need to get caught up.

 

 

 

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post #397 of 398
3/13/12 at 12:48pm

The current season was weak at the beginning, but it has picked up of late.

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post #398 of 398
3/13/12 at 1:07pm

Good to hear, sounds like I will need to redouble my efforts to catch up real soon.

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