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Honduras Coup

post #1 of 18
Thread Starter 
So what's up with that? Does MJ's death clog the US media so much that there hasn't been a mention yet?

Let me start by saying that from what I've read the situation seems to be a little complicated but I assume that everyone here rejects using a nation's army to settle political differences. I don't have the knowledge to identify anyone's motive in this mess but the military ousting a country democratically elected president should never be an option for a nation that considers itself democratic.

What's even more worrying though is that this seems to fit into a climate of growing unrest in Latin America. Do you think there's a danger the region might slip back into a more volatile state than the seeming post cold war calm?
post #2 of 18
From what (little) I understand, the former prez was trying to single handidly change the constitution to remain in power indefinately. The Supreme Court and congress said aw hell naw abs forced him out, hence Hugo Chavez getting all pissy. It looks like the overthrow was an attempt to preserve democracy.

Again, that's based off the snippets I've read.
post #3 of 18
If that's the case Closer then why is the rest of the western world condemning the action and threatening to isolate Honduras completely?
post #4 of 18
Yeah, I have heard both what Closer and Rain Dog are saying, though it does not compute. I guess that El Captain or Tati or our other South American Chewers might shed some light on this situation. And their input is welcome as always.
post #5 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
If that's the case Closer then why is the rest of the western world condemning the action and threatening to isolate Honduras completely?
Dont know, as I mentioned Im just going off of bits and pieces.

If those bits and pieces are correct, however, then I cant disagree with what happened. If Dubya woke up one day and said "You know, even though there was no vote on this and both the Supreme Court and Congress is telling me this is totally illegal, I think Im going to alter the Constitution so I can stay in power for the rest of my life" Im sure nobody here (myself included) would disagree with him being removed as well.

That plus anything that makes Hugo Chavez mad is a-o-k by me. I figure the action is being condemned simply because nobody likes the military stirring the pot within their own borders.

ETA here is an op-ed piece from the WSJ, which I was just perusing. The first few paragraphs break down some of the events:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124623220955866301.html

Quote:

It seems that President Mel Zelaya miscalculated when he tried to emulate the success of his good friend Hugo in reshaping the Honduran Constitution to his liking.

That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.

The top military commander, Gen. Romeo Vásquez Velásquez, told the president that he would have to comply. Mr. Zelaya promptly fired him. The Supreme Court ordered him reinstated. Mr. Zelaya refused.

Calculating that some critical mass of Hondurans would take his side, the president decided he would run the referendum himself. So on Thursday he led a mob that broke into the military installation where the ballots from Venezuela were being stored and then had his supporters distribute them in defiance of the Supreme Court's order.

The attorney general had already made clear that the referendum was illegal, and he further announced that he would prosecute anyone involved in carrying it out. Yesterday, Mr. Zelaya was arrested by the military and is now in exile in Costa Rica.
post #6 of 18
Thread Starter 
Nice to see there are still Americans trying to live up to the stereotype.

So having a non-binding referendum about whether the next congress should amend the constitution, which was written during the last junta anyway, justifies a coup?
post #7 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
Nice to see there are still Americans trying to live up to the stereotype.

So having a non-binding referendum about whether the next congress should amend the constitution, which was written during the last junta anyway, justifies a coup?
Touche.

I dont think that alone justifies him getting kicked out. I think the Supreme Court and Congress telling him its illegal and hes liable to get thrown out on his ass if he continues and him deciding to go ahead with it may be a little bit different though.

But like I said, you could fill a stadium with what I dont know about how the Honduras system is set up. As an American, its safe to assume Ill probably consider it drastically worse than the USA, which not only rules all but also has the authority to nuke Honduras if it is so inclined.

Youre just jealous of our freedoms.
post #8 of 18
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Closer View Post
Youre just jealous of our freedoms.
True.

Anyway, international pressure seems to be working anyway and this thing will probably blow over with minimal damage. But I'm more concerned with the region as a whole. Is Chavez's continued presence in the region causing battle lines to be drawn between the two sides of the political spectrum? And why can't this region get rid of this harmful mentality?

Somehow this has affected me a lot and it's probably because of a documentary I recently watched. It was about the what happened in the first year after the dictatorship fell in Greece. In the period from 1945 to 1974 we had a three year civil war with casualties almost equal to WWII, a seven year dictatorship (heavily US supported), almost twenty different governments, constant political strife and numerous armed conflicts with Turkey. So you wouldn't say that Greece was the most stable country. Yet after the dictatorship fell in a single year we got a new constitution, a referendum that changed the government from constitutional monarchy to parliamentary democracy, the legalization of the Communist party, our first undisputed elections in decades and were well on our way to joining the EU. All this with a minimum amount of internal conflict while the Turkish invasion of Cyprus was going on. I think this happened because the conservatives finally decided to step up to the plate and settle things properly.

This why I think Latin American countries seem continually unstable. No one seems committed to permanently and irrevocably settle their conflicts. The status quo has to change in order to finally achieve stability and progress. Because when your country has 70% of its population living below the poverty line, a Chavez or a Zelaya in control are the least of the worries you should have.
post #9 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan View Post
Yeah, I have heard both what Closer and Rain Dog are saying, though it does not compute. I guess that El Captain or Tati or our other South American Chewers might shed some light on this situation. And their input is welcome as always.
I'm from Honduras.

Honduras' president (Zelaya) wanted to change the Constitution and serve for more years than allowed (in Honduras you can only serve one 4-yr term). He the proceeded to lead a referendum to change the law.

The Supreme Court and Congress ruled that as illegal because it's written in the constitution that the President can not be involved in such activities (article 239):

Quote:
"No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform, as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."
Some things in the Honduran constitution are amenable by a 2/3 vote by Congress, some are written in stone. Article 239 is one of them.

He then ignored the SC ruling and order the head of the military to distribute the ballots (the military is in charge of distributing the ballots). The Army chief refused citing the SC ruling and his ass was fired. The SC told him to reinstate the Army chief, and he refused and then had some group raid the warehouse that stored the referendum ballots.

Since the Honduran Constitution has no impeachment articles, it was then ordered by the SC and Congress to the military to arrest him and send Pajama Man packing.
post #10 of 18
Guy from a gaming forum I read has been kinda liveblogging from the Honduras, and it's pretty heartbreaking stuff: http://www.quartertothree.com/game-t...ad.php?t=53306
post #11 of 18
Thanks Nelson for sharing these thoughts.
post #12 of 18
On CNN en Espanol they're showing live footage of president Zelaya trying to cross the border into Honduras.
post #13 of 18
Things just got much worse;

"Honduras Suspends Civil Rights, Bans Protests as Talks Stall"
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=amiujFUMW.FI

Quote:
Honduras banned protests for 45 days and suspended other civil rights as talks to end a three- monthlong political crisis stalled and supporters of ousted President Manuel Zelaya planned rallies for today.

Any media that “incited” violence will be shut down, Cesar Caceres, government spokesman, said in a telephone interview late yesterday in the capital, Tegucigalpa. The military and police will be allowed to arrest anyone posing a threat, he said.
post #14 of 18
Thread Starter 
I hope those that wanted to give the benefit of the doubt to the coup, because they were "defending the constitution" feel vindicated.

Sorry if I sound a little douchey, but I hold our own Junta responsible for many of Greece's current ills and it pissed me off watching the same excuses they gave at '67 being believed in 2009.
post #15 of 18
Thread Starter 
And now Republican members of Congress travel to Honduras to offer their support to the dictatorship. Sure took them long enough.

Isn't it kind of treasonous for elected members of the government to take political action contrary to the expressly stated policy? Wouldn't the same people ask for the heads of Democrats gong to Bagdad to show support to Saddam during Iraq II? Fuck the Republican Party for not kicking them out immediately.
post #16 of 18
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
And now Republican members of Congress travel to Honduras to offer their support to the dictatorship. Sure took them long enough.

Isn't it kind of treasonous for elected members of the government to take political action contrary to the expressly stated policy? Wouldn't the same people ask for the heads of Democrats gong to Bagdad to show support to Saddam during Iraq II? Fuck the Republican Party for not kicking them out immediately.
Yeah, I'm still kind of awed by the balls on these idiots.
post #17 of 18
I'm pretty sure that's supposed to be illegal. We haven't formally recognized Honduras' new government, and a visit from some Congressmen to show support would be...well, recognition, which Congress isn't allowed to do.
post #18 of 18
...and what exactly are the dems doing about this blatant act of treason? can I guess? Can I???

Ummmmmmm... nothing perhaps?

God damn I don't know how truely progressive Americans aren't tearing their heair out by now.
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