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The Cap and Trade Bill

post #1 of 61
Thread Starter 
Why isn't anyone in here talking about this? It sounds like it will make the Health Care reform attempts seem like a drop in the bucket....

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124588837560750781.html

From the Wall Street Journal:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has put cap-and-trade legislation on a forced march through the House, and the bill may get a full vote as early as Friday. It looks as if the Democrats will have to destroy the discipline of economics to get it done.

Despite House Energy and Commerce Chairman Henry Waxman's many payoffs to Members, rural and Blue Dog Democrats remain wary of voting for a bill that will impose crushing costs on their home-district businesses and consumers. The leadership's solution to this problem is to simply claim the bill defies the laws of economics.

Their gambit got a boost this week, when the Congressional Budget Office did an analysis of what has come to be known as the Waxman-Markey bill. According to the CBO, the climate legislation would cost the average household only $175 a year by 2020. Edward Markey, Mr. Waxman's co-author, instantly set to crowing that the cost of upending the entire energy economy would be no more than a postage stamp a day for the average household. Amazing. A closer look at the CBO analysis finds that it contains so many caveats as to render it useless.
[Review & Outlook] Associated Press

Henry Waxman

For starters, the CBO estimate is a one-year snapshot of taxes that will extend to infinity. Under a cap-and-trade system, government sets a cap on the total amount of carbon that can be emitted nationally; companies then buy or sell permits to emit CO2. The cap gets cranked down over time to reduce total carbon emissions.

To get support for his bill, Mr. Waxman was forced to water down the cap in early years to please rural Democrats, and then severely ratchet it up in later years to please liberal Democrats. The CBO's analysis looks solely at the year 2020, before most of the tough restrictions kick in. As the cap is tightened and companies are stripped of initial opportunities to "offset" their emissions, the price of permits will skyrocket beyond the CBO estimate of $28 per ton of carbon. The corporate costs of buying these expensive permits will be passed to consumers.

The biggest doozy in the CBO analysis was its extraordinary decision to look only at the day-to-day costs of operating a trading program, rather than the wider consequences energy restriction would have on the economy. The CBO acknowledges this in a footnote: "The resource cost does not indicate the potential decrease in gross domestic product (GDP) that could result from the cap."

The hit to GDP is the real threat in this bill. The whole point of cap and trade is to hike the price of electricity and gas so that Americans will use less. These higher prices will show up not just in electricity bills or at the gas station but in every manufactured good, from food to cars. Consumers will cut back on spending, which in turn will cut back on production, which results in fewer jobs created or higher unemployment. Some companies will instead move their operations overseas, with the same result.

When the Heritage Foundation did its analysis of Waxman-Markey, it broadly compared the economy with and without the carbon tax. Under this more comprehensive scenario, it found Waxman-Markey would cost the economy $161 billion in 2020, which is $1,870 for a family of four. As the bill's restrictions kick in, that number rises to $6,800 for a family of four by 2035.

Note also that the CBO analysis is an average for the country as a whole. It doesn't take into account the fact that certain regions and populations will be more severely hit than others -- manufacturing states more than service states; coal producing states more than states that rely on hydro or natural gas. Low-income Americans, who devote more of their disposable income to energy, have more to lose than high-income families.

Even as Democrats have promised that this cap-and-trade legislation won't pinch wallets, behind the scenes they've acknowledged the energy price tsunami that is coming. During the brief few days in which the bill was debated in the House Energy Committee, Republicans offered three amendments: one to suspend the program if gas hit $5 a gallon; one to suspend the program if electricity prices rose 10% over 2009; and one to suspend the program if unemployment rates hit 15%. Democrats defeated all of them.

The reality is that cost estimates for climate legislation are as unreliable as the models predicting climate change. What comes out of the computer is a function of what politicians type in. A better indicator might be what other countries are already experiencing. Britain's Taxpayer Alliance estimates the average family there is paying nearly $1,300 a year in green taxes for carbon-cutting programs in effect only a few years.

Americans should know that those Members who vote for this climate bill are voting for what is likely to be the biggest tax in American history. Even Democrats can't repeal that reality.
post #2 of 61
I still don't understand how politicians don't realize raising/adding taxes to businesses will in turn make whatever they produce more expensive to the consumer. I understand the concept of what they're attempting to do, but this isn't a very well thought out way to do it.

You think people aren't flying on the airlines now? Wait until your plane ticket goes up another 25% because of the carbon tax. Plus, all the attempts to get this CO2 emission shit under control are all "stop it or pay more for it" instead of "let's see what we can do to not produce so much". You're going to tax my gasoline even more, but not give me any alternatives to use something else. No emphasis on changing the infrastructure of the country to include charging stations, hydrogen refueling centers, etc. And I can't take public transportation to my job because it's not feasible--actually, I think it's impossible. But I can't find another job closer to my home or public transportation because companies are laying people off left and right because they're already hurting financially, and now you're going to add yet another tax to said companies. How about giving incentives to the companies, or decreasing current tax breaks based on the company's carbon output? Why do we have to add another tax to the equation?

Wow, that was kind of a real rant there. Sorry about that.
post #3 of 61
The only thing I can say is that the costs are in effect are being passed on in the form of environmental change. As for gas taxes, they haven't been raised in years compounded with better mileage. Revenues have been falling, therefore they're going to be raised to cover for infastructure.

What this editorial fails to mention is that this process is already being done for acid rain prevention.
post #4 of 61
Here's the thing though, they have to pass it because the revenues generated are already factored into the budget as well as the CBO projections - meaning, if this fails those 9.6 Trillion dollar deficits that Obama and Congress are running will jump even higher.

Get used to the higher prices, you voted for the guy.
post #5 of 61
Snaike, it's not like they actually had a feasible way to pay for everything if this passes anyway.

But yeah, it's just a shitty idea all around.
post #6 of 61
Well, they're going to need to eliminate the Bush tax cuts that are due to expire in 2010 for everyone* and in all likelihood, some kind of a national VAT. They've already floated the idea of taxing soda, internet song downloads etc in states like NY.


Now, I can't wait for people to realize that they're paying more due to cap and trade and Obama isn't going to be giving them the "$1000 extra, to help offset these burdens"... he eliminated that from his budget because it wouln't go and the 'stimulus' tax cuts (not a $1,000) will expire in a couple of years.


*That includes the middle class tax cuts.
post #7 of 61
Also, here's a good read.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...are_97148.html

Quote:
As the US Congress considers the Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade bill, the Australian Senate is on the verge of rejecting its own version of cap-and-trade. The story of this legislation's collapse offers advance notice for what might happen to similar legislation in the US—and to the whole global warming hysteria.

Since the Australian government first introduced its Emission Trading Scheme (ETS) legislation—the Australian version of cap-and-trade energy rationing—there has been a sharp shift in public opinion and political momentum against the global warming crusade. This is a story that offers hope to defenders of industrial civilization—and a warning to American environmentalists that the climate change they should be afraid of just might be a shift in the intellectual climate.

An April 29 article in The Australian described the general trend—and its leading cause.

There is rising recognition that introduction of a carbon tax under the guise of "cap and trade" will be personally costly, economically disruptive to society and tend to shift classes of jobs offshore. Moreover, despite rising carbon dioxide concentrations, global warming seems to have taken a holiday….

With public perceptions changing so dramatically and quickly it is little wonder Ian Plimer's latest book, Heaven and Earth, Global Warming: The Missing Science, has been received with such enthusiasm and is into its third print run in as many weeks. [It's now up to the fifth printing.]

The public is receptive to an exposé of the many mythologies and false claims associated with anthropogenic global warming and are welcoming an authoritative description of planet Earth and its ever-changing climate in readable language.

It's lengthy but worthwhile.

Also something to consider, if I remember correctly... their version of cap and trade was a much lighter version then the hefty one we're proposing (in terms of revenue)

(edited to add more of quoted article)
post #8 of 61
No surprise that Krugman is on board:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/18/op...gman.html?_r=1

We should all listen to him...after all, the man is a genius:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Krugman, 7/18/2001
Meanwhile, economic policy should encourage other spending to offset the temporary slump in business investment. Low interest rates, which promote spending on housing and other durable goods, are the main answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Krugman, 8/2/2002

To fight this recession the Fed needs more than a snapback; it needs soaring household spending to offset moribund business investment. And to do that, Alan Greenspan needs to create a housing bubble to replace the Nasdaq bubble.
Obama's stock rises a little bit every time Krugman bitches about how Obama isnt listening to him as much as he would like.
post #9 of 61
Oh please.
post #10 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snaieke View Post
Also something to consider, if I remember correctly... their version of cap and trade was a much lighter version then the hefty one we're proposing (in terms of revenue)

Of course it would be, there's more industrial activity here than in Austrailia. But you do realize that every time an industry pollutes, there is a cost to that pollution. Why not try and harness that cost into a way that's beneficial?
post #11 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
Of course it would be, there's more industrial activity here than in Austrailia. But you do realize that every time an industry pollutes, there is a cost to that pollution. Why not try and harness that cost into a way that's beneficial?
Beneficial for whom? Also, theres really no way to quantify the "cost" of pollution that advocates mention. I dont think politicians are the best folks we want coming up with these values.

One of the comments on that WSJ article made sense (at least to me) when it suggested why not simply push for a "race to the moon" type scenario where more talent and resources are spent coming up with and implementing more productive forms of nuclear energy or something along those lines?

Also, creating an arbitrary value out of thin air for something opens a few too many doors for manipulation and corruption.

Last but not least, artificially/indirectly increasing the prices of pretty much everything is probably the last thing you want to do when the economy is attempting to pull itself out of a recession.
post #12 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Oh please.
Good point. Never thought of it like that.
post #13 of 61
From an interview the other day on CNBC:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren Buffett
I think if you get into the way it was written, it's a huge tax and there's no sense calling it anything else. I mean, it is a tax. And it's a fairly regressive tax. If we buy permits, essentially, at our utilities, that goes right into the bills of the utility customers and an awful lot of people in Iowa, in Oregon, and Utah, and places where we are, very poor people are going to pay a lot more money for electricity.
post #14 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by EdHocken View Post
Of course it would be, there's more industrial activity here than in Austrailia. But you do realize that every time an industry pollutes, there is a cost to that pollution. Why not try and harness that cost into a way that's beneficial?
Not what I was referring to in terms of the heftier bill. I read somewhere a while back that if there was a scale of say, 1-10 and other countries that had enabled a cap-and-trade system pretty much have it at a 2-3 and we're pushing that needle to a hard 10.

They're not harnessing that cost, it isn't like the money generated for that is going to new energy alternatives like promised, it's going towards regular "big" government spending and everyone is going to be paying for it. That extra burden is going to passed off onto the consumers in a hefty way and it isn't a matter of x = x in terms of cost as each time they increase prices it increases the amount owed to the government.

Look at the internet you're on right now as a prime example, do you know how many computers are required to get it from your computer to the servers that CHUD.com uses and then back to my computer? Think of the power consumption required to have those computers operational. Each computer\server has to be climate controlled, be in a separate office space that has to have lighting and except for the end-point computers each is going to be operational 24/7. Each step of the way everyone will be paying more, the internet providers, chud's hosting site, chud by proxy. That means not only will the electricity bill be higher, but so will the internet and cable bill, Telephone bill, cell phone bill, insurance bills, the cost of gas, a loaf of bread,... I think you get the idea. You as a consumer are going to not only be dinged but double, tripple, quadruple dinged etc...
post #15 of 61
On something like this I think the revolt will come after its enforced. Most Americans are lemmings and don't pay attention to bills like this They think "well, the dirty polluting business will pay it!" if they're thinking anything at all. Well, when the utilities raise electric rates people will go apeshit. And if they are smart the utilities and the like will tell the people why in a way that puts the blame soley on the government. Only then will people care. Many of us can afford a $50 a month increase in our electric bills but that will destroy some people.
post #16 of 61
Huh. Maybe now people will finally put on that goddamn sweater.
post #17 of 61
Oh goddamnit, taxing doesn't directly solve shit, especially when the government is in bed with oil companies. We're already seeing governments do fucked up things because of environmentalism, like walls around Rio de Janeiro to keep poor people out of the forests. Note that this isn't an argument against environmentalism...
post #18 of 61
post #19 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
On something like this I think the revolt will come after its enforced. Most Americans are lemmings and don't pay attention to bills like this They think "well, the dirty polluting business will pay it!" if they're thinking anything at all. Well, when the utilities raise electric rates people will go apeshit. And if they are smart the utilities and the like will tell the people why in a way that puts the blame soley on the government. Only then will people care. Many of us can afford a $50 a month increase in our electric bills but that will destroy some people.
What an utter load of horseshit. Perhaps you haven't been paying attention these last couple of years but the "people" have been stuck with rising energy and fuel bills they struggle to pay while companies report record profits. Alll of this occuring in the face of mass deregulation, the loosening of pollution standards (which don't go far enough in my opinion. Or perhaps you enjoy the fact companies like Phfizer dump pollutants into our waterways with impunity) and the lust for money that seemed to overtake this country like a plague among it's biggest corporations..

The "revolt" will come from lobbyists and monied interests more concerned with profit margins than the welfare of those people. It'll be sold as "fair competiton", "good for the consumer", and "lower prices". Which is a whole lot of false. Just like the auto industry fought every safety and regulatory standard that we now find most common tooth and nail, the energy companies will bitch, moan and make this whole thing as uncomfortable as possible while hiding behind the "consumer".

In the 70's Duke Energy was reporting record profits while the people who mined the primary source of that profit (coal) were living in abject poverty, unable to even meet the basic needs like clean, running water or without the means to even take advantage of the fruits of their labor by keeping the lights and heat on for their families. How many people gave a shit then? Where was the "revolt" over that?

If there is one thing that is true in America post-Industrial Revolution it's that these bodies of business have to be drug kicking and screaming towards what is right and good as opposed to what makes them the most money humanly possible. Adam Smith, Hume and Alexander Hamilton all understood that if you don't harness greed and ambition for the public good by government intervention it will run amock and destroy us.
post #20 of 61
The government is going to regulate your lung exhalation. Nice.

We'll all need cleaner air when we're all living in fucking tents because of the sky-rocketing cost of energy.
post #21 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bancroft Agee View Post
If there is one thing that is true in America post-Industrial Revolution it's that these bodies of business have to be drug kicking and screaming towards what is right and good as opposed to what makes them the most money humanly possible.
Oh come on. Since when did the US Govt become the arbiter of what is "right and good". Thats bullshit. Thinking that the Govt is more right than business is an opinion with ZERO evidence to back it up.
post #22 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
Oh come on. Since when did the US Govt become the arbiter of what is "right and good". Thats bullshit. Thinking that the Govt is more right than business is an opinion with ZERO evidence to back it up.
We have a winner!
post #23 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails View Post
Oh come on. Since when did the US Govt become the arbiter of what is "right and good". Thats bullshit. Thinking that the Govt is more right than business is an opinion with ZERO evidence to back it up.
Government in its fundamental design, dating back to the founding of the nation, it is meant to be the restraining force in the face of what Hume called the "spur of industry". Government is the instrument, not the arbiter. Those decisions lay in the hands of the people who have placed their trust and faith in a government to act in the public good.
post #24 of 61
I love all the people praying and praying for financial collapse in the United States (only under Obama, of course), just so's they can yell I TOLD YA SO!
post #25 of 61
Yes, because saying "he is going to have trillion dollar deficits based on his campaign promises" and advocating NOT voting for him back in July really meant I wanted the United States to fail.

If the United States collapses under Obama, you have no one to blame but those who voted for him, it isn't like he isn't doing exactly what he campaigned to do... except for the $1,000 to working families... and the not making the "95% of the hard working Americans pay more taxes"... using Paygo (ya ya, it doesn't count if you say ... except for everything I want to put through) ... and pulling out of Iraq.. etc...

The reason the Chinese are looking at world currency is because of the DEFICITS we are projected to have, not because of the debt we currently have.
post #26 of 61
Snaieke, you can't have the latter without the former. The problems with our economy go back a long way...it's just that Obama isn't doing anything at all to help the situation.
post #27 of 61
Matt Taibbi has a truly gut-wrenching story in this month's Rolling Stone about Goldman Sachs. I'm reading it now and it's literally making my stomach roil. He makes the case that Goldman Sachs has been a key player in 5 financial bubbles from the Depression in the 20s to the future bubble in the carbon-credit market. Unfortunately it's not online yet but it should be mandatory reading for every voting-age American. I'll link to it as soon as I see it online.
post #28 of 61
I can understanding this "bill" if we had a volatile alternative fuel source.

I'll rather let a free market come up and design the new fuel source as opposed to the government.
post #29 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
I can understanding this "bill" if we had a volatile alternative fuel source.

I'll rather let a free market come up and design the new fuel source as opposed to the government.
I could have understood that line of thinking up to, say, 2001 or some such, maybe 2002. At that point, if you werent a rather cynical economist, the writing on the wall was tiny, unreadable and probably in a foreign language to boot.

Today is different. I thought the last years, and I am not talking about the USA alone here, should have shown anyone interested that the "free market" idea is not working AT ALL the way it is meant to, instead becoming a vehicle for an ever more inhumane and self-destructive money grab, which by its very design cannot stop but cannibalize itself.
The "free market" in theory I can see coming up with an alternate fuel source, because in that pretty little fairyland theory, if there is a demand, its going to get supplied for.
Reality tells us, succinctly and brutally direct, that we will stay on oil for far longer than we can afford, because those currently in power, with money and lobbies and all, are profiting short-term from it, and will do their best to keep any sensible alternatives down. That is not conspiracy, that is their job and their responsibility to their bosses, and their shareholders. That is how the system, while maybe not intended, is designed to work.

I am not sure how many of you know this, but back in the 20s and 30s, businessmen saw themselves also as a sort of honour-bound keeper of the economy. There was a much more defined work ethic at higher levels, and that is why a lot of checks and balances, of taxes, limits and general rules were not needed, or not needed that badly back then. As time went on, and morals went lower (normal, I cynically say), the system showed its cracks and needed more regulation. The more you abuse any ruleset, the more patching is required.

At this point, I dont think our current system is built to promote research, advancement, progression and innovation. These things exist, but the system favors mediocrity and security over risk and innovation. You would need more government meddling to change that, to try and push research in certain areas, which is what you dont want.
post #30 of 61
This is a token drop in the bucket in terms of carbon emissions and two of the only Reps I trust in the House (Kucinich and DeFazio) voted against it.

And, as Taibbi points out in his story, "If cap and trade succeeds, won't we all be saved from the catastrophe of global warming? Maybe - but cap and trade, as envisioned by Goldman, is really just a carbon tax structured so that private interests collect the revenues. Instead of simply imposing a fixed government levy on carbon pullution and forcing unclean energy producers to pay for the mess they make, cap and trade will allow a small tribe of greedy-as-hell Wall Street swine to turn yet another commodities market into a private tax-collection scheme. This is worse than the bail-out: It allows the bank to seize taxpayer money before it's even collected.

" 'If it's going to be a tax, I would prefer that Washington set the tax and collect it,' says Michael Masters, the hedge-fund director who spoke out against oil-futures speculation. "But we're saying that Wall Street can set the tax, and Wall Street can collect the tax. That's the last thing in the world I want. It's just asinine.' "
post #31 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaunshar View Post
I could have understood that line of thinking up to, say, 2001 or some such, maybe 2002. At that point, if you werent a rather cynical economist, the writing on the wall was tiny, unreadable and probably in a foreign language to boot.

Today is different. I thought the last years, and I am not talking about the USA alone here, should have shown anyone interested that the "free market" idea is not working AT ALL the way it is meant to, instead becoming a vehicle for an ever more inhumane and self-destructive money grab, which by its very design cannot stop but cannibalize itself.
The "free market" in theory I can see coming up with an alternate fuel source, because in that pretty little fairyland theory, if there is a demand, its going to get supplied for.
Reality tells us, succinctly and brutally direct, that we will stay on oil for far longer than we can afford, because those currently in power, with money and lobbies and all, are profiting short-term from it, and will do their best to keep any sensible alternatives down. That is not conspiracy, that is their job and their responsibility to their bosses, and their shareholders. That is how the system, while maybe not intended, is designed to work.

I am not sure how many of you know this, but back in the 20s and 30s, businessmen saw themselves also as a sort of honour-bound keeper of the economy. There was a much more defined work ethic at higher levels, and that is why a lot of checks and balances, of taxes, limits and general rules were not needed, or not needed that badly back then. As time went on, and morals went lower (normal, I cynically say), the system showed its cracks and needed more regulation. The more you abuse any ruleset, the more patching is required.

At this point, I dont think our current system is built to promote research, advancement, progression and innovation. These things exist, but the system favors mediocrity and security over risk and innovation. You would need more government meddling to change that, to try and push research in certain areas, which is what you dont want.
While I prefer the free market developing technologies in comparison to the government, I wouldn't have a big problem with that in this case.

This bill is extremely terrible IMO because it creates potential taxation on business for the status quo, which will hurt the consumer in the long run. I would understand this bill if green technology was universally available AND cheap, but that's not the case. Because green tech is not fully developed, we're still going to see businesses use greenhouse-gas emitting technologies and I think it's wrong to create even more taxes that will have a negative benefit for them and eventually consumers. Natural gas bills will skyrocket, food prices will rise for example.

This bill will kill small businesses that require a use of greenhouse-gas emitting technology.
post #32 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Khaunshar View Post
.


Reality tells us, succinctly and brutally direct, that we will stay on oil for far longer than we can afford, because those currently in power, with money and lobbies and all, are profiting short-term from it, and will do their best to keep any sensible alternatives down. That is not conspiracy, that is their job and their responsibility to their bosses, and their shareholders. That is how the system, while maybe not intended, is designed to work.



At this point, I dont think our current system is built to promote research, advancement, progression and innovation. These things exist, but the system favors mediocrity and security over risk and innovation. You would need more government meddling to change that, to try and push research in certain areas, which is what you dont want.
I fully understand the need for some government meddling, you just can't pop out a new fuel source without an infrastructure to support it. But as you said there are too many people with power making money with oil and sadly some of those people are in our government.

I want a new energy source as much as the next guy (being dependent on other countries is just too much of a risk to national security) But there needs to be a gradual change for this. Just taxing the hell out of companies due to their carbon foot print is a bad way to go about it.

I'm not against government help, it's needed of course for advancement and funding. I'm just against this bill.
post #33 of 61
The bill, as far as I can grasp it with my imperfect knowledge about the tax models for US companies, is a major idiocy. I happily grant you that. Quite actually, it doesnt really do all that much except shift money from one lobbied business to another. Kind of a armwrestle match between these lobbies so to say, which is a disappointment to say the least.
I was specifically commenting on the suggestion of letting the "free market" develop alternate energy without intervention, which wont happen, or at least not within acceptable limits both in time and result, as I pointed out.

You know, the extent to which business interests by today run completely contrary to the interests of the people, or the human race in general if you want to use the global climate change argument, is stunning. We built ourselves a nice, tidy little vicious circle here, where everyone just follows their immediate tasks, and 99% are worse off afterwards
post #34 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
Matt Taibbi has a truly gut-wrenching story in this month's Rolling Stone about Goldman Sachs. I'm reading it now and it's literally making my stomach roil. He makes the case that Goldman Sachs has been a key player in 5 financial bubbles from the Depression in the 20s to the future bubble in the carbon-credit market. Unfortunately it's not online yet but it should be mandatory reading for every voting-age American. I'll link to it as soon as I see it online.
Goldman is indeed plugged into pretty much everything. I'm not a big believer in a lot of conspiracy theories, but more often than not these types of stories re Goldman have a lot of truth to them.

Back to the subject at hand...why doesn't the government simply create incentives for developing new technologies as opposed to punishing those that stick to the norm when there is a lack of any viable alternative?
post #35 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

Back to the subject at hand...why doesn't the government simply create incentives for developing new technologies as opposed to punishing those that stick to the norm when there is a lack of any viable alternative?
This is exactly the problem. It's placing blame on companies that have no other choice but to use those technologies.
post #36 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Back to the subject at hand...why doesn't the government simply create incentives for developing new technologies as opposed to punishing those that stick to the norm when there is a lack of any viable alternative?
Because that is what McCain wanted to do, and it was proven successful with such enterprises as NASA (Spaceship one).

Thus, it is crazy talk.
post #37 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Goldman is indeed plugged into pretty much everything. I'm not a big believer in a lot of conspiracy theories, but more often than not these types of stories re Goldman have a lot of truth to them.
The Closer, you need to read this story. It will make your skin crawl and your blood boil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Back to the subject at hand...why doesn't the government simply create incentives for developing new technologies as opposed to punishing those that stick to the norm when there is a lack of any viable alternative?
Good question, but I think its answer can be found in anti-trust legislation.
post #38 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post
The Closer, you need to read this story. It will make your skin crawl and your blood boil.
Chances are Ive heard similar or worse. Word gets around in our line of work. Often times we tend to resemble a bunch of spinsters with our gossiping.


Quote:
Good question, but I think its answer can be found in anti-trust legislation.
Maybe, but I just think the government prefers to punish bad behavior as opposed to promoting good behavior. Someones gotta let them in on that whole honey vs vinegar analogy.
post #39 of 61
A good piece by Clive Crook that expresses in a perfect way why people like myself are dissapointed in this bill as well as Obamas performance as a whole so far:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/706bbcde-6...nclick_check=1

Quote:
Mr Obama aims to keep his promises, which is admirable. Unfortunately, there is a problem. This is not, as many Republicans argue, that neither issue requires forthright action. Both do. The problem is that the bills emerging from Congress are bad and Mr Obama does not seem to mind.

...

Without hesitating, he has cast aside principles he emphasised during the campaign. On healthcare, for instance, he opposed an individual insurance mandate. On climate change, he was firm on the need to auction all emissions permits. Congress proposes to do the opposite in both cases and Mr Obama’s instant response is: “That will do nicely.”

post #40 of 61
I completely agree, but at the same time I think what people are missing are the gangsters from the huge multinationals and the incredible power they hold over congress and the media. Obama can't do this alone. If he were to do everything I would want him to do, they would come after him guns blazing, and everyone in Washington could stay on their payroll and roast Obama alive. I don't think the average person has even the vaguest idea of the stranglehold they have on our govt. and media.

That could be one reason for Obama's slow-and-steady strategy. Obama's best ally has always been the people, from the beginning and still today. Maybe his ordered, measured way of doing things is to get the public to pay attention, maybe figure out the truth of the bankrupt state of Washington, and demand ALL of them, not just Obama, do the right thing.

I think everyone expects Republicans to side with the multinationals and big business over the American people. They are truly laughable in their utter servitude, uselessness and predictability. But what has been illuminating has been watching the "centrist" or "conservative" or "blue dog dems" do this sick puppet dance around the issues of climate change, health care, financial regulation, etc. The legislators who are supposed to be for the people either have to break their chains or get booted out of office.
post #41 of 61
Sweet smoking conan, this is tired.

Of course we have to pay increasing costs for an oil-based economy. Thems the breaks. We're already spending a momentous fortune and our childrens livelihood to support a massive military machine geared largely to protecting and propping up our oil interests. Factor in congestion, quality of life, ozone, long term birth defects caused thereby, shortened life expectancies, larger medical bills, and I find it pretty amazing that people can argue against this based on economics. We blow a few trillion socializing investment risk, but we refuse to pony up the absolutely vital and necessary energy infrastructure necessary to maintain America's place on the planet. Kickstart the green revolution by any means possible, encourage T. Boone Pickens to get even more filthy rich for the benefit of the country (we've already offered the same deal to Goldman Sachs, Chase, Citi, AIG with startlingly little to show for it, other than massive zombie banks and an exasperation of the too big to fail syndrome), put solar panels on the fucking white house roof, subsidize everyone who wants to do the same. How ever can we afford this? Take a suggestion from our Secretary of Defense, and cut the bullshit contracts for the F-22, DDX and all the other high tech useless shit we're paying out the dick for. We're already paying for ultra lethal unmanned weapons platforms, reallocation of these cuts could easily fund UAVs, a workable missile defense shield (no lasers, no crazy mid air trajectories, just some massive fucking mirrors strategically placed) with more than enough left over to pay for some solar roofing.

The budgetary inflow from selling carbon pollution permits at a reasonable, market level price would be more than enough to offset the increase in costs for the majority of lower income households. Focus on conservation and efficiency, and you're looking at a net surplus within a decade. You know a good plan for dealing with the increased energy costs if you dont need subsidization? Don't buy a fucking Explorer just because the price of gas momentarily dipped below 2 bucks. Manage with one giant plasma screen as opposed to another one in the toilet. Pay less for energy by decreasing the amount of energy you use. Sound like I'm scapegoating? I'm not. If you can afford a brand new Challenger and a pool and a vacation to somewhere nice, you can afford to figure out how to use less energy. Buy your own damned solar panels. Move out of an ugly as sin mcmansion perched on the edge of some desolate county road and downsize.

We beat the fucking Nazi's and put a man on the moon. Somehow Americans managed to find a way to make that happen without destroying the country's economy. In the end these both paid massive dividends. This is the cause for our time - we have to decide whether we want to live in a biosphere or a necrosphere. We're now dealing with a massive deficit largely inherited from Republican Administrations that has seen massive accumulation of wealth in the hands of the wealthy and a deterioration of America's standing in the world. Many American's need to grow the fuck up, tighten their belts (as most of us already are), and realize that their material wealth is negligible if it comes at the long term health of the country (unless you're already filthy fucking rich, of course. Then you can hire Blackrock for your gated community and import T-Rex eggs for your omelette's).

Tyrannosaurus Rex evolved into some flying fucking birds. Adapt or die. Our window of action is now impossibly small. We need resources available to blow up a fucking asteroid incoming to Earth or dealing with Yellowstone if its about to pop or rectifying the global chaos of one really fantastic solar storm.

I'm talking to you. If you're a patriot, then figure it out, and work to achieve whats necessary. Bring back the trains. Make interstate trucking increasingly inviable. Get the goddamned 18 wheelers off public highways. Make them pay for the privilege and use. Can't do it? Good. Localize trade traffic and put the rest on integrated trains through strategically placed inland hubs. It is absolutely not impossible, because they are building the largest inland port in the country just down the highway from where I live. If we really need that many trucks, then they travel on separate trade corridors (also on the drawing board in Texas, if Fucknuts Perry can disentangle his hair from the pressing need). I'm talking about Texas guys. We do energy and sprawl like nobodies business.

We can do this. Greatest nation on Earth. You don't want to pay for it? Well we already are. We rebuilt Europe, transformed our agriculture from the dustbowl to the most productive on Earth, built a massive interstate highway system in astonishing time, put a man on the fucking moon, invented the internet (props to Senator Gore!) and done amazing work fighting AIDS in Africa (props to President Bush). Somehow all of this has made this the most prosperous, tolerant beacon of liberty in the world. Why do immigrants move to America? Because it's a dream, one that our forefathers fought and died for to secure. We're killing that dream with short sighted greed and petty self interest. It's time to wake up, shake loose of the Reaganomics hangover, and buy some fucking turtlenecks.

This country has done significantly more with significantly less. Our generation can't drop the ball here. We can become a truly great generation in the molds of those that shaped this country if we sincerely mean. Absolutely we can do it. We have to.
post #42 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Maybe, but I just think the government prefers to punish bad behavior as opposed to promoting good behavior. Someones gotta let them in on that whole honey vs vinegar analogy.
That was the point I was trying to make. Government is more than happy to punish for the bad rather than reward for the good. Why? More money for the government.
post #43 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post

Back to the subject at hand...why doesn't the government simply create incentives for developing new technologies as opposed to punishing those that stick to the norm when there is a lack of any viable alternative?
I'd argue that in certain isolated cases that is happening. Solar power is not economically viable right now...except that governments around the world have big tax savings in place for those who use it. Also the German government, PG&E here in California etc are installing solar panels all over the place.

As a result, there has been a huge boom amongst the solar power providers (along with a bubble in Solar company stocks). New techniques and market competition are bringing down the cost to solar, so that by 2020 it may be competitive with traditional power sources.

But...I think there has to be both a carrot and a stick. To use another example, the should be "penalties" for buying gas burning cars (in the form of higher prices, more stringent pollution controls etc) and incentives to buy electric cars (California had a nice tax break for those buying Hybrids until I think last year).

And that IMO is the kind of thing government can and should do. Because a pure free market will not take long term detrimental effects into account (like the huge spike in Asthma and other health problems, very much tied to the smog produced by millions of cars as well as factories, in areas like Fresno)
post #44 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I'd argue that in certain isolated cases that is happening. Solar power is not economically viable right now...except that governments around the world have big tax savings in place for those who use it. Also the German government, PG&E here in California etc are installing solar panels all over the place.

As a result, there has been a huge boom amongst the solar power providers (along with a bubble in Solar company stocks). New techniques and market competition are bringing down the cost to solar, so that by 2020 it may be competitive with traditional power sources.
By and large, it's all a scam to make money.

There have been clean, cheap, effective means to produce energy since the 70's using existing sites however that isn't beneficial towards anyone's pocket. (readers digest version) You can attach a series of cables between two derelict ships in one of the many abandoned ship yards and enable the natural ocean waves to move the ships up and down and with each wave it will pull the cable generating electricity (on both ships). One ship yard could generate enough electricity to power half the country and you could have a redundancy system using fossil fuels, this would reduce fossil fuel usage by 90% using existing 'eye sores' with minimal changes to the infrastructure of our country. Unfortunately, something like this cannot happen because there is no money to be made off of it and more importantly (to the government) no money to be taxed.


Solar energy is dependant upon the sun, which isn't shining 24/7... but there are always waves.
post #45 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
I'd argue that in certain isolated cases that is happening. Solar power is not economically viable right now...except that governments around the world have big tax savings in place for those who use it. Also the German government, PG&E here in California etc are installing solar panels all over the place.

As a result, there has been a huge boom amongst the solar power providers (along with a bubble in Solar company stocks). New techniques and market competition are bringing down the cost to solar, so that by 2020 it may be competitive with traditional power sources.

But...I think there has to be both a carrot and a stick. To use another example, the should be "penalties" for buying gas burning cars (in the form of higher prices, more stringent pollution controls etc) and incentives to buy electric cars (California had a nice tax break for those buying Hybrids until I think last year).

And that IMO is the kind of thing government can and should do. Because a pure free market will not take long term detrimental effects into account (like the huge spike in Asthma and other health problems, very much tied to the smog produced by millions of cars as well as factories, in areas like Fresno)
I have a serious problem with this bill impacting small businesses already in serious financial trouble with the economy we are in. The trucking industry along with several other industries could seriously fall apart with the additional taxes added to their expenses.

It seems totally ass backward to add taxes to businesses at a time like this.
post #46 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pompoussory Estoppel View Post
I have a serious problem with this bill impacting small businesses already in serious financial trouble with the economy we are in. The trucking industry along with several other industries could seriously fall apart with the additional taxes added to their expenses.

It seems totally ass backward to add taxes to businesses at a time like this.
I'm against this bill but I think the small businesses aren't in the offing. It's the big coal polluters who would have to worry (that is, if the bill had any teeth to begin with).
post #47 of 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
I can understanding this "bill" if we had a volatile alternative fuel source.

I'll rather let a free market come up and design the new fuel source as opposed to the government.
What if they don't want to? And I don't think they want to, because they haven't.
post #48 of 61
This bill is a wolf in sheep's clothing. I heard Congressman Peter DeFazio on Thom Hartmann this morning and he detailed exactly what kind of egregious bait and switch the House bill is. DeFazio, Kucinich and one other Democrat in the House voted against.

This is from Rep. DeFazio's official site:

Quote:
"Just a few short months ago, the world economy stood at the brink of total disaster because of market manipulation and the lack of regulation in the financial sector. Now we are constructing a whole new speculative market in carbon allowances and offset trading while our economy is still struggling to recover from the last economic collapse. I voted against this bill because a deregulated market is not the way to respond to one of the most important and pressing challenges of our time, global warming,” DeFazio said. “Furthermore, speculation in the carbon market will unnecessarily drive up energy costs in unpredictable ways. And, by best estimates a cap and trade system will only produce modest reductions in our carbon emissions over the next century.”
...

DeFazio instead favors a regulatory approach similar to the Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act. Under DeFazio’s plan, the US would set a strong cap, inventory pollution sources, issue permits, and fine polluters who don’t meet their targets. The Clean Water Act and the Clean Air Act are two of the most successful environmental laws in history. In fact, under court order, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has begun the process to regulate green house gas emissions under the Clean Air Act. Remarkably, the Markey-Waxman bill specifically prohibits the EPA from going forward with those regulations.

“A regulatory program would not require Congressional approval meaning we would begin to reduce emissions immediately, no Wall Street speculators and hedgers, no carbon market or new derivatives market, no giveaways to polluters, no complex and unverifiable ‘international offsets,’ and no uncertainty about meaningful emission reductions,” DeFazio said. “I am deeply saddened that this approach was not considered and instead, the House has voted to create the next financial instrument of mass destruction, a trillion dollar carbon trading bubble for Wall Street.”
post #49 of 61
Really if this bill passes the Democrats will be as dead as the Republicans come 2012. Without this bill here is the future of this country, hipper inflation with a chance of great depression. Without this bill the Democrats have a chance of pulling the countries fat out of the fire. If this bill passes the economy with only get a lot worse, and some third party will take control in 2012. if I had to bet I would say some kind of fascist party. I don't think it will be a races party like the Nazis, more like the Italian fascists. The stupidity of this bill at this time is just mind bogglingly, if they want it they should wait four years once the have won the next major elections, and have got the economy turned around. They might get away with it then, but not now.
post #50 of 61
Is hipper inflation a more trendy and hip version of Hyperinflation?
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