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Back to the Future Franchise question...

post #1 of 212
Thread Starter 
Revisiting this series...

In part 2, why does old Biff return the DeLorean to the future? And if he went into the past to give young Biff the almanac prior to this scene, why does't the future change (into a hell hole) around Doc & Marty, like Doc "promises" will happen around Jennifer as she sleeps on the porch when/if they "fix" 1985?
post #2 of 212
Let it go, Indiana, let it go.
post #3 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Revisiting this series...

In part 2, why does old Biff return the DeLorean to the future? And if he went into the past to give young Biff the almanac prior to this scene, why does't the future change (into a hell hole) around Doc & Marty, like Doc "promises" will happen around Jennifer as she sleeps on the porch when/if they "fix" 1985?
That's commie talk.
post #4 of 212
It's pretty much the only major plot hole in the entire BTTF Trilogy, one which was partially explained in a deleted scene in which Old Biff is erased from existence shortly after his return to the original timeline, as if time is catching up to his actions, allowing this brief gap in temporal logic.

Or something.
post #5 of 212
I'd say its something of a shockwave type thing. Like how Marty didn't just instantly disappear when he stopped his parent's from meeting. His siblings then him slowly disappeared, until he fixed things. So the space time continuum seems to be a bit lazy, and might not have reached 2015 yet.
Also I believe Biff dies before 2015 in the new timeline (I believe that was the explanation in the deleted scene but I don't really remember right now, though I do know Old Biff, obviously in pain when he gets out of the time machine, is supposed to go behind the dumpster and disappear) so things could had gone back to a sort of normalcy. Hill Dale would still have existed and it was already a breeding ground for tranqs, lobos, and zipheads, so would Biff's interaction have changed that? Marty and Doc had already left the house by the time Biff had gotten back, so Future Marty might not even have existed by the time they got there. Because they have pulled themselves out of the timeline, Marty and Doc don't seem to be as affected by it (as Doc says things seem to transform around them, except for the whole Marty almost erasing himself thing).

What I sometimes wonder is does it mean there are two Martys and two Docs in that alternate 1985? Was there a Marty who was still at boarding school, or did that Marty cease to exist?
post #6 of 212
Thread Starter 
But why did old Biff go back at all and return the DeLorean? Why not leave them stranded? The guy's a butthead bully who throws kids' balls up on roofs and rapes women in parking lots.
post #7 of 212
The way I view timelines/travel is one line that can bend back on it self if something is altered. The events of the previous world needed to happen to create the new world. That being said with the first movie, Marty disappears slowly for dramatic effect and story convenience. Use that reason for whatever happens in the movies.

Biff going back to the future in part II probably makes sense with the whole time line hadn't diverged yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
But why did old Biff go back at all and return the DeLorean? Why not leave them stranded? The guy's a butthead bully who throws kids' balls up on roofs and rapes women in parking lots.
Maybe he wanted to see how he turned out? He probably returned it to throw off suspicion that it went somewhere (although couldn't Doc just look at the dash?).
post #8 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmus Configuration View Post
It's pretty much the only major plot hole in the entire BTTF Trilogy,
Well I'm pretty sure that's just not true. The first one is basically plot hole free, but the second is littered with them. That was pretty apparent the last time I watched it.

The script to the first one is pretty much perfect. Structure wise that is.
post #9 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
The guy's a butthead bully who throws kids' balls up on roofs and rapes women in parking lots.
For that matter, at the end of the first movie, why are the McFlys still friendly with the dude that tried to rape the mom?
post #10 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMR View Post
For that matter, at the end of the first movie, why are the McFlys still friendly with the dude that tried to rape the mom?
DARKMITE had a great post about this in the Other Marty McFly thread.
post #11 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeShaynePI
What I sometimes wonder is does it mean there are two Martys and two Docs in that alternate 1985? Was there a Marty who was still at boarding school, or did that Marty cease to exist?
Of course there is. The other ones don't disappear. They existed before there were any future anomolies. The two Marty's in 1985 prove it.

I'm gonna go talk to my very real girlfriend now. I feel dirty.
post #12 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
But why did old Biff go back at all and return the DeLorean? Why not leave them stranded? The guy's a butthead bully who throws kids' balls up on roofs and rapes women in parking lots.
Perhaps he mistakenly thought he could enjoy the spoils of Young Biff's betting spree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy
Well I'm pretty sure that's just not true. The first one is basically plot hole free, but the second is littered with them. That was pretty apparent the last time I watched it.
I dunno, what specific holes were there in BTTF 2 or 3 besides the one already mentioned? None are coming to mind.
post #13 of 212
How about...why didn't Doc know he was going back to 1885, when Marty told his 1955 counterpart, and how come the 1985 counterpart didn't know Marty was going to come back to 1885 dressed like an idiot because he dressed him like that?

It is littered with tons of holes, but it's still totally awesome.
post #14 of 212
I was watching the Pirates trilogy recently and for some reason out of all the trilogies it reminded me of this one, at least quality wise. You have the first film which is pretty much a perfect standalone film. Also both kind of came out of nowhere and were total surprises on their initial releases.

Both series second and third films were written and filmed together, and were designed as a two part film. The second film in both series is kind of a mess but totally enjoyable. They also both have interesting ideas and set up which should have been interesting conclusions.

Then the third film is a total bore (I know I'm in the minority when it comes to BTTF 3). The third film also seems to be the most divisive film in both series also. Though I guess some would argue BTTF2 is the most divisive of that series.
post #15 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litmus Configuration View Post
I dunno, what specific holes were there in BTTF 2 or 3 besides the one already mentioned? None are coming to mind.
If Marty and Jennifer left 1985 with Doc, how was there a future in 2015 for them to have kids? They disappeared from the timeline.
post #16 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post
If Marty and Jennifer left 1985 with Doc, how was there a future in 2015 for them to have kids? They disappeared from the timeline.
Good catch. But that represents a plot hole in BTTF 1.
post #17 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post
If Marty and Jennifer left 1985 with Doc, how was there a future in 2015 for them to have kids? They disappeared from the timeline.
Wasn't that explained as that they would eventually come back to 1985 after traveling to 2015 so that the timeline would just continue as usual anyway.
post #18 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
Wasn't that explained as that they would eventually come back to 1985 after traveling to 2015 so that the timeline would just continue as usual anyway.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would only be if time is linear, which is a theory of time travel that Back To The Future doesn't subscribe to.
post #19 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but that would only be if time is linear, which is a theory of time travel that Back To The Future doesn't subscribe to.
True.

In fact, I just looked up Bob Gale's own answer to that paradox (among others)

Q: When Doc takes Marty and Jennifer out of 1985 and brings them to the future, how can Old Marty and Old Jennifer (and their family) even be in the future? Wouldn't their disappearance from 1985 instantaneously erase their future?

A: To be honest, yes, it very well should erase their existence from the future. This is, in fact, the ultimate paradox of Back to the Future Part II. We really thought about this one for a long time, but we finally decided that after the set-up of Doc saying "Something's got to be done about your kids," the audience would feel cheated if we went to the future and found out they didn't exist. You could, however, argue that existence of Old Marty, Old Jennifer and their kids in the future automatically proves that young Marty and Jennifer will eventually get back to 1985. The flaw in this reasoning is that Doc repeatedly tells us that the future isn't written, so why would this part of the future be "written?" Ah, but Back to the Future Part III may contain the answer to this question after all. When Doc spots the tombstone in 1885 and sees that the name on the photograph of the tombstone has vanished but the date remains, he says "We know this photograph represents what will happen if the events of today continue to run their course into tomorrow." That's a pretty big "if." And it suggests that time travel to the future always takes you to a future based on the events of the time you left -- a logical extrapolation of what the future of that moment holds. Of course, the existence of free will allows for the possibility of infinite futures, which is what Doc says at the end of Back to the Future Part III: "Your future is whatever you make it." But time travel into the future takes you to the most likely future of the moment you left.

http://www.bttf.com/film_faq.htm
post #20 of 212
You gotta wonder if not getting into that drag race would pretty much negate everything that happened in 2 and 3. If Marty didn't become a complete loser, would that change the life of his son? Seemed to work for Dave and Linda. So if Marty Jr wasn't a complete loser he probably wouldn't have had a problem with Griff, Doc would have never gone back in time and taken Marty to the future, Old Biff would have never stolen the Sport's Almanac, the delorean would have never gotten struck by lightning, and Doc would have never met Clara and had Jules and Verne.

I think its best to think of it that time in a line where everything already exists (past, present, future), and every time something is changed it creates another line branched off from it. The previous line still exists, and can be reached if you go back before the break, but as long as events continue as they've been set you'll still continue on into that break. So even though Marty has left the previous time stream, I think lame Marty still exists in the previous timeline. It's just impossible to get to. Or something...

EDIT: In regards to what Gale said about Doc telling us the future isn't written that's obviously not true. The future is written. It can just be revised. That's essentially what the time machine is. A revision machine. He only says that bs at the end of Part 3 about the future not being written to sound all positive.
post #21 of 212
There's another plot hole in BTTF 2. When the DeLorean is struck by lightning at the end of the film and travels back to 1885, it is clearly not going 88 mph. It's simply hovering. Discuss.
post #22 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy View Post
I was watching the Pirates trilogy recently and for some reason out of all the trilogies it reminded me of this one, at least quality wise. You have the first film which is pretty much a perfect standalone film. Also both kind of came out of nowhere and were total surprises on their initial releases.

Both series second and third films were written and filmed together, and were designed as a two part film. The second film in both series is kind of a mess but totally enjoyable. They also both have interesting ideas and set up which should have been interesting conclusions.

Then the third film is a total bore (I know I'm in the minority when it comes to BTTF 3). The third film also seems to be the most divisive film in both series also. Though I guess some would argue BTTF2 is the most divisive of that series.
Also see The Matrix trilogy.

Bob Gale's comments, "time travel to the future always takes you to a future based on the events of the time you left" contradicts part II. Surely Old Biff would have returned to the scummy version of Hill Valley in 2015 with Biff's ridiculous tower etc?

I'd loved to have seen what 'Boarding School Marty' was like, would he have been a privileged, rich kid wanker?
post #23 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post
There's another plot hole in BTTF 2. When the DeLorean is struck by lightning at the end of the film and travels back to 1885, it is clearly not going 88 mph. It's simply hovering. Discuss.
The lightning short circuited the flux capacitor. Doc Brown mentions it in his telegram to Marty at the end of BTTF 2 and in BTTF 3. He sends back instructions on how to fix it using parts his 1950's counterpart can acquire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Oysterburger
Bob Gale's comments, "time travel to the future always takes you to a future based on the events of the time you left" contradicts part II. Surely Old Biff would have returned to the scummy version of Hill Valley in 2015 with Biff's ridiculous tower etc?
That was a thing that was cut out of BTTF2. Right after Old Biff returned to the time stream he left, he disappeared because he didn't exist anymore in that new time stream. And remember, you saw Biff's future in 1985, not 2015. Since he disappeared in 2015, that means he died sometime before then, which could have led to a similar 2015 that already existed. Or it was just a plothole.
post #24 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post
There's another plot hole in BTTF 2. When the DeLorean is struck by lightning at the end of the film and travels back to 1885, it is clearly not going 88 mph. It's simply hovering. Discuss.
I asked the same question in an older thread (that I can't find) and someone said that the lightning strike caused the tires to spin up to 88 miles per hour. The strike also caused the Delorean to roll or spin in place. This can be seen in the "99" shaped fire tracks it leaves behind. Maybe it did so at 88 miles per hour?

...and end wank.
post #25 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post
There's another plot hole in BTTF 2. When the DeLorean is struck by lightning at the end of the film and travels back to 1885, it is clearly not going 88 mph. It's simply hovering. Discuss.
It was rotating at 88 mph+. That's why the tire streaks left behind are all twisty.
post #26 of 212
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMR View Post
For that matter, at the end of the first movie, why are the McFlys still friendly with the dude that tried to rape the mom?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Rewatched part 1 one recently. I've seen it a million times, but it didn't occur to me till this viewing that Lorraine doesn't mind having a rapist (or attempted-rapist) around the house at the end (in the NEW future). She doesn't seem to be bothered with Biff around her their kids, or their property/possessions. Either...

A. Knowing that George decked him in HS, she feels relatively safe.
B. She doesn't have to lift a finger around the house (he washes the car!).
C. She's got post-traumatic Stockholm Syndrome and has turned it around into some S&M shit on the side.
D. All of the above.
...
post #27 of 212
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
But time travel into the future takes you to the most likely future of the moment you left.
So why was old Jennifer surprised to see young Jennifer then, if they most likely went back to 1985 to continue their lives (get married/have kids)?
post #28 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
Rewatched part 1 one recently. I've seen it a million times, but it didn't occur to me till this viewing that Lorraine doesn't mind having a rapist (or attempted-rapist) around the house at the end (in the NEW future). She doesn't seem to be bothered with Biff around her their kids, or their property/possessions. Either...

A. Knowing that George decked him in HS, she feels relatively safe.
B. She doesn't have to lift a finger around the house (he washes the car!).
C. She's got post-traumatic Stockholm Syndrome and has turned it around into some S&M shit on the side.
D. All of the above.
Always figured in the original timeline, Lorraine had a couple of flings with Biff over the years. Could explain the drinking problem.
post #29 of 212
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie View Post
Always figured in the original timeline, Lorraine had a couple of flings with Biff over the years. Could explain the drinking problem.
And in the final timeline, he's Lorraine's rapee. Way to make lemonade from life's lemons, Mom!
post #30 of 212
The "final" version of George McFly probaby slept around with his students and was never at home for the kids growing up. Hence Marty getting a brand new truck as a present for his fuck-trip with Jennifer.

Didn't he become a college professor/popular fictional author?
post #31 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by woodsy View Post
I was watching the Pirates trilogy recently and for some reason out of all the trilogies it reminded me of this one, at least quality wise. You have the first film which is pretty much a perfect standalone film. Also both kind of came out of nowhere and were total surprises on their initial releases.

Both series second and third films were written and filmed together, and were designed as a two part film. The second film in both series is kind of a mess but totally enjoyable. They also both have interesting ideas and set up which should have been interesting conclusions.
I never really put it together before but the second of all the big trilogies (Star Wars, Back to the Future, Matrix, Pirates) has one of the main characters "disappearing" at the end for the cliffhanger only for the rest of the characters to rescue him at the beginning of the third film (ie. Han Solo, Doc, Neo, Jack Sparrow).
post #32 of 212
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
I never really put it together before but the second of all the big trilogies (Star Wars, Back to the Future, Matrix, Pirates) has one of the main characters "disappearing" at the end for the cliffhanger only for the rest of the characters to rescue him at the beginning of the third film (ie. Han Solo, Doc, Neo, Jack Sparrow).
Yeah, LOTR had to buck the trend and put that at the end of the 1st flick (Merry and Pippin).
post #33 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martianman View Post
The lightning short circuited the flux capacitor. Doc Brown mentions it in his telegram to Marty at the end of BTTF 2 and in BTTF 3. He sends back instructions on how to fix it using parts his 1950's counterpart can acquire.
You clearly can't read. What does the 1955 counterpart fixing things have to do with anything? And how would a short circuited flux capacitor make it work better (by not requiring you to move at 88mph)?
post #34 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post
So why was old Jennifer surprised to see young Jennifer then, if they most likely went back to 1985 to continue their lives (get married/have kids)?
All I can assume here is both Marty and Jennifer got amnesia in that accident with the Roll's Royce, forgetting the last couple days at least.
post #35 of 212
I think Marty's brother and sister look like much worse people in the final timeline rather than the original. His brother espeically looks like a coke snorting, corporate banker tosser. Although it was the 80's I suppose...
post #36 of 212
Basically the McFlys turned into an amalgam of the Bushes/Kennedys.
post #37 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
I never really put it together before but the second of all the big trilogies (Star Wars, Back to the Future, Matrix, Pirates) has one of the main characters "disappearing" at the end for the cliffhanger only for the rest of the characters to rescue him at the beginning of the third film (ie. Han Solo, Doc, Neo, Jack Sparrow).
Who disappears in the Matrix?
post #38 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Oysterburger View Post
I think Marty's brother and sister look like much worse people in the final timeline rather than the original. His brother espeically looks like a coke snorting, corporate banker tosser. Although it was the 80's I suppose...
Instead of a coke snorting, McDonalds employee. At least the sister was getting laid in the new timeline as opposed to the old.
post #39 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Ripoll View Post
Who disappears in the Matrix?
Neo's "mind". Trapped between the two worlds in that subway station. (Han being trapped in carbonite in Jabba's palace, Doc trapped in 1885 and Jack Sparrow trapped in the land of the dead). All subsequently getting "rescued" by the other main characters.
post #40 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
Neo's "mind". Trapped between the two worlds in that subway station. (Han being trapped in carbonite in Jabba's palace, Doc trapped in 1885 and Jack Sparrow trapped in the land of the dead). All subsequently getting "rescued" by the other main characters.
I was going to say "the audience" myself.
post #41 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Oysterburger View Post
I think Marty's brother and sister look like much worse people in the final timeline rather than the original. His brother espeically looks like a coke snorting, corporate banker tosser. Although it was the 80's I suppose...
If he was a success in the business world why is he still living at his parents' house? That's always bothered me. Unless he just comes over every day for breakfast, which would also be weird.
post #42 of 212
Here's what I always wondered: Doc goes back to 1885, sends Marty the telegram, and buries the DeLorean. 1955 Doc and Marty dig it up and send Marty back. Marty runs out of gas, forcing them to use the train to push the DeLorean up to 88mph.

But isn't there a DeLorean that Doc buried still sitting out there? If Doc can exist in both 1885 and 1955, surely the DeLorean can too. They could have just siphoned the gas out of the buried car, topped off the other one, and sent everybody home.
post #43 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
But isn't there a DeLorean that Doc buried still sitting out there? If Doc can exist in both 1885 and 1955, surely the DeLorean can too. They could have just siphoned the gas out of the buried car, topped off the other one, and sent everybody home.
That's oustanding. I never thought of that.
post #44 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson View Post
But isn't there a DeLorean that Doc buried still sitting out there? If Doc can exist in both 1885 and 1955, surely the DeLorean can too. They could have just siphoned the gas out of the buried car, topped off the other one, and sent everybody home.
But they would have created another paradox because then 1955 Marty wouldn't have had the fuel to go back to 1885 in the first place.
post #45 of 212
So Doc goes to a gas station with a fuel can.
post #46 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
But they would have created another paradox because then 1955 Marty wouldn't have had the fuel to go back to 1885 in the first place.
They could've just filled up at the Texaco where six guys come out to clean/service your car.
post #47 of 212
What version of the car is in 1955 in that movie, is it the one that needs nuclear power, garbage or regular fuel? I forget.
post #48 of 212
didn't the lightning bolt take out the Mr. Fusion reactor and the flight ability? If so, then it would have to be gas.
post #49 of 212
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Oysterburger View Post
I think Marty's brother and sister look like much worse people in the final timeline rather than the original. His brother espeically looks like a coke snorting, corporate banker tosser. Although it was the 80's I suppose...
I always liked how the sister basically turned into a whore, and the movie posits it as a positive development for the character because now she's popular!
post #50 of 212
In that version, "Mr. Fusion powers the time circuits and the flux capacitor but the internal combustion engine runs on ordinary gasoline, it always has."

The car in part three is always the car from the lightning strike in part two, there's only two versions of the car.
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