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Health Care Reform Gearing Up - Page 7

post #301 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
When people were outraged at Bush, it was because they felt he was waging an unjustified war of aggression for no good reason other than the barest hint of suspicion that Saddam maybe might be getting close to almost having WMDs. People were dying over false information and Bush's distorted world view.

People are outraged at Obama because he wants to give people health care.

Oh yeah, the two are equivalent.
To be fair, these folks see Obama's world view as relatively distorted as well.

Im not saying theyre right...Im just saying thats what they think.

Some folks Ive talked to who oppose this plan (yet they are not racists and quite intelligent, by the way) just think were barking up the wrong tree. They figure that the AMA, HMOs, and the government have created an environment which drives medical costs through the roof. They dont see real competition in the medical industry, which means there is little incentive to control medical costs and even less to increase the quality of care. I remember at the beginning of Sicko there was an audio clip of Nixon talking about this very thing (HMOs and driving costs up).

They want everyone to have access to awesome yet affordable health care...they just think this is the wrong way to go about it.
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post #302 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
They want everyone to have access to awesome yet affordable health care...they just think this is the wrong way to go about it.
Their response certainly hasn't been proportional.
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post #303 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
My God. We're using Buck v Bell in the case AGAINST health care?
I don't know how I missed that, but: fucking lol.
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post #304 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:13pm
So let's deregulate! Gee whiz that works wonders now doesn't it.

I wish I could live in this fancy dream world were companies sole motivating factor wasn't profit.
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post #305 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Their response certainly hasn't been proportional.
Also, this. Nobody who opposes these measures is going to these townhall meetings and saying "In the interest of civil discourse, please hear me out. I don't like the idea for these following reasons...".

They're hopping around howling about socialism and Nazism and fascism and killing Grandma and the dog and maybe even lil' ol' Trig Palin. It's like taking part in a dinnertime debate with your family members, but instead of even bothering to make a point you just shit your pants and start screaming uncontrollably at the top of your lungs.
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post #306 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Their response certainly hasn't been proportional.
I dont get it.

Maybe I havent been paying attention, but the only responses Ive been seeing are from retards throwing temper tantrums at town hall meetings when they dont even have a basic understanding of what theyre talking about.

Are the folks who oppose this plan yet exhibit rational thought and provide intelligent counterarguments required to show up at these town halls to speak their mind?
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post #307 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake View Post
Also, this. Nobody who opposes these measures is going to these townhall meetings and saying "In the interest of civil discourse, please hear me out. I don't like the idea for these following reasons...".

They're hopping around howling about socialism and Nazism and fascism and killing Grandma and the dog and maybe even lil' ol' Trig Palin. It's like taking part in a dinnertime debate with your family members, but instead of even bothering to make a point you just shit your pants and start screaming uncontrollably at the top of your lungs.
No, theyre not being productive at all. I wasnt referring to people who are crashing these town halls. I was referring to people who oppose the plan for seemingly valid reasons, yet also have better things to do than to drive somewhere just to act like a two year old in public.
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post #308 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Are the folks who oppose this plan yet exhibit rational thought and provide intelligent counterarguments required to show up at these town halls to speak their mind?
Do they want their points to be taken seriously? Then they need to get involved and stop the idiots from dictating the argument.
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post #309 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
Do they want their points to be taken seriously? Then they need to get involved and stop the idiots from dictating the argument.
Many people I know (which isnt necessarily a large representative sample) have already written their representatives with their concerns.

I dont really see much more they can do. I guess they could drive two towns over and protest against the protesters (who already are engaged in a protesting match with those who support the various bills) creating some sort of 3-way super protest. I just think that would be a waste of time.
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post #310 of 2590
8/12/09 at 12:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

The difference here is that the Code Pink girls were actually (and rightly) protesting policy whereas the silly right wingers are just whining about Obama because he's not a Republican. You can tell by the stupid, stupid arguments being made by the right. They aren't there to protest, they're there to spread misinformation, or call Obama a Nazi as a result of believing that disinformation.
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post #311 of 2590
8/12/09 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
So let's deregulate! Gee whiz that works wonders now doesn't it.
Government intervention in the drug approval process, AMA monopolization of medical services, government intervention on the coverage plans have to provide, etc.

Much like with the banks, we shouldnt be looking at more regulation...just better regulation.
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post #312 of 2590
8/12/09 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Government intervention in the drug approval process, AMA monopolization of medical services, government intervention on the coverage plans have to provide, etc.

Much like with the banks, we shouldnt be looking at more regulation...just better regulation.
Why exactly should the AMA monopolize medical services?
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post #313 of 2590
8/12/09 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankypanky View Post
Oh please.
Thanks for your valid view point.
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post #314 of 2590
8/12/09 at 3:05pm
I think it's a waste of time to rationalize morons that used to disrupt meetings on either side, of course you are going to sympathize with some more than others.

The "didn't they complain about this" arguments are so annoying because you flip the situation and the other side ask the same. I care more about the now.

These stupid mobs of morons have got to stop, and I sure hope we're arresting some of the people who infringe on my rights to ask questions about this. Talk about disrupting the peace, if you can get arrested for being obnoxious to a cop, you should be arrested for hijacking a meeting in such a fashion.

And BTW, there are people who are honestly opposed to this but are not shouting drones, but you don't hear from them because that doesn't generate news. Please don't fall on the trap of generalizing this.
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post #315 of 2590
8/12/09 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Government intervention in the drug approval process, AMA monopolization of medical services, government intervention on the coverage plans have to provide, etc.

Much like with the banks, we shouldnt be looking at more regulation...just better regulation.
I know..jumping to conclusions and all that. But do you honestly think that the vast majority of the opponents to these proposals want any regulation at all? I'm not talking about the people being used as tools in all this-those being stoked and roused to "action" in this debate.

I keep fighting this fight over and over again: Human considerations and morality take a backseat (assuming they're even in this runaway car at all) to the dollars and cents.
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post #316 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pervis42 View Post
Why exactly should the AMA monopolize medical services?
Should or shouldnt?

The above is what is happening now, and may be some things that require taking a closer look at. Perhaps salvation lies in fixing a bunch of small problems instead of taking on one large one.
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post #317 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Perhaps salvation lies in fixing a bunch of small problems instead of taking on one large one.
I'm reporting you to the fishy information desk at the WH.
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post #318 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:24pm
Do you refer to the real one that will be used to answer questions that arise from right-wing email disinformation campaigns? Or the imaginary one that the Republicans pretend is in place to allow the Democrats to formulate a so-called enemies list? Judging from your tone, I'd guess it's the imaginary one dreamed up by the cowardly right.

But I could be wrong.
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post #319 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
I know..jumping to conclusions and all that. But do you honestly think that the vast majority of the opponents to these proposals want any regulation at all? I'm not talking about the people being used as tools in all this-those being stoked and roused to "action" in this debate.
Vast majority Im not sure of. Im sure that a great deal of people understand the need for various forms of regulation (whereas others are, obviously, just repeating what they hear on the tee vee) but its hard to swallow that, in this day and age coming off of the two years this country as had, the term "regulation" would come off as the end of the world to someone like John Q Public.

Which brings up something else we can talk about. IMO Obama is doing a horrible job of selling this thing. Now take it for what its worth as this is coming from someone who doesnt really like a lot of the plan proposed so far yet desires universal coverage, but its really shocking. Generalities and blanket statements may have won him the election, but its obvious the guy is probably going to have to spend more time breaking things down (costs, benefits, etc)...especially when you have the CBO report plastered everywhere alluding to the idea that perhaps this isnt the best thing since sliced bread from a cost vs benefit standpoint.

You cant turn on the TV or pick up a paper today without hearing/reading something regarding how the economy is improving and the recession is pretty much over. Continuing to simply say "we need this to fix our economy" obviously isnt going to get the job done.
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post #320 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun View Post
Do you refer to the real one that will be used to answer questions that arise from right-wing email disinformation campaigns? Or the imaginary one that the Republicans pretend is in place to allow the Democrats to formulate a so-called enemies list? Judging from your tone, I'd guess it's the imaginary one dreamed up by the cowardly right.

But I could be wrong.
You gotta admit it was kinda funny though.
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post #321 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:29pm
I don't get why he's tying fixing health care with fixing the economy. Seems to me fixing health care for its own sake should be enough.
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post #322 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
I don't get why he's tying fixing health care with fixing the economy. Seems to me fixing health care for its own sake should be enough.
I could see why he would think it would be easier to sell (especially to those who may be idealogically opposed)...hence the bullshit about needing to pass this before the recess. As the economy improves and more and more people realize that, hes definately going to have to change his tune when Congress decides to get back...er...show up to work.
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post #323 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
It just makes me hate Americans, not America.
i know what youre saying, and i agree in that i do not hate the bill of rights, or the idea all men are created equal. however, a country is a living breathing changing thing, and ours is quickly changing into a nation of mouth breathers. its difficult to seperate my love of american ideals from my disgust with the barely self aware blobs that pour into megachurches every sunday. in a way, isnt america as much the people who live there, as the words in the constitution? i dont know, i just know i'm pissed off
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post #324 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:52pm
Out of curiosity, I wandered over to Free Republic to see what was going on over there.

I've really got to get my curiosity fixed.

Did you know the Obama plan is nothing less than an organized method of killing the elderly?
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post #325 of 2590
8/12/09 at 4:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post

Did you know the Obama plan is nothing less than an organized method of killing the elderly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer
Now take it for what its worth as this is coming from someone who doesnt really like a lot of the plan proposed so far yet desires universal coverage, but its really shocking.
What else did you think I was referring to?
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post #326 of 2590
8/12/09 at 5:45pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
i know what youre saying, and i agree in that i do not hate the bill of rights, or the idea all men are created equal. however, a country is a living breathing changing thing, and ours is quickly changing into a nation of mouth breathers. its difficult to seperate my love of american ideals from my disgust with the barely self aware blobs that pour into megachurches every sunday. in a way, isnt america as much the people who live there, as the words in the constitution? i dont know, i just know i'm pissed off
Like grammar, spelling and punctuation? This isn't a text message board or Twitter you twat.
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post #327 of 2590
8/12/09 at 5:52pm
Jesus, what the fuck was that about?
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post #328 of 2590
8/12/09 at 5:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Like grammar, spelling and punctuation? This isn't a text message board or Twitter you twat.
i cannot get the board spellchecker to work with my internet explorer
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post #329 of 2590
8/12/09 at 5:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Jesus, what the fuck was that about?
Tzu hates women, I'd guess.
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post #330 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
Jesus, what the fuck was that about?
Generalized disdain for poor education application combined with specific irritability towards blather combined with a new link I wanted to share.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post
Tzu hates women, I'd guess.
Only women who want single payer abortions on demand.
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post #331 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

Only women who want single payer abortions on demand.
Who in the fuck is asking for this? You misogynistic fuck.
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post #332 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:06pm
Tzu is now officially the greatest poster on these forums, narrowly exceeding the one we know as duke fleed.

Bow to him as you would bow to Zod.
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post #333 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
Who in the fuck is asking for this? You misogynistic fuck.
I may be way off base, but Im pretty sure the guy isnt serious.
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post #334 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
i cannot get the board spellchecker to work with my internet explorer
At least you try to use it. I sometimes get embarassed when I go back and read something I posted via my iPhone.
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post #335 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:18pm
This is not a message board?
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post #336 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
This is not a message board?
"Text" message board. As in typed with your thumbs.
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post #337 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
I may be way off base, but Im pretty sure the guy isnt serious.
I don't care either way. It's not funny. It's fucking hateful.
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post #338 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:29pm
If he was serious I would see how you would feel that way. If you know hes not serious at all then theres no point in getting worked up over it.

Well, Im going to try to break this tension by mentioning how hilarious I find the fact that 7 out of 10 times Ive logged in here this week, there has been an Ann Coulter banner at the top of the page compelling me to buy her book.
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post #339 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:32pm
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post #340 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
At least you try to use it. I sometimes get embarassed when I go back and read something I posted via my iPhone.
i know, i can use spellcheck without any special program when i am on safari at home. the stuff i type on my ipod touch though... i've had it since my B-DAY and still have not really mastered typing. the touch screen is great for pretty much everything but typing words.
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post #341 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:40pm
Ugh. So the GOP decides to go all in with the death panel smear. I thought the Daily Show's eviscerating of that talking point would pretty much end it, but apparently not. Looks like the GOP is dropping the pretense of trying to make good policy (from their perspective) and instead making health care almost entirely about electoral politics. Good job!
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post #342 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:51pm
The sad thing is that their tactics seem to be working.

This is starting to become an epic failure by the administration, fairly or unfairly they're getting their asses kicked on the information side of the equation and have yet to figure out a way to correct course.
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post #343 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus View Post
Ugh. So the GOP decides to go all in with the death panel smear. I thought the Daily Show's eviscerating of that talking point would pretty much end it, but apparently not. Looks like the GOP is dropping the pretense of trying to make good policy (from their perspective) and instead making health care almost entirely about electoral politics. Good job!
you thought that an expose exposing a despicable lie the GOP shown on a television program that caters to already well educated well informed democrats would cause the GOP to cease a tactic that is aimed at poorly informed redneck dolts who do not watch the daily show?

if only jon stewart had that much power. maybe when cnn, fox news, and every local tv and radio station does the same expose, then you'll see the Grumpy Old People party change their tune
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post #344 of 2590
8/12/09 at 6:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
The sad thing is that their tactics seem to be working.

This is starting to become an epic failure by the administration, fairly or unfairly they're getting their asses kicked on the information side of the equation and have yet to figure out a way to correct course.
It's a serious problem, because they have the bullhorn. And frankly, refuting these claims has all the drama of sorting socks. It sounds stupid, but they have to figure out a way to crack all the policy wonk stuff and make it interesting and easy to explain. That's a much more difficult thing to do than to scream "Nazi" at the top of your lungs.
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post #345 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny View Post
It's a serious problem, because they have the bullhorn. And frankly, refuting these claims has all the drama of sorting socks. It sounds stupid, but they have to figure out a way to crack all the policy wonk stuff and make it interesting and easy to explain. That's a much more difficult thing to do than to scream "Nazi" at the top of your lungs.
i say the president has a public rally in nyc or something, 100 thousand people, and says that right now people who are not patriots are trying to scare your grandmother. they are trying to cheat you out of health care through fear, and you can either lay down and take it and basically give up on america , or you can get off your butt and make your voice heard. "if YOU do not tell your friends and everyone you know the truth, if YOU do not spend your weekends volunteering, etc, to get this done, get out of america. you can either cling to the past or fight for the future, and if youre going to cling, just shut up and sit down, because america needs to get down to buisness". he can put the fear of the voter into those who dare mess with him. he is being far too nice and and wonky. forget policy, the right has shown no matter what you propose, they'll Fing lie about it. you need to get out there and kick ass, and threaten those politicians who want to stall his agenda. "you know what air force one sounds like NOT landing at your campaign event in 2010?" "hell yes, i dont care if i am a one term president but i'll make sure i support a primary challenge against you and make sure you come down with me"

we need balls.

and of course have john favreau put the magic touch to the words
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post #346 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:14pm
http://www.counterpunch.org/wise08112009.html
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post #347 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
The sad thing is that their tactics seem to be working.

This is starting to become an epic failure by the administration, fairly or unfairly they're getting their asses kicked on the information side of the equation and have yet to figure out a way to correct course.
Of course its unfair. Fairness may not have any relevance, but it certainly isn't fair. I mean, one side has to build a working rocketship. The other side just has to come over and set it on fire.
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post #348 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
i say the president has a public rally in nyc or something, 100 thousand people, and says that right now people who are not patriots are trying to scare your grandmother. they are trying to cheat you out of health care through fear, and you can either lay down and take it and basically give up on america , or you can get off your butt and make your voice heard. "if YOU do not tell your friends and everyone you know the truth, if YOU do not spend your weekends volunteering, etc, to get this done, get out of america. you can either cling to the past or fight for the future, and if youre going to cling, just shut up and sit down, because america needs to get down to buisness". he can put the fear of the voter into those who dare mess with him. he is being far too nice and and wonky. forget policy, the right has shown no matter what you propose, they'll Fing lie about it. you need to get out there and kick ass, and threaten those politicians who want to stall his agenda. "you know what air force one sounds like NOT landing at your campaign event in 2010?" "hell yes, i dont care if i am a one term president but i'll make sure i support a primary challenge against you and make sure you come down with me"

we need balls.

and of course have john favreau put the magic touch to the words
hahahaha.
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post #349 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:29pm
I didn't express it well, but I meant that more on the perception that the White House is "getting their asses kicked". I guess some people could say it's not their fault that the communication of the program to the public is failing, it is in my view.
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post #350 of 2590
8/12/09 at 7:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
hahahaha.
you think its funny? i say 100 000 person rallies etc are the only way to fight back against "obama wants to have his nazi death pannel kill my retarded baby!". when the other side doesnt care about facts, you find something they CANT lie about, 100 000 people in the streets demanding health care.
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