Health Care Reform Gearing Up - Page 5

To play Devil's advocate, I think thats a big thing hes concerned about. Government intervention to the degree that they are proposing will prevent the market from compensating him what he believes he is worth.

Que the standard "the free market is responsible for all the evils in the world" remarks.

Maybe because the American government CAN'T run a business?

How were the quasi-government controlled Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae doing? Oh that's right, they had to be taken over because of huge debt and mismanagement.

How is social security doing?

How is Medicare doing?

The United States government is the most wasteful, ill-managed government in the entire world. Our idiotic idea of a two party system in a three branch government barely keeps us functioning and if it weren't for the wisdom of our forefathers and their constitution we'd be Jamaica right about now.

Once again, there is a large sector that is not paying a lot for their health insurance. What they are afraid of is to lose the quality of care they have, likely provided by their employer.

I think there are good reasons for not wanting the government to run businesses, and as a general rule, nobody in the US wants to expropriate all kinds of random industries that are better served by the private sector.

I think that's a good value btw. I'm not sure what "runs alcohol" means, but I think the argument here is just what type of things are OK to have the govt. manage. Obviously Americans believe that not everything should managed by a private company, like the military, the IRS, the police, firemen, etc. The current issue is to debate if it's appropriate or not to have the govt. run health-care. I think it is, but that doesn't mean I agree government should expand in all kinds of areas, that often leads to disaster and lack of competition.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Fannie...html?x=0&.v=10

Speaking of which.

What a stupid fucking thing to say.

I remember when Alberta privatized alcohol sales. Prices went up, selection went down, and what used to be reasonably well-paying jobs turned into minimum wage student-type jobs. As the public stores closed, crowds at the remaining ones got worse because the prices were better. It's not a given that private enterprise is more efficient than government, it's just an article of faith.

I'm not paid what I believe I'm worth either. Most people aren't. Some of them are probably even right.

Don't know about that. I'm pretty sure that governments are not responsible for seeing to it that I'm paid as much as I think I should be paid, though. I can see the guy's point, but I don't think it's enough of a reason to shy away from adequate health insurance systems. And the bit about why people really want universal health care is just making stuff up.

I forgot how was the non-goverment controlled banks doing at this same time. Oh that right, they had to ask the goverment to bail them out but not to offer any of the controls that got those banks into the mess in the first place. I won't say the goverment ran Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac great, but they were about as good as the other banks apprently.

[QUOTE=DerekT;2661721 I won't say the goverment ran Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac great, but they were about as good as the other banks apprently.[/QUOTE]

Not to get into that whole thing, but youre pretty much wrong there. Next to AIG, which was pretty much ground zero for the derivative disaster, the two GSEs are in the worst shape and have needed the most handouts.

Quick preface: There was a little brouhaha at a townhall in Tampa (know anything about that Cap?)

In any event, the protest was organized mostly through Glenn Beck's 9-12 group, the membership of which is exactly like you would envision it to be. So I went to their meetup site and saw this comment that made me chuckle.

Posted on a site where people are organizing protests. Priceless.

http://www.meetup.com/tampa912/calendar/11023521/

Hahaha, I was just going to post about this.

I didn't know about the Town Hall (would have liked to go), but I'm glad I didn't because it was a fiasco. I just saw a local news report (how did you hear about it, is it national?) on it and it seems too many people attended, the room was too small and worse of all a lot of the "just say no" (really, that's their slogan) people made it into the room and wouldn't let Representative Kathy Castor speak. She left after 10 minutes apparently.

The whole thing was very suspicious, the reporter did seem to try his best to figure out if these people were from some group but most would say no. They checked license plates (he says most were local), but the first thing that I imagined was that they probably are being organized online which I think the reporter totally did not even consider. He did say they weren't being "bused in" like some people have claimed.

The anti-healthcare people were really at their most annoying. They were screaming outside "just say no", "just say no". And the ones inside were screaming to Castor "READ THE BILL". I'm totally for people voicing their complaints, I think that's good and a learning opportunity for everybody but damn this is just the equivalent of SPAM and they're doing it on purpose.

Rep. Castor said she's going to do another one but perhaps do a teleconference. I think this is a mistake, I rather they do townhalls with maybe teleconferencing but use larger spaces and kick the people who interrupt out of the room.

Thanks for the link though, I'm going to check it out. I want to go to one of these townhalls hopefully there'll be another one.

The progressive blogs have picked it up.

I don't doubt for a second that the antipathy felt by the protesters is real, but they are being organized to create an unproductive form of debate and it's going to backfire. Every time a situation like this happens, any one who conscientiously objects to the bill is going to get painted with the same fringe wingnut brush. It's why protests aren't a very good form of protest, if you get my meaning.

I joined the group so I could voice my respectful disapproval, although I suspect they'll ban me soon.

Dear yelling people screwing up town hall events,

As if anything is to be won by dragging down discourse ever more downward. At this point, it really seems like it is all about having "your team" win in some petty yelling contest on virtually any issue. Guess what guys and girls, nothing is going to stop some form of healthcare system to happen. All you can do is trying to do as much damage to the entire debate that nothing useful gets passed, and you get a clusterfuck of ideas, both good and bad, due to endless compromises between career politicans who YOU empower to put up ever more ridiculous charts and curry favors.
But, in the end, YOU have to live with that system. So even if you "win" and manage to botch the opponents teams plans, you actually lose, because you now have to live with the bad healthcare.
What you DO however, by trying to ruin public discourse or turn it into said yelling contest, is actually give away your democratic rights and power to the media who can spin the story anyway they like, and will just put everyone in their respective corner, which in turn results in yet more apathy towards politics, and means that career politicans who, in many cases, are only in it for the power, the money, the favors and their own egos, can happily ride all over you, discarding dissenting voices as baseless yelling of fringe groups, because YOU just gave them permission to.
If you got a problem, write/mail/ask your democratic representative. Vote differently. Vote intelligently. Maybe do some honorary job. If that doesnt change the way the few hundred million people in the USA behave, suck it up. If your team, excuse me, party isnt in power and your thoughts dont get heard and put into action, thats normal. Thats called being the minority in a democracry. Your team, err, party lost the election, its SUPPOSED to taste like a shit sandwich.

Newsflash: It doesnt matter which party is your team, and whose colours you paint onto your face before going to a political game, errr, rally. You dont live in one country, and the other side in theirs. There is no alternative reality of the USA where throwing as many wrenches as possible into the gears of your own political discourse is useful, rewarded or actually meaningful. If the country goes to shit under a democratic government, the Republicans didnt win. Everyone lost. If the country goes to hell during the republican term, the democrats didnt win. They just have a bigger pile of crap to deal with when its their turn again.

Sincerely,

Someone not on your team

From Detroit: Town Hall Becomes Town "Hell"

I would go to a town hall meeting, but I have this fear of being called a Nazi.

At this point, these crazy town hall meetings aren't even about health care. Sure, the mobs are armed with talking points, (many of which are various levels of untrue,) but the outrage is not at all matched by the reality of what's going on in DC. This is really about something else.

I wanted to provide what my conservative uncle told me about his views on the people who would benefit from any form of government provided health care...

"In my view you will always have the government having to take care of people who
can't or won't take care of themselves. They will always be the ones to land up in the emergency room. Do you think that just because dumb people can get a regular checkup that they will? No way. Dumb is dumb."

This is the dangerous view of hyper-individualism, that does not take into account societal, cultural and situational factors for explaining a person's behavior. And when you see someone as completely at fault for his or her actions, then why would you want to help them?

Even if this is not being discussed publicly as to why the gov't plans will not work, it is hard to not see this as an undercurrent in their thinking. I guess it's just not politically correct for "compassionate conservatives" to display their hypocrisy on the matter.

According to the CBO it offers 2 billion in savings, which is basically cost neutral, over the 10 years with the savings starting to kick in at the tail end. So short term spike in cost, with a long term savings as previously stated. This is a long term plan, as it should be for something this big.

This is also without getting into the fact that the CBO did not compute savings from a stronger preventative model that is proposed. Savings for the varies study to study, but generally speaking you save $4 dollars for every $1 you spend, not to mention the fact it improves quality of life for patients.

No show rate is 7% at our government facility. Public sector average is about 20%...

A thought occurs to me while I'm testing radios for Predators: Canadian doctors often leave to practice in the US for the money. If the standard of living for US doctors is lowered, then fewer Canadian doctors will leave Canada. I only stand to gain from Tzu's standard of living being lowered. Not that I think he's right, but if he is, hooray for me.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124958049241511735.html

Interesting article (coincidentally) in today's WSJ about some issues France may be having regarding the cost of it's health care. Despite the title, the article seems to suggest that France is the way to go, despite the fact that its obviously not going to be perfect.

And from the "You Learn Something New Every Day" files:

Didnt know that. I wonder if US physicians would be that concerned about their compensation if they didnt have hundreds of thousands of dollars of student loans to repay, and if malpractice insurance wasnt such a bitch.

Im meeting with a client whos an ER resident today. Ill be sure to ask him. Im sure youl all be sitting on pins and needles waiting for his response.

Just to interject -- in no other country do you have anything remotely resembling an intern year, racking up an 100+ hour work week. And in no other country can you rack up a six-figure dollar amount in debt after only four years of school. I'm not shitting on the medical education outside the U.S. because I've met plenty of brilliant foreign medical grads, but generally they don't work nearly as hard as their U.S. counterparts, nor do they make the personal and financial sacrifices.

To TzudoNimh's point, there *is* a problem with physician reimbursement (which I've already posted about earlier in the thread). It's not at the woe-is-me point IMO, but any health care reform which does not address the declining reimbursement rates is incomplete. The Mayo Clinic blog has already alluded to that.

I'll answer that too: no. If I didn't have to deal with the billing / malpractice aspect of medicine and just focus on my craft, which has taken me some 14 years of education to learn, I'd be stoked, even if my salary would be on the low end of the physician income scale.

So now you'll have an N of 2.

For another fun thought experiment, ask the resident if, knowing what he knows now, he would have still gone into medicine in the first place.

I already know the answer to that. He loves what he does, but at the same time he does bitch a ton. He worked in an inner city ER and deals with a load of elderly and unemployed/underemployed folks who, according to him, come in literally waiving their Medicaid cards in the air demanding to be seen first, have access to private rooms, etc. Plus all the bullshit paperwork. Of course, the man says thats just his experience and it may be different elsewhere.

I think its just another part of the entitlement mentality many citizens of our country have.

I know of at least one friend that went into medicine strictly for the money, I told him he wouldn't graduate but he proved me wrong (he did go study in Santo Domingo though). Still, I wouldn't trust him at all, I do think you have to have a vocation for this.

Almost makes you wish physician compensation went down a bit so it weeds out the greedy bastards that shouldn't be there.

Dunno about that -- I know some whose motivation for money is strictly to do with the things they really enjoy that cost alot, e.g., sailing. Of course, I also know several who live at the Mercedes/BMW/Lexus dealerships.

Here's an honest question, how does the US system accept an influx of 40 million+ new patients? The answer is simple...wait times will skyrocket. We don't have the number of doctors, PAs or nurses around to see all of those patients. There has been a serious nursing shortage for a while even without an influx of new patients. And if this passes and wait times begin to double, triple or even quadruple you can bet dollars to donuts that the angry scenes you read about now will occur times 10.

Reading this thread and following the debates themselves (within government and outside of it) have gotten me to the point where I think there is ZERO hope for our society. It's fucking depressing. Am I the only one (and those of you with no souls like Suckie and the Shogun of Charleston don't count) that feels like that?

Let's just get it over with and bring on the post-apocalyptic feudal Christian theocracy that all these town hall, birthers, teaparties, anti-commie health care free market Milton Friedman jerker offer's want so I can at least swing a battleaxe made from an old Hyundai at somebody.

You


NRA birther


I'll be the guy collecting bets... out of the fray... earning a profit (long live capitalism!)

That's as stupid an argument against health reform as any I've read (and I'm not sure that you are actually making the argument but it is one that I have seen made). More people get to see a doctor so I have to wait longer to see mine is not a valid argument.

As demand goes up, more people will move in to the field to reap the benefits. So it has always been.

There's already been points in this thread about how demand is not being filled when government caps are in place.

Now if you could throw that in with the health care package it would get my vote! We should make health coverage follow the rules of Thunderdome. Two men enter, one man leaves!

At first, maybe. In GP's offices. But these 40 million+ new patients won't always be at the doctor's at the same time, and they won't all be needing the same treatment.

Or look at it this way. If there is no wait time for, say, an MRI, that means before you show up there is a machine and probably a tech sitting idle. Now there won't be.

I expect someone will gladly wait some months for a new hip they can actually get rather than live where there are instant hip replacements they can never get.

That's assuming no new resources arise to meet the demand.

Krugman:

Social Security that comes out of our paychecks now, goes towards the retiree's today. It is wildly accepted that when we (the younger generation) retire there will be no social security benefits. We're paying into something we will never get. Interestingly enough, if you talk to anyone who is old enough to remember... it was a scam. The government KNEW the life expectancy meant the majority of people wouldn't live long enough to claim benefits. As life expectancy improved, so the marker for claiming moved.

At the same time, there is Medicare which we pay into but do not qualify for because it is designed to assist the elderly and the poor (which do not pay into it) and is wildly accepted that in the coming years, will have debts that swell well beyond our contributions causing massive deficits in the government. Deficits that are already in the trillion+ a year range, a range that is just outrageous and unsustainable from an economic standpoint. We're talking economy killing deficit levels, even if you tax the richest of rich people and corporations.

Now, here we are at a point where we are being force fed a health care reform that doesn't actually reform health care but transfer cost from private companies (that are turning a profit, thus proving successful) into a government responsibility. A government that has yet to prove it can reliably handle a program of this magnitude. If you're out shopping for health care are you going to pick the company that is massively in debt, on the verge of bankruptcy that offers you affordable health care despite the fact an independent accounting firm has claimed prices will have no choice but to go up?

I don't know a single, educated, intelligent person that would join a program from a cash strapped company that is on the verge of bankruptcy that is offering something with bad reviews and a history of mismanagement and programs that have proven unsuccessful. Yet here we are, with people in here supporting something that is exactly that. It's insanity.

Here's where the problem lies in your argument. Medicare is a losing proposition from the standpoint of the government. That is WHY IT EXISTS. For profit companies would not ensure old people because old people go to the doctor a lot and they need a lot of expensive treatment much more often. Since we, as a country, decided it was better to not let all our old people just die, we started Medicare, knowing full well there was no way to make it break even.

Meanwhile, you are saying that we know insurance companies are successful based solely on the fact that they are turning a profit. But just because the insurance companies are succeeding at meeting the needs of their shareholders does not mean they are succeeding at meeting the needs of their individual policy holders or the people that, for one reason or another, can't become policy holders either because they can't afford it or are in another high risk group.

...

I don't know how to feel about healthcare "reform". The US government doesn't care about the people, for them it's an agenda that's 'long-over-do'.

On the other hand, there are neo conservatives that still listen to Ronald Reagan speak of the horrors of socialized medicine, while drinking wine from a box.

Our healthcare system IS fucked, though. My wife lost her job, as well as her employee-based insurance, and the only way that she can recieve medicaid is by telling the government that we're sepearated... she's also six-months pregnant.

I'm a paramedic and I know first hand that hospitals WILL refuse care, especially a non county-run medical facility. One of the local hospitals dumped an invalid on the street and called his family to come pick him up.

Just received my marching orders;

The biggest issue with all of this, honestly, is that the administration has framed this as an issue of cost control, without actually addressing costs. And without that, without being able to decisively tell Americans that this bill—whichever they settle upon—will lead to affordable healthcare, they leave themselves in an indefensible position.

Attacks from the left for not pushing for a single payer system, attacks from the right for not controlling costs... honestly, I can’t tell if this is pragmatic or feckless.

Hysterical.

“People such as scientist Stephen Hawking wouldn’t have a chance in the U.K., where the National Health Service would say the life of this brilliant man, because of his physical handicaps, is essentially worthless.” - Investor's Business Daily

I'll give a cookie to the first person to identify the flaw in this argument without clicking the link below. Honor system people.

http://yglesias.thinkprogress.org/ar...-of-a-life.php

He's *from the UK* which has far more "liberal" govt. health care and is alive?

I thought maybe they were trying to say that the Obama's plan is even more radical than that in the UK? Then I read the article. :-/

I'm at a loss for words when I see half ass Eugenics analogies thrown about.

Who in their right fucking mind believes this shit? If you needed any further proof that the big money is scared shitless right now of a health care system that works and benefits all of our citizenry look no further than the propaganda being spouted from every tainted orifice.

I assume all these people who are railing against a single payer system are also in favor of abolishing Medicare, which is a single payer system.