Health Care Reform Gearing Up - Page 6

That fucker wore that for one reason: Intimidation.

Anyone else watching the town hall right now? I've got it streaming here at work, and so far it's been pretty civil.

The sign he was carrying certainly helped.

This just in from CNN: Obama does not support pulling the plug on Grandma.

I see a cogent anti-healthcare argument was left at some Congressman's office in the night.



You have to admit, he has a point.

As for the security blanket, can't you wrestle its owner to the ground and take it on the grounds that you felt threatened? I understand American self-defense laws lean heavily in favour of the victim. I wouldn't trust anyone in a right-wing mob with a gun.

All of this will end in tears...

But if you support me in my bloodless coup to become emperor, I promise cushy government sinecures, attendant titles such as viscount, marquis, baron and duke, and totally free health care!

Saw a link to a column by Chuck Norris -- yes, THAT Chuck Norris -- bemoaning Obama's plan to have the government knock down your door and tell you how to raise your kids. Of course, nowhere in this piece was any specific reference to the actual part of the bill that states this ability, but dammit, CHUCK NORRIS said it, so of course the comments were a sight to behold.

It's times like these when I wish he'd never escaped that god damn prisoner of war camp.

It's times like these when I wish Bruce Lee had kicked him even harder.

Of course it wasn't. But this is the age of the internet, who in their right mind reads all the way to the 4th paragraph?

Here's the link I saw, it went directly to the second page of the article.

Anyway, nothing in that language states that these visits are mandatory and that any parent is bound by what the advisers tell them.

In all fairness, it could have been added by a Republican.

--

ETA.

I can see the problem with something like this. Who determines that they go to your house? If a child fails at school, do they prioritize that household? If a child is caught by a truant officer for ditching school? or how about if a concerned neighbor who is upset because your kids are running through their grass, can they call up and have people come out to teach you how to parent your child?

Now, what happens if you refuse their help? Does the government 'parent' decree that child protective services should come out and pay you a visit?

It's all towards the worst case scenario spectrum but, not unbelievable.

So you readily admit to being half informed?

Not to begin a pissing a contest but the post above does illustrate the portion of the article where the bill is reflected as saying that states will effectively have to identify parents who shouldn't have procreated.

Regardless of all that doesn't the thought of anything remotely close to the government telling anyone how to parent seem odd at all to you?

Sorry Snaieke, there may be enough letters in that highlighted part to spell "This is mandatory", but it sure doesn't mean that. "Identify and prioritize" could mean nothing more than sending information to those who are identified as high need candidates that this program would benefit them.

Anyone who starts screaming and yelling at one of these town hall meetings should be escorted out and fined. You cannot have a civil discussion when someone is screaming and yelling, interrupting those around them.

This country is filled with too many motherfuckers that think the loudest person in the argument is the winner. Fuck you and I hope you get cancer of the asshole.

What exactly is wrong with educating expecting parents on child behavior and giving them some parenting skills? No one says you MUST do what they teach you, it's just a suggestion. Too many young parents have no fucking clue what raising a child entails, so someone giving them some pointers MIGHT be a good idea.

You are making the slippery slope argument in here, which is most definitely a ridiculous side to take.

"Who decides when you get visited? If you don't do what they tell you, will they take your kid? I DON'T KNOW, BUT I WILL ASSUME THAT THEY DO!!!!!"

I've been staring at this thread ever since i signed up, but the way the debate is currently playing out has me so physcially sick to my stomach, i just cannot bring myself to write much of anything about it beyond "stupid americans get what they deserve". i am so truely frightened by the crazy rednecks turning out at these town halls, the "nazi" allegations, etc... i really worry about where all this is leading


part of me feels "well if america is so stupid they'll believe these vile lies, then they deserve the (non existant) health care they get" but then the other part of me feels "why should i be punished for havign to share a country with people who just cannot be bothered to look up the difference between their ass and their elbow?"

i dont know what the answer is to get past all these idiot fools and their corporate driven agenda, all i know is sarah palin's repulsive inventions (obama wants to kill her retarded baby.. oh wait, sorry , his "DEATH PANEL" wants to kill her baby) make me feel like the "patriotism" organ inside my chest has a tumor (and this after obama gave me an emergency patriotism transplant last november)

Since it so physically pains me to talk about this, i'll just direct you over to this weeks New Rules from Real Time with Bill Maher

try and watch this and not hate america (if only just a tiny wee bit) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BOZJALcl40

There's another board I frequent where the repeated refrain is "If this health care system is so great, why doesn't Congress agree to use it?" Yes, let's prove the worth of a system to provide health insurance for people who DON'T have it by using it for people who already do. Of course, the discussion devolves into a debate about why Congress has all these perks that we don't, which sure matters to someone dying at home because they can't afford to go to the hospital.

Could means you don't know, neither do I. While you may think optimistic and flowery thoughts, I'll assume that the government employ human beings who are prone to error and lapse in judgment and basic emotional responses. I can't for the life of me rationalize how someone or anyone who would bemoan the last 8 years of expansive government powers and intrusions (read: patriot act et all) can just casually dismiss something as intrusive as infringing on parental rights or responsibilities. You do realize that Democrats will lose control eventually and be replaced by Republicans, right? This shouldn't be a left or right thing, this should be a common sense thing.

Re-read what I wrote again. I questioned who would send them out to the house and what criteria would warrant such attention. I even questioned what would happen if the 'help' was refused. These are fundamental questions anyone should be asking whenever a program is implemented from a government.

Wait a minute, we're talking about an article written by CHUCK NORRIS?

Man, my head is going to explode. This whole discussion is so unbelievably stupid, yet malicious and selfish. Lost is the mess that is the current system, lost is the fact that we already have for profit corporate "death panels", lost is the fact that you won't get care for pre-existing conditions and lost is the fact that a good chunk of us would be screwed if we lost our job and our job sponsored health care.

And we're talking about this BS???

It just makes me hate Americans, not America.

I'm watching CNN where complaints are being given about how not enough Republicans were let into President Obama's town hall meeting. Wasn't Bush doing essentially the same thing with Democrats when he was in office?

Well when the Republicans who do show up bring fucking GUNS to a townhall with the president of the United States attending, I'd let them stay outside as well.

You're assuming the advisers will be sent in like stormtroopers with marching orders in hand. I'm assuming they will only be sent if asked to by parents. Which viewpoint matches what we've seen and heard from Obama so far?

Pretty good read, sums up how I feel about all this. http://mobile.salon.com/opinion/pagl...12/town_halls/

So the GOP was in power for 8 years, with a significant period of that in control of all three branches, and they fucked it up royally. The country elects a Democrat and all of a sudden it's fucking NAZIs and motherfuckers starting fights & tagging Congressmen's offices with swastikas. Really? The political dialog is disintegrating and shredding in epic fashion. Too much shame.

Slippery Slope is the Correct Position to Take!

That's a pithy retort. Unfortunately it lacks much intelligent insight. Why is the slippery slope argument "most definitely a ridiculous side to take" and what evidence do you have to cite in defense of that position? Are we supposed to blindly trust the government with matters that are so important? Why?

We live in a country that has a history that suggests NOT concerning yourself with the slippery slope is naive and uninformed. Study the case of poor uneducated sharecroppers who were happy to accept free health care only to be used as human lab rats. The case is known as the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment. You could also read up on Buck vs Bell in which the US Supreme Court upheld a Virginia eugenics sterilazation law that saw Virginia forcibly sterilized about 7,450 people under the banner of eugenics. And Virginia was one of 33 states that particiapted in such practices. The practice continued in Virginia until 1979! That's right, here in the good ole' USA we were participating in selective Human breeding and Social Engineering during my lifetime! Oh, the best part is the Buck vs Bell precedent (allows for forced sterilization of "feebleminded") has never been overruled!

No, I'm afraid the evidence supporting skepticism far outweighs whatever brand of sunshine and moonbeams Obama is marketing!

As I've seen the idea discussed, the question is intended to highlight the fact that the elites who are perfectly willing to mandate this or that for you and me will never allow themselves to actually live under those same circumstances. Congress exempts themselves from many of the very laws and regulations that they promise will make the rest of our lives better, so it is fair and reasonable to question their motives.

Oh please.

Please point out the fucking sunshine and moonbeams in this particular piece of legislation. The language in the legislation is anything but sunshine and moonbeams. It is so detailed and technical that we have people complaining that it should be written at the Junior High School level so that people can understand it, as if writing it in such vague terms wasn't what leads to "slippery slope" arguments to begin with.

Chief among the fallacious arguments listed, which Norris actually mentions himself, is that Section 440 does not detail a federal program, it mentions creation of a grant authorizing body for state programs. I.E. States conduct voluntary home visitations and the feds reimburse them.

You may have noticed the key word there... voluntary. Right there in subsection (a). Wait, I'll quote it in full and then provide a link to the legislation something Mr. Norris failed to provide because actually reading the damn section gives up the lie.

Emphasis mine.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/...9qf94:e989766:

Read the damn section and please point out to me where people's rights are being suspended.

Searching this section of the legislation or the key terms in it leads to a bevy of right wing forums and blogs at the moment, most linking to the Norris piece. But if you dig back a bit, you'll find this piece.

http://www.womenspolicy.org/site/New...rticle&id=9207

What's nice about that piece is that it presents the rational arguments for (the programs can help) and against (it provides incentives to create programs states might otherwise not want because the money is specifically authorized for those programs) without resorting to comparisons between this law and Stalin's Soviet Union.

Remember, Chuck Norris' tears may cure cancer, but he never cries. So until he's willing to shed a few, maybe he should just stay out of the healthcare debate.

If you already have health insurance, this proposal has nothing to do with you. Bringing up Congress' health benefits does nothing but shift the argument away from the actual issue to "Them damn elitists in Washington!"

Isn't using a term like "the elites" in a non-ironic fashion in a discussion like this a bit like throwing around terms like 'socialist' or 'nazi' with a straight face in that it automatically excludes you from being taken at all seriously as a logical rational human being in any way shape or form?

Americans are seriously the most paranoid people in the whole world.

"Let's pass a law so that people cannot hoard dozens pf AK's and trunks full of ammo."
"They're taking our guns so we can't resist their death squads! Ruby Ridge! Waco!"

"Let's try reforming our broken ass health care."
"Forced euthanasia! Mandatory abortions! Death panels!"

"Some vague statement about some form of visitation program for some uspecified category of families."
"They'll take my babies!"

All the while a chorus of cries about socialism, nazism, communism and atheism wails in the background. And ignoring all the other countries in the world, many of them happier, safer, more harmonious and freer than the US, where these things have been working successfully for decades.

Wait, Obamacare will give me syphilis? Shit, thanks for clearing that up. Good to know.

The perpetual fear of the 'slippery slope' is a universal thing - the center cannot hold and all that. American fuckups loom larger in the historical context because we have a blueprint that, in theory, should help us avoid making these mistakes (except for slavery, rooted as it is in the root nerve of American schizophrenia). Drawing a line from the Tuskegee airmen to the legislation at hand is hysterical.

I grow weary of this mentality. Comparitively, if you're middle class in America you are the elite. You're so far away and removed from the standard of living for the rest of the planet its crazy. I guess this means we can't develop any sort of coherent foreign policy because we don't actually live in foreign conditions. Actually, that makes sense . . . nevermind.

ftfy.

Looking at the news reports, these town halls aren't such a good idea, for a simple reason: the dems underestimated the power of stupid people in large groups. And apparently all the retards are coming out of the woodworks now.

Villfying the competition before you even open shop.

I wish the focus group driven change of wording could be classified as Newspeak so that I could further pigeonhole people's notions of me.

Double standards all around.

Excuse me, but I never thought for a second that the Code Pink ladies were anything other than an outlier group, and Cindy Sheehan is just as much of a rabble-rouser as these fucktards at the town halls, although to be fair to her she lost her son in Iraq and it was probably the only way she could deal with her grief. I didn't agree with the war either, but I didn't take to the streets. It was obvious at the time that the majority of Americans supported the war in the early years and although most liberals disagreed most of us didn't take to the streets. It's the vocal fringe of both sides that do that sort of thing - most of us have jobs and families and lives that we have to tend to.

That said, I take this healthcare battle very, very personally. I'm not going to get into it here, and I'm sure many other Americans have similar stories of horror in the healthcare system, but I see these idiots on television and it's all I can do to keep from screaming at the screen. They have no idea how much the healthcare system in this country has devastated families. All with a bureaucrat's grin and a swoop of a pen. I can't vote out a CEO of an insurance company. And when the right has birthers and Obama/Hitler signs speaking for them? I would have came if a car plowed into all those people yesterday, at least to make room for real intelligent opposition. I got no problem with intelligent discourse. But when people yell out "death panels" and fascism... these people shouldn't be mowing my lawn, much less entering a complicated and difficult debate. I have no sympathy for someone who yells out "Get government out of my Medicare!" Some people are too fucking stupid to share my atmosphere.

Jesus Christ

That's the first time I've seen a free for everyone health care system been called evil.

What a load of unmitigated bollocks, has anyone here seen those adverts about the NHS? Seriously, can't the NHS sue these people?

They do NOT just let old people die because they aren't worth treating. The NHS is not perfect but everyone, even foreigners, can go to any hospital and be treated. The National Insurance taken out of my wage slip is miniscule compared to the care I'd receive if I was taken ill.

more like astroderping ammirite

You can debate all the details and technicalities you want I guess but all of that is futile if the media does not do their job.

How the fuck is it possible that high level politicans can spew all those straight lies, falsehoods and outrageous accusations like "Hitler!" or "death panel" without being put down by these guys called journalists and being laughed out of the public arena for being either evil propagandists Göbbels would have been proud about or just retarded idiots. This stuff should be on the Fringe chanel but not on the news.

But if this is the level at which apparently most people get their informations you are plainly fucked as a country.

The Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy had this all figured out years ago

All the media is going to do is spend time discussing the controversies, and the scare tactics shit, instead of trying to create an honest dialog about Point A being bad because of XYZ and Point B being good because of XYZ. Ratings are king! So your second statement, on the money Jan.

When people were outraged at Bush, it was because they felt he was waging an unjustified war of aggression for no good reason other than the barest hint of suspicion that Saddam maybe might be getting close to almost having WMDs. People were dying over false information and Bush's distorted world view.

People are outraged at Obama because he wants to give people health care.

Oh yeah, the two are equivalent.

Leave it to one libertarian to suck off the other, thus missing the entire point.

My God. We're using Buck v Bell in the case AGAINST health care?

This thread has now officially become a sinking ship. Lash the dead white people together to make a raft and I'll lead the survivors to shore.