Supernatural Season 5 - Page 3

I hope it’s enormous. I hope it drives them batshit crazy. It felt like the show was practically daring them to act up.

Gotta love a good Simpsons reference.

Yes, yes it was.

Did it seem as though it might have been ‘God’ looking out for Sam, Dean and Castiel? Castiel implies as much, and Zachariah’s moment of fear in Castle storage seemed to confirm it.

Really good return episode. I especially loved the way that they drew out the Lucifer’s vessel plot through the hour. I’d expected Dean to be the one to go looking for some accountability from God, but having Lucifer be the one to take that philosophical stance (a) makes perfect sense, and (b) makes the character far more interesting than the standard ‘evil’ devil.

I'm wondering whether the near-comforting Lucifer we saw last night is an accurate representation of how the character will be played, or if that was simply the seductive face of an angel consumed by vengeance. And I'm wondering how Lucifer and the demons are going to get along.

My only nitpick: I love Dean, but the actor pushes the 'tough guy' act a little far occasionally. He verged into Batman-voice territory a few times last night.

It wasn't you. That makes two actresses in a row that they've cast with weirdly distracting speech. The first being the new Ruby from last year. You'd think that diction would be more important to casting directors when looking for convincingly evil demons.

Then again, I thought the actress last night was quite good, despite the lithp.

Agreed. The 'tortured Dean speech' thing is beyond played-out. It's not drama any more - it's self-parody. Dean sold the end of last night's episode, but I don't want to see much more of this pissy estrangement.

In last night's episode, Lucifer was played by Dr. Miller from "Scrubs". I find this amusing for some reason.

Good stuff all around last night. I'm so glad they didn't kill Bobby. At first I thought that there was no way they'd follow through like that, but then I thought that knocking Bobby out of the picture would just further isolate the boys and the fear kicked in. Maybe he'll walk, maybe not, but a wheelchair bound Bobby is netter than no-Bobby and it still might keep him distant from them. It's not like he'd be able to hop in his car and just show up to save the day, you know?

The angels were indeed dicks, and it was kinda spooky seeing them cave so quickly to Cas... the scope is definitely getting bigger. The instant rib sigil Cas gave to Sam and Dean was great.

Also, hopefully the friction between Sam and Dean won't be too overpowering. This quote from Ausiello at EW might help shed some light one way or the other. It's not a spoiler but I'll hide it anyway:

According to series creator Eric Kripke, this season is all about “building Sam and Dean back up in a way that makes them older, sadder, wiser, and, ultimately, stronger. It’s funny, we’ve been feeling in many ways that this is the most optimistic season of Supernatural we’ve ever done. Because even though the exterior circumstances are a massive cluster f–k, internally, the boys aren’t tearing each other apart every episode. It’s more like, ‘Hey, maybe we’ll lose, but, dammit, let’s go down swinging.’”

Anyway, so glad it's back, and can't wait for more. I must admit to getting pissy about having to wait a week (commented as much to my wife last night. She's a BIG Dean fan.), but hey, it's something to look forward too. And yes, that new title card is great! (ETA: and more AC/DC too!)

New Meg was played by Rachel Miner, whom those with taste will recognise from Californication. Bit different with blonde hair though.

Never watched Supernatural, decided to try last night's episode out of curiosity. God, what an insufferable phony tough guy act. You fans can handle multiple seasons of this?

Least convincing badass since Judge Reinhold played special forces commander Evan Mink in the action movie blockbuster Project: Human Weapon

There might be juuuuust a little exaggeration there, Disciple. To be fair to the show, Dean's typically not played that way which is why I bring it up. Usually he's more the amiable meathead type. The actor just makes the mistake, occasionally, of pushing it when he should be (in my humble opinion) underplaying it.

Why? Because it's played for the most part with a sense of humor and fun. Walking into the show at this point is nigh-pointless. Seek out some stand-alone episodes from the 2nd and 3rd seasons and you'll get a better sense of the shows tone.

Try "Mystery Spot".

Fair enough. I'll say this for the show, it was good seeing Lost's Jacob turn up.

Mattioli's suggestion to try 'Mystery Spot' is a really good one. I'll also recommend 'Bad Day At Black Rock' as a good episode to sample.

Good opener. Like where it's going. Hated new meg, hope they get a better actress with more attitude and better diction.

Bobby in a wheelchair?

Alright looks like im late to the party as always but here it goes. I loved the episode! Loved honest good guy Satan, his points were.....well is it wrong that I agreed with him? I mean not the destroying all mankind part but yeah it would be nice to know why bad things happen to good people in god's universe. I like the idea that Satan is still technically an angel so he has to ask permission to gain entrance to the body but former human demons just walk right in. Dean being a vessel? Interesting that both him and Sam were chosen at birth by opposite sides and im glad Sam didn't end up being Satan's vessel. Ohh and while I don't mild the colt coming back im hoping defeating Satan is harder than using a bullet. There were a few things that bumped me a little.

I know it all ended up being a plan of the angels but did Chuck really not think that the angels could hear him over the internet?

I actually like Rachel Miner and I thought she was going to be the full time Meg but if thats true how did she run off? So she took off and then came back to reclaim the body? Demons don't usually do that.

Odd that Dean would be so angry at Sam for betraying him. I mean not really that odd I guess but to be fair Sam didn't really start the apocalypse, Dean did. If Dean has not tortured those people in hell Sam would never have even had the chance to bring Lucifer back.

I wish they hasn't given the god thing away so soon. I mean I hope im wrong but they truly did seem to push that god saved them and brought Castiel back. Would have been nice to go a bit longer before bringing gods presence in the mix.

Sam detoxing thing seemed a little abrupt however thats better than seeing him detox hullucinate in a room for days. I do hope though that we get one more super power Sam kicking ass episode before the show ends. Not to mention shouldn't he still have some power left? I mean I know he woulnd't/shouldn't use them now but it seems to me that even before the demon blood he could do some very basic things.

All in all a great episode and nex week looks strong http://www.cwtv.com/shows/supernatural

Yeah, Lucifer wants justice for everyone and he's really just misunderstood. That's why he tortured his vessel with frightening images and sounds of his brutally murdered loved ones..

Damn I'm happy this show is back!

Right thanks for the spoiler.

Also, it's been mentioned a few times why Dean is mad at Sam. Isn't it more the fact that he betrayed him and Bobby than actually starting the Apocalypse? Sam believes his own hype in that Dean is the weak one and only he can stop everything, and he chooses to side with (And sleep with....and feed from) a Demon.

If Sam's starting the Apocalypse was under different circumstances I don't think Dean would be as pissed. But it's how it happened, and that ultimate betrayal that causes Dean to distrust Sam.

Not to nitpick. I understand the Producers had to find a way to get Sam and Dean off the Archangel's radar. But "Enochian Sigils"?

Considering Archangels like Lucier and Michael have Demigod-like powers. Can a simple warding spell like this be much of a hinderence?

You know I think I might have to put Domingo on ignore the way he keeps casually dropping spoilers in here. Not that they're major or anything, but I don't want all of the obvious possible plot points being speculated on confirmed before they're even hinted at in the show.

I actually thought Nick gave in a little too easy. I just don't see what about the pitch brought him on board, it'll be a horrbile experience, can't bring your family back, blah, blah, justice, which can easily be read as bullshit, being as it comes from The Devil. It seems more like the guy was on the road to suicide more so than a man with any interest in holding God accountable, especially with the vivid halucinations brought on by Lucifer. Not that I wanted it to stretch out for a couple episodes, but maybe a little more development of Nick having some issue with God, or even that he thinks God exists. He could have easily been an atheist whose family got murdered, but conveniently he's a believer that can go with the flow of the devil showing up at the foot of his bed.

I guess I'll throw my hat in with those that liked this Meg, lithsp and all, at least she could deliver a line with some personality. I was a little disappointed when Meg vacated the meat suit instead jumping out a window, or something.

Also, am I the only one confused by them still connecting the demon blood to Sam's powers? Wasn't that one of Ruby's revelations before being shanked, that the blood was just a sugar pill? I guess the demon blood could still have had narcotic effects, but I took it at the time to mean Sam was having a psychosomatic response to the blood. That he could have manifested the power without it, and all his shitty choices and behavior were his own.

Anyways, pretty solid minus a few issues.

The way Meg asks Sam how he's doing suggested to me that they actually robbed him of his powers intentionally since his job was pretty much done.

Great opener. I agree that Pellegrino gave in a bit too easy - it actually would have been nice to see Lucifer trying increasingly extreme ways to be allowed in for another ep or 2 - but that's just a nitpick. Am I the only one who thinks that at some point this season Dean will allow Michael* to use him as a vessel?


*LOVED the "angel condom" joke

Great opening.

As mentioned before, good to see the second "Ginger Snaps" sister in the episode (next season Mimi Rodgers as a demon?). In terms of the fan fic-funny, how Dean almost gets the "Road House" line "Thought you would be taller" and how much love is given to Sam-creepy and funny at the same time.

In my opinion Nick's invitation is a form of suicide. It's certainly a self-annihilation. Supernatural has never gone for in-depth characterization over multiple episodes, preferring a 'one and done' approach. See Castiel's origin episode, the gordon vamps out episode, etc. That's an arguable overall flaw But it's the way the show rolls. Given that limitation I really enjoyed the fact that they chose to give Nick (what an apt name for the devil's vessel) as much time as they did. The character's a convenient archetype, in that he's basically the anti-Job, choosing to blame god for his suffering instead of accepting ineffability.

And while Lucifer's argument is logical and seductive, it's also prideful and wrathful, ignoring the inherent responsibilities of human free will in the equation.

That's my two cents, at any rate!

I actually like that Nick doesn't get taken over until the end of the episode. I was genuinely expecting him to become Luficer when he walks into the House.

And of course it sets up that nice parallel with how the Angels try to convince Dean to be the Vessel and how Lucifer does it.

I didn't see it as a form of suicide or self annihilation. We know that he'll still be in there, and devil implied to him he'd still be around to feel unpleasant about it. It's like wanting to die, but settling for paralysis below the neck. Theoretically he'll now be stuck in his own head feeling like shit for an undetermined amount of time with no control over when it ends, if ever. Yeah, though, that's how the show rolls, but they could have in this same episode shown Nick walking away from a church angry, or blowing off his priest who comes to the door to offer comfort. Wouldn't have taken much time at all.

I just think they coasted through that a little too easy. I didn't find the argument logical or seductive at all, they just needed him to consent, so they can get on with it, which is fine, but a missed opportunity.

You can mention things, just put up a spoiler tag, or make it so you have to highlight it. Neither should put you too far out your way.

I've been fairly busy at work (and when I say "fairly", I mean "insanely"), so the fact that Supernatural was back this soon (all is relative!) came as an extremely pleasant surprise. The makers of the show certainly don't seem to have missed a step, they came back swinging. Loved the molar in the hair, for some reason Dean calling Zach an "asshat" made me laugh a lot, and I love how they keep making the title cards a little cooler every year.

P.S.
The new Vampire show was honestly some of the worst shit ever, horrible in every single way. Never, ever watch this.
D.S.

You always do spoilers. STOP. Its not cute anymore that you have insider info.

Domingo,

You once asked me why I don't like you. Your insistence on spoiling the show to show what a cool guy you are is why.

Love,

Me

He's also mentioned characters that should have been a surprise that will be back this season.

Joining in late to the love fest to the premiere. So glad this show is back on the air now. Loved the new title card, the excellent transition to Yosemite Sam, and Jacob as the devil's vessel haha. Nice.

I think it's definitely going to happen, but probably Michael will show up in some fashion first for some Luciferian smooth talk, tryin to convince Dean he isn't as much a prick as the other angels.

Where did you mention that?

Gonna have to agree with this here. I think the show is all about wasted potential.

How Lucifer is ultimatly defeated is going to be a fine line with how the show sticks the landing if this is the last season. Having one of your main characters being used as a meat puppet for some higher powe to beat Satan might feel like a cheat. However,if the boys kill Lucifer themselves then they have to find another all powerful weapon like the Colt to get the job done which might feel redundant. It'll be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Well I don't know if anyone can rob Sam of his powers except maybe god. Plus in next weeks preview you do see Sam eyeing the blood on the knife. Also I don't think the demon blood was exactly a "sugar pill". After he killed Lilth he tried to kill Ruby and she said something like "sorry shot your load already". Seems to be implying that he used all the blood up for now which is fine but I would still think the blood only makes him stronger, not gives him his abilities.

Oh and James I do understand why Dean is mad at Sam but im just saying that Dean tortured people. They both performed some dirty fucked up actions and you would think Dean would understand better than anyone what you can do when pushed.

Seriously, Domingo. Cut out that spoiler shit if you don't want people to think you're a douche.

You didn't bother to edit your spoilery post. So excuse me if I don't believe you.

Domingo, I've always appreciated your input and bits of insider info. Hopefully you keep them coming, with (obviously) spoiler warnings when appropriate.

Just a quick question, do you think the creator's had any idea that they were going to go all Heaven v. Hell near the end of season 3, or was it a necessary direction to go in order to have a believable way to get Dean back out of hell? I always figured they were sitting around worried about finding a reason that fans would accept for getting Dean back out, and the only thing they could come up with that would work would be a real angel. I never had the sense that an apocalyptic story line was what was coming; even with the YED always hinting at some mysterious plan. You have any knowledge about that type of thing, or is that outside of you scope? ...or did I really just miss something in the first three seasons??

Thanks!

If a little chastising means you dial down the brazen posting of spoilers, then I think everyone benefits. Don't get me wrong, I don't mind most of what you post in the thread. And the behind the scenes stuff is occasionally fun to hear about. I just think that the "look how much I know about future episodes" thing is off-putting.

Okay, I'm done with this unpleasant topic. Moving right along....

There's a part of me that wonders if Cas hasn't fallen. As last season rolled on, we saw him beginning to question his, for lack of a better word, faith. Maybe the angels' manipulations have caused him to fall. If that's the case, it may not be God that raised Castiel at all. Just a thought.

As for Nick accepting Lucifer, I took it as more of him being so angry and grief stricken that he seized upon the opportunity to punish something. If you were truly angry at God, at the world, etc., Lucifer might just look like the best possible weapon to make sure they got punished. And I say this as someone who can relate with what Nick is going through.

[QUOTE=Mattioli;2693594]There's a part of me that wonders if Cas hasn't fallen. As last season rolled on, we saw him beginning to question his, for lack of a better word, faith. Maybe the angels' manipulations have caused him to fall. If that's the case, it may not be God that raised Castiel at all. Just a thought.[QUOTE]

Yes but then what saved the boys from the plane and detoxed Sam? That one Angel seemed pretty shocked when Castiel mentioned god. Could of been acting but I don't think so. No im pretty sure they are bringing god into the mix. I mean not his actual form, not yet. According to last season Zach angel said that "god has left the building". So much like Lucifer I assume god us missing, possibly locked away somewhere a long time ago by the "bad" Angels maybe? Maybe he has some kind of limited power and saved Castiel because maybe Castiel will find him.

I just wish the mention of god had not been brought up in the very first episode. I mean like it go for a few episodes and let us wonder who saved the boys. Was it an angel? A demon? Maybe Anna or someone we haven't seen yet or a face from the past. Honestly if they had not put it out there I would have never guessed god. Or maybe I would have eventually but this show has always been good about keeping god out of the picture, so much so that I would have actually been suprised when it happened. Having Castiel mention him so early just felt....I don't know...forced somehow.

Also anyone remember the episode from season 2 I think that was all about faith? The one where Sam believed and Dean didn't? Seems kind of funny now huh?

Lucifer?
I agree. I'm just not sure that it will be as clear cut it seems from the first episode.

There was a TV Guide interview a couple of years ago where Kripke was asked if we'd ever see good supernatural beings as well as evil. I believe Kripke said something about how he didn't want to go that route, instead preferring to show that humans were the vessels of good.

And now that I think about it, that's still exactly what he's doing. We don't actually see the angels, just their human vessels.

And more to the point - the angels aren't 'good' as we might define that word. They're as cold as the demons in their way, and they don't care about individual lives at all unless they're useful lives.

I suspect that if God is still around he may be residing in the one place that neither the demons nor the angels care anything about - his children, humanity.

I really like the parallel in thematic storytelling going on here. Dean and Sam are both defined in large part by their relationships to their father, and their growth as characters has been influenced in varying degrees by their rebellions against him or his memory. This is mirrored in the established relationship between the angels and their father. Rebellion has been the one consistent, recurring theme in this show.

I also love the attribution to free will given to the demons - they can enter any body they wish, at any time - while Lucifer lacks free will and must gain permission. Does this make the demons more powerful than their "father"?

I really hope things don't go back to normal between Sam and Dean - their relationship is irrevocably changed, and that must ring true.

Will Jesus make an appearance? Is Judgement Day a possibility for the show?

I don't want to get too deep here, it's not like this show is Mad Men, but I agree and I'd say revenge is another major theme that we see popping up again and again. It's what led John Winchester to raise his sons the way he did, it's what set Sam off on his quest to kill Lilith, and most recently it's what drove Lucifer's vessel to give his consent.

And I agree here, too. As strong as the brothers' relationship always seemed, it was also co-dependent to the point of being unhealthy. It would be nice to see their relationship patched up, but with each of them a bit stronger and more independent.

Its easy to see how someone Zachariah (or potentially Michael) has more in common with Lucifer than he does with Dean. Of course that connection was more explicit last season with that angel played by Bunny from The Wire resenting humanity, but the writers are taking a consistent approach with the "good" angels.

This.

I watched it live but haven't come in here since... but what Mattioli said is pretty much the way I felt.

I don't buy that God was the one who saved the boys nor raised Castiel... I mean, if God were on the playing field wouldn't he just like... be more direct?

Good stuff.