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Whatever Happened to 2D?

post #1 of 38
7/24/09 at 2:44pm
Thread Starter 
Why the fuck do I have to go to Japan for anything resembling sprites? And if I do? It’s usually only on the Wii, if at all. Sure, I’ll occasionally find a DLC here or there (A Braid or, say, And Yet it Moves), but anything with a budget? Where is the American Odin’s Sphere, Wario Land: Shake It!, Muramasa: The Demon Blade or King of Fighters XII?

I mean, I guess the money just isn’t there, or the audience, but that doesn’t stop the industry from churning out crap like Crysis, a game that all of five people could actually run upon release. Fuck, the game that got the biggest response from Nintendo’s E3 presentation was New Super Mario Bros. Wii, that’s got to mean something, right?

What the fuck is wrong with big-budget hand drawn 1080p goodness?
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post #2 of 38
7/24/09 at 5:11pm
Girma, 2D...is just starting to make a comeback. Here are some that arrived in retail this year...
1) Street Fighter IV
2) King Of Fighters XII
3) Raiden Fighters Aces and Raiden IV 9/9
4) Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (40 titles available right away 8 unlockables)

If you have a...Wii, Tatsunoko vs Capcom is arriving later this year.
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post #3 of 38
7/24/09 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 
Sure, though, Street Fighter IV and Raiden IV are “3D,” while Raiden Fighters Aces and Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection are just a bunch of ports of ancient titles. But yes, KoF XII definitely counts, though it appears to be more like the exception that proves the rule. And really, why exactly aren’t any domestic developers throwing money at sprite based two-dimensional titles?

Even the Japanese are ditching 2D in droves, I mean, I still can’t believe Castlevania hasn’t gone back to 2D since Symphony of the Night, or that the Turtles in Time DLC was redone with 3D models.
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post #4 of 38
7/24/09 at 10:41pm
Girma, Street Fighter IV is...2D, it just has 3D backgrounds. Raiden IV is a top down shooter just like it's predecessors. While SUGC is just a compilation of classic 80's titles along with a few also rans, the cool thing is it was released on the Xbox 360, and not just relegated to the PS2 or Wii. Streets Of Rage 1-3 on the 360 is just too cool.
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post #5 of 38
7/25/09 at 12:50am
What about BlazBlue that just came out? I haven't played it, but the videos I've seen look absolutely gorgeous.
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post #6 of 38
7/25/09 at 3:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post
Girma, Street Fighter IV is...2D, it just has 3D backgrounds. Raiden IV is a top down shooter just like it's predecessors. While SUGC is just a compilation of classic 80's titles along with a few also rans, the cool thing is it was released on the Xbox 360, and not just relegated to the PS2 or Wii. Streets Of Rage 1-3 on the 360 is just too cool.
It’s really my fault for conflating 2D with hand drawn sprites, sadly I can’t rename the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polygon_Wizard View Post
What about BlazBlue that just came out? I haven't played it, but the videos I've seen look absolutely gorgeous.
I’m actually taking a long hard look at that, but seeing this genre really only represented by fighters from a couple of developers is depressing. And again, why are companies like Activision or EA not even contemplating any such title? It’s even happening in film, what with Disney all but phasing out hand drawn animation altogether.
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post #7 of 38
7/25/09 at 6:33am
Ok, here's the thing. Games don't actually need to be like reality. They don't need to be simulations. The are challenges, goals, physics, environment and rules. With the processing power that enabled 3d gaming we lost some of the pure gaming concepts.

The way Mario moves in Super Mario 3 doesn't make a lick of sense compared to the real world, but it's still an awesome game.

I'm actully think casual gaming (eg. Peggle and co) are the way the back. It's about making games that are fun instead of games that are pretending to be blockbuster movies.

Also... the DS is probably the best friend of the 2D gamer.
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post #8 of 38
7/25/09 at 9:42am
Polygon_Wizard, Oops!...I missed one.
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post #9 of 38
7/25/09 at 10:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kriegaffe View Post
I'm actully think casual gaming (eg. Peggle and co) are the way the back.
God, I love Peggle. When I read that single solitary word, my eyes kinda glazed over and I said "Aw, Peggle." out loud.

I think I need help.
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post #10 of 38
7/25/09 at 11:27am
Peggle is a very addictive gaming drug. Every time Ode to Joy plays when you clear a board, it makes you want to play at least ten more levels.
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post #11 of 38
7/25/09 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post
Girma, Street Fighter IV is...2D, it just has 3D backgrounds.
I would say they are 3D, the way they are rendered gives them more of a 2D look.

Street Fighter 2


Street Fighter 4
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post #12 of 38
7/25/09 at 3:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
I still can’t believe Castlevania hasn’t gone back to 2D since Symphony of the Night,
BUY A DS!
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post #13 of 38
7/25/09 at 5:42pm
Thread Starter 


Is fucking depressing.
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post #14 of 38
7/25/09 at 6:04pm
You guys heard of Trine? It's sorta 3d, but it's a classic left-right side-scroller, and co-op to boot.

Otherwise, I don't care if a game is in 1d, 2d, 3d, or 4d, as long as it's a good damn game.
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post #15 of 38
7/25/09 at 6:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by wydren View Post
Dawn of Sorrow is an absolute classic game in the Metroid-vania style (except for a bit of grindy-ness concerning soul collection)
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post #16 of 38
7/25/09 at 7:53pm
it's true.
If you want 2D the DS is the way to go.
Unless you want to just complain about there not being 2D games on a next gen console.
It would be a little counter productive to do 2D only on next gen wouldn't it?
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post #17 of 38
7/25/09 at 7:56pm
Tigeroovy, I don't think anyone is saying there should only be...2D games on the 360/PS3. People simply want there to be more 2D games on game systems other than the handhelds, PS2, and Wii.
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post #18 of 38
7/26/09 at 4:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tigeroovy View Post
Unless you want to just complain about there not being 2D games on a next gen console.
It would be a little counter productive to do 2D only on next gen wouldn't it?
Actually, from the demo, Splosion Man is pretty great 2D game play. It still has the 3D graphics, but it's a 2D platformer.
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post #19 of 38
7/27/09 at 11:32am
2d also gets a lot of love on the PSP...hell, "Castlevania: Dracula X Chronicles", and "Prinny: Can I really be the hero?" alone make it worth owning the system.
As for castlevania on the DS, "Dawn of sorrow" is great, but "Portrait of Ruin" and "Order of Ecclessia" both trumpt it because they have none of the stylus or touch screen features...just pure 2d joy.
And one look at Blazblue or the new KOF makes it evident that smooth, high definition 2d can own a lot of 3d out there.
Its all about the gameplay and the visual style of a game.
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post #20 of 38
7/27/09 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post


Is fucking depressing.
Im actually getting only a 4000 MS points card this month, and its going to be used on "marvel vs capcom 2", the Fallout 3 and Red Faction expansions and "Shadow Complex"...the TMNT remake just felt wrong for me once i saw it in motion.
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post #21 of 38
7/27/09 at 11:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girma View Post
Sure, though, Street Fighter IV and Raiden IV are “3D,” while Raiden Fighters Aces and Sonic’s Ultimate Genesis Collection are just a bunch of ports of ancient titles. But yes, KoF XII definitely counts, though it appears to be more like the exception that proves the rule. And really, why exactly aren’t any domestic developers throwing money at sprite based two-dimensional titles?

Even the Japanese are ditching 2D in droves, I mean, I still can’t believe Castlevania hasn’t gone back to 2D since Symphony of the Night, or that the Turtles in Time DLC was redone with 3D models.
I am neither a developer nor a video game producer, but I have a feeling hand-animating 2D sprites at the quality and resolution that would be necessary today is time-consuming and expensive, relative to the demand for the actual product.
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post #22 of 38
7/27/09 at 12:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Floyd View Post
I am neither a developer nor a video game producer, but I have a feeling hand-animating 2D sprites at the quality and resolution that would be necessary today is time-consuming and expensive, relative to the demand for the actual product.
And you would be correct. While i don't work on console games (cellphone/Iphone), i know for a fact that it is faster/more productive to use 3D models.

KIng of Fighters XII took four years to make, and it is the most expensive 2D fighter ever - and that's for a bare-bones 22 characters game. Even if they used all their sprite artists on the same character at the same time, it still took 50 days to finish one character.

Compare that to the cheaper, 3D KOF: Maximum Impact 2, which had 40 characters, anime, bonus games and all that crap, which took less than 2 years to make.

There's a reason Street Fighter 3 made Capcom shelve the SF series for a decade, and brought it back on 3D. SF3 was (then) the most expensive fighter they had ever done, and it never recouped its costs.

That's why BlazBlue has half the number of characters (and half the number of frames of animation!) KOF XII has (they hide it pretty well - have been perfecting this since GG, with dust, dashing, smoke, fire, sparkles, etc).
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post #23 of 38
7/27/09 at 5:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orin_Quon View Post
There's a reason Street Fighter 3 made Capcom shelve the SF series for a decade, and brought it back on 3D. SF3 was (then) the most expensive fighter they had ever done, and it never recouped its costs.
And it shows, I bought it for the Dreamcast and the PS2 (Anniversary Collection) and dumped an innumerable number of quarters into that fucking classic. Easily the best entry in the entire series.
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post #24 of 38
7/27/09 at 6:07pm
Girma, I'll take...Street Fighter II over SF3.
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post #25 of 38
7/27/09 at 7:12pm
PSN and live have 2d games. Briad, Dishwasher dead sumaria, and some others coming out on the horizon.l
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post #26 of 38
7/27/09 at 8:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post
Girma, I'll take...Street Fighter II over SF3.
And that’s fine, though, I should have specified 3rd Strike.

I loved Street Fighter II when it came out, and its varying incarnations, never warmed up to the Alpha series, thought the individual entries in the VS. series were fun diversions, but come 1999? Street Fighter III basically perfected all of the disparate elements scattered amongst them, introduced the Parry system, and had the best art—by far.
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post #27 of 38
7/27/09 at 9:14pm
Girma, Street Fighter III did leave out most of the regulars of the multiple editions of...Street Fighter II.
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post #28 of 38
7/27/09 at 10:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post
Girma, Street Fighter III did leave out most of the regulars of the multiple editions of...Street Fighter II.
And SF 2 left out most of the regulars of SF 1.

Personally, i think SFIV was a major cop-out and a mediocre game at best.
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post #29 of 38
7/27/09 at 10:51pm
You guys are speaking my language. 3rd Strike is a damned masterpiece that is neglected only because it didn't fall back on the crutch of well-loved character designs. The only crucial mistake I can see is replacing the ultimate bad-ass Guile with an indeterminate gender emo guy.

That being said, Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix is a sight to behold, and my Dee Jay a weapon of great power.

SFIV pretends that III never happened, and mucks up the proceedings with the silly revenge gauge and the poorly implemented 'focus' system. Give me parrying or give me straight up SF2 ass whooping, there is no need for a half-assed compromised.

The real cost in 2D is animating all the capture frames, but this applies to 3D fighters as well. Look at the interstitial animations for Virtua Fighter 5:R and vanilla VF5 and there is a huge difference. Too bad Sega is fucking incompetent and hateful and won't let me play VF5:R! I want it so baaaaaaaad!
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post #30 of 38
7/27/09 at 11:15pm
Orin Quon, I suppose that is true but it was...Street Fighter II was a huge hit, not the first one. Leaving out most of the original cast was I think a mistake. I would place the order of the Street Fighter franchise as...
1) Street Fighter II
2) Street Fighter IV
3) Street Fighter III

I did not care about either Alpha, or the 3D SF games, or Street Fighter I.
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post #31 of 38
7/27/09 at 11:25pm
Fleed! While your opinions often diverge, on this matter you are simply wrong. SF3:Third Strike and Street Fighter Alpha 2 Gold are leagues beyond the flash-bang appeal of the markedly limited SFIV fighting engine.

SF2 is fine at the top spot, if you consider it as a totality (that is, Street Fighter 2 through SSF2tHDremix). Certain characters in certain editions are woefully imbalanced (Championship Edition E. Honda, for example). But, of course, Third Strikes features the zany superpowers of Chun Li and Makoto, so I cannot hold it against the entry.

In my opinion, IV would have been better served by selecting the cream of the Street Fighter crop (Dudley vs. Balrog/M.Bison is NO CONTEST!) and utilizing aspects of all the series, instead of the stupid Revenge Meter and SF2CE caliber setup game.
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post #32 of 38
7/28/09 at 4:19am
Because I live in a retarded country SF III:TS was not released on Dreamcast or PS2. I did get SF III and second strike for DC. The art was probably the best 2D animation I can think of in a video game.
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post #33 of 38
7/28/09 at 7:05am
Besides KOF XII for 360 and PS3, there's a gorgeous 2D old-school 90's style platformer game coming for the Wii:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHg7R...eature=related

The sprites look like paintings.

Anyway, some eye-candy:

KOF XII:



Garou:



SF III:



AOF 3:



Those are the 2D fighters with best animation.

SF3 > AOF3 > KOF XII = Garou

It should be noted that three of those four games did not recoup the production costs. KOF XII is pretty recent (it's being released on console today, in fact), so jury's still out. But frankly, i really doubt it'll recover the 4 years of production.
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post #34 of 38
7/28/09 at 7:19am
Compare those to the shitty animation and "shading" of Guilty Gear, BlazBlue or any of the ArcS games.

vs KOF XII -->

They do a good job hiding it all behind the effects, dashing and so on, though.

Also, the KOF XII site has a nice explanation on how 2D pixel art is created.

http://kofaniv.snkplaymore.co.jp/eng.../art/index.php
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post #35 of 38
7/28/09 at 8:05am
I thought SFIV looked like utter shit until I saw it in motion. It also feels like a remake(of SFII) more than a new entry in the series. They really should have done more with it. It's fun, don't get me wrong, and frankly I think it's more fun than Third Strike, but that game really deserved better.

Muramasa has me drooling. Is it out in Japan yet? I want reviews!
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post #36 of 38
7/28/09 at 8:27am
I prefer SVC Chaos SNK vs Capcom to...Street Fighter III as well!

Even though...Tatsunoko vs Capcom is a...Wii exclusive, hopefully it is a hit so the 360 and PS3 can either get a sequel or another Capcom vs game. Tatsunoko vs Capcom would easilly be my favorite game of 2009, just based on the trailers, as well as the ability to control some of my favorite anime characters like, Ken The Eagle + Jun The Swan from Gatchaman, Casshan Robo Hunter, Tekkaman Blade and of course SFII characters Chun Li and Ryu.
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post #37 of 38
7/29/09 at 10:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus-7 View Post
I thought SFIV looked like utter shit until I saw it in motion. It also feels like a remake(of SFII) more than a new entry in the series. They really should have done more with it. It's fun, don't get me wrong, and frankly I think it's more fun than Third Strike, but that game really deserved better.

Muramasa has me drooling. Is it out in Japan yet? I want reviews!
It’s actually coming out September 8th: http://www.amazon.com/Muramasa-Demon.../dp/B001HB7K6I

No idea if it’s any good, but anything that even remotely reminds me of SOTN is worth a preorder.
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post #38 of 38
8/5/09 at 9:57pm
Amazing interview about 2D games, HD and the hardships of sprite creation today. The interview is with the creators of Muramasa (they discuss The King of Fighters XII, too):

http://tinyurl.com/nv3wos
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