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Chirac: Bush was a nutjob

post #1 of 42
8/7/09 at 8:35pm
Thread Starter 
http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...ge=haught_29_5

Holy shit.

Quote:
Incredibly, President George W. Bush told French President Jacques Chirac in early 2003 that Iraq must be invaded to thwart Gog and Magog, the Bible’s satanic agents of the Apocalypse.
Honest. This isn’t a joke. The president of the United States, in a top-secret phone call to a major European ally, asked for French troops to join American soldiers in attacking Iraq as a mission from God.
Now out of office, Chirac recounts that the American leader appealed to their “common faith” (Christianity) and told him: “Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East…. The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled…. This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people’s enemies before a New Age begins.”
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post #2 of 42
8/7/09 at 11:24pm
The missiles are flying. Hallelujah, Hallelujah!
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post #3 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:46am
You know, even though I'm fully aware that the Bush administration's popularity was built on a basis of god bothering, and though I don't have much trouble believing that Dubbya is a pretty fundie x-ian himself, I somehow always assumed that even though most of the big players might have some pretty crazy religious ideas at the end of the day the focus on religion was more for marketing reasons than anything else and that when it came to making serious decisions the actual motivations would be imperialism, greed, geopolitical interests, etc. I suppose partly I thought that because the idea of the world's most powerful nation being run by a corrupt, power hungry group of misfits is still always less scary than the idea of it being run by people who believe that they have divinity on their side. I guess because varying degrees of "pragmatic" scumbagness are sort of inescapable within govt, but when you've got ideological fanatics in power shit always goes down in the worst possible way.

(all thsi assuming that Chiraq wasn't making this up/embellishing, which isn't impossible)
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post #4 of 42
8/8/09 at 10:28am
This sounds like BS.
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post #5 of 42
8/8/09 at 10:57am
Nah, it wasn't marketing for Dubya. Maybe for Reagan. But Dubya was a true believe, either that or it's the most ingenious and complete prank pulled by anyone.

And I wouldn't be surprised if this were completely true. He'd already said he gets his orders from a higher power, and many other nutty religous statements, to prove he's a fundamentalist, just like the ones he was trying to fight.
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post #6 of 42
8/8/09 at 11:12am
That's the thing with Bush, even the nuttiest descriptions of his beliefs or behaviour seem well within the realm of the plausible.
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post #7 of 42
8/8/09 at 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica View Post
This sounds like BS.
I dunno, according to BoingBoing talkback research, what can be established as fact is that Thomas Romer really did get a request from Chirac's office enquiring about certain Bible-speak from Bush. As to the nature of the phone conversation, we'll just have to take Chirac's word for it, but the fact that Chirac is somewhat corroborating Romer's own claim is certainly...uh, worrying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IWOOD @ Boingboing
In other words: Thomas Römer received a request from the the head of the Biblical Service of the Protestant Federation of France, who requested that he provide information on a specific topic which would then be conveyed to the office of the French President. The theologian fulfilled that request with a one-page monograph. He did not speak to President Chirac. He did not speak to President Bush.

Römer then speculated as to the nature of the conversation between the French and American Presidents based on what he was told by someone who was not, herself, privy to that conversation. This speculation was then published under the title, "Early 2003: Chirac asks theologian to explain George W. Bush's reference to Gog and Magog."
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post #8 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:29pm
This does sound slightly dubious for a few reasons:

A. What Daniel mentioned - even if Bush himself believed this stuff, he and his administration seemed to act too pragmatically self-serving most of the time for me to fully buy him using "Gog and Magog" as a means to convince foreign leaders to commit to the war.

B. Most fundies have no idea what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to the Bible. I find it difficult to believe that Bush, not a theologian by any means, would have had those references to deploy at will. It would be less of a stretch if the claims were just that he said something about the end times or something. But "Gog and Magog"? Kind of obscure for Dubya.

C. Chirac needed a professor of theology to explain what Gog and Magog are? Seems like Google might have done the trick there.
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post #9 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:43pm
I think the point isnt that Bush was using his religion to further the Iraq agenda, its that he was mindlessly mentioning it to other world leaders in the first place, as if it just vomitted from his mouth like diarrhea before he could control himself. We all know he cant lead shit, the Rove and the rest were in the driving seat, the quest for profit, oil and American presence in a strategic area, etc, etc. This is more about his character than foreign policy.

I have no trouble believing this, I mean if he can waffle on about his faith to the public via the podium or televised interview, what's hard to believe about him mentioning it to another world leader in a phone conversation? And hey, if you've got access to theologists, then use them, I dont see Chirac hopping online to check out Wikipedia after having listened to the most powerful man in the world regale his ears with alarming promises of armageddon.
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post #10 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:45pm
You know what? In this I think I'll take Chirac's word. He's not some fringe dwelling loon.
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post #11 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
But "Gog and Magog"? Kind of obscure for Dubya.

That's the part that gets me. I seriously doubt Chimpy knows the first thing about theology.
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post #12 of 42
8/8/09 at 12:49pm
Hm, is he a nut job for starting wars because he thinks something called "gog" is teaming up with his super BFF "magog" to stir up shit in the desert? (i could have sworn Gog was a teenage mutant ninja turtles villan, like Krang) Or is he (and by extension, all religious folks) a nut job because he thinks "Gog" is a fucking actual thing thats exists and isnt totally made up?
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post #13 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognizant View Post
I think the point isnt that Bush was using his religion to further the Iraq agenda, its that he was mindlessly mentioning it to other world leaders in the first place, as if it just vomitted from his mouth like diarrhea before he could control himself. We all know he cant lead shit, the Rove and the rest were in the driving seat, the quest for profit, oil and American presence in a strategic area, etc, etc. This is more about his character than foreign policy.

I have no trouble believing this, I mean if he can waffle on about his faith to the public via the podium or televised interview, what's hard to believe about him mentioning it to another world leader in a phone conversation?
Not much of a comparsion, I think. You can't hold the same standards for talking to the public and talking to world leaders. Any politician of stature is more than used to delivering platitudes, religious and otherwise, to the public, and religious rhetoric really isn't anything new for US presidents to indulge in (much though it might piss off a certain segment of the population - the one it panders to is larger); but when you phone up the leader of a country and ask him to join a war you're pretty much expected to talk straight and leave the rhetoric at home.

And if Rove et al were pulling the strings so masterfully, they sure as hell should have tried to prep Dubbya not to make mistakes like that.

(I'm still not sure, and don't think I ever will be, of how much of George W. Bush's dumbass persona is real; I mean he was extremley convincing with it, but it also has to be kept in mind that it beneffited him to play up to it, "goofy guy you want to have a beer with" and all.)
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post #14 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:20pm
Gog and Magog has been common in the religious right prophecy circle for decades so it is not a surprise that Bush would be familiar with those two terms. Throw theology out the window when it comes to the fundies because Gog and Magog have been a boon to prophecy phonies to boost book sales and speaking engagements at churches all over the country. John Hagee and Hal Lindsey are just two that come to mind who use Gog and Magog all the time on their television shows and in books when they discuss prophecy.
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post #15 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
A. What Daniel mentioned - even if Bush himself believed this stuff, he and his administration seemed to act too pragmatically self-serving most of the time for me to fully buy him using "Gog and Magog" as a means to convince foreign leaders to commit to the war.
I have no doubt that there colonialists in the Cabinet who exploited religious motivations at home pretty cynically, but if Bush was one of them, he's as great a sleight-of-hand artist as the old Chinese guy in The Prestige. It's remarkable to me that we don't have anecdotes about Bush breaking character in office.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
B. Most fundies have no idea what the fuck they're talking about when it comes to the Bible. I find it difficult to believe that Bush, not a theologian by any means, would have had those references to deploy at will. It would be less of a stretch if the claims were just that he said something about the end times or something. But "Gog and Magog"? Kind of obscure for Dubya.
I've spent most of my life breathing the air as some of these people. Your stereotypical modern fundamentalist might think Jesus spoke English, advocated for the death penalty, and hated the unemployed, but by Jove they know every kaiju monster character in Revelations.
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post #16 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
Gog and Magog has been common in the religious right prophecy circle for decades so it is not a surprise that Bush would be familiar with those two terms. Throw theology out the window when it comes to the fundies because Gog and Magog have been a boon to prophecy phonies to boost book sales and speaking engagements at churches all over the country. John Hagee and Hal Lindsey are just two that come to mind who use Gog and Magog all the time on their television shows and in books when they discuss prophecy.
Thankfully I live in Massachusetts, and here we toss people who believe in "Gog" into boston harbor. This is absolutely insane. Are these people even christian? This sounds fully pagan, all these little demigods running around wreaking havoc. i thought there was god, and he was you know, THE ONE TRUE GOD. how can there be other supernatural beings? how powerful is god compared to them? who made Mog (or whatever the frack its called)?! 'And on the 7th day, god rested. He took a nap and then got up and made 'Mogog" and this other thing called "Gog".... THEN he was done!"

Had bush ever gotten a third term, i am certain we would have been sending cia wet teams to pankot palace. you know, cause bush heard Kali was stirring up shit and stealing magic rocks.

How utterly frightening. Men like the former govenor of Tx (he was never the president) who had the cia put bible quotes (all doom and gloom-y ones too) on his confidential breifings, and men like eric prince, who set up Xe as a modern day crusader force, all should have been tossed into the harbor long ago.
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post #17 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eileen View Post
John Hagee and Hal Lindsey are just two that come to mind who use Gog and Magog all the time on their television shows and in books when they discuss prophecy.
I wasn't aware of that. Thanks.
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post #18 of 42
8/8/09 at 2:58pm
Besides Gog and Magog are not really Iraq or Iran, but southern Russia. Tatars, Scythians, and Khazars, are historically the descendants of Gog, and their land are western Kazakhstan, eastern Ukraine, Azerbaijan, large portions of the Northern Caucasus ( Circassia, Dagestan, Chechnya), parts of Georgia and the Crimea.
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post #19 of 42
8/8/09 at 3:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Thankfully I live in Massachusetts, and here we toss people who believe in "Gog" into boston harbor. This is absolutely insane. Are these people even christian? This sounds fully pagan, all these little demigods running around wreaking havoc. i thought there was god, and he was you know, THE ONE TRUE GOD. how can there be other supernatural beings? how powerful is god compared to them? who made Mog (or whatever the frack its called)?! 'And on the 7th day, god rested. He took a nap and then got up and made 'Mogog" and this other thing called "Gog".... THEN he was done!"
Failed attempts at stand-up comedy aside, Gog and Magog are mentioned in the Bible, so you can't really make a case for them being any more "pagan" than anything else in there. Also, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about what they're supposed to be. Apparently, the Biblical references are somewhat ambiguous, possibly referring to cities, people, etc.
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post #20 of 42
8/8/09 at 3:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Failed attempts at stand-up comedy aside, Gog and Magog are mentioned in the Bible, so you can't really make a case for them being any more "pagan" than anything else in there. Also, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about what they're supposed to be. Apparently, the Biblical references are somewhat ambiguous, possibly referring to cities, people, etc.
yes, it WAS failed stand up comedy, as i wrote it sitting down. also, i never said they were not mentioned in the Great Book of Middle Eastern Fairy Tales, as thats a book i never have bothered to read. i read The Cold Six Thousand though, and that was almost as long and I bet twice as good.


regardless of what a Magong is or is not, be it a city that doenst exist, or a magical monster that doesnt exist, its stupid and fake.
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post #21 of 42
8/8/09 at 3:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Thankfully I live in Massachusetts
I've never felt bad for being from where i'm from before. Kate, please stop telling people you're from Massachusetts, it makes my stomach and my heart hurt.
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post #22 of 42
8/8/09 at 3:48pm
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Originally Posted by Bryan ODonnell View Post
I've never felt bad for being from where i'm from before. Kate, please stop telling people you're from Massachusetts, it makes my stomach and my heart hurt.
why would you feel bad to be from massachusetts...? the american revolution started here, we have universal health care, gay marriage, we're the most patriotic, obama gave his first nationally televisied speech in our state..... trying to come up with reasons to be embarrassed to be from massachusetts other than officer crowely, and am coming up empty
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post #23 of 42
8/8/09 at 4:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
why would you feel bad to be from massachusetts...?
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post #24 of 42
8/8/09 at 4:02pm
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Originally Posted by Bryan ODonnell View Post
oh, ok, thats mean. i'd have thought you'd be excited to find another bay stater on here
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post #25 of 42
8/8/09 at 10:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
THE ONE TRUE GOD. how can there be other supernatural beings?
Emphasis on 'True.' The 'and you will worship me above all others' line kind of explicitly allows for the existence of other gods and supernatural beings. The point of the first commandment is that the Jews are only allowed to worship YHWH (or worship Him the most).
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post #26 of 42
8/8/09 at 11:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
You know what? In this I think I'll take Chirac's word. He's not some fringe dwelling loon.
Last I checked he was still, well, fucking French, though.
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post #27 of 42
8/9/09 at 12:40am
I think he's about as well liked in France as Blair in Britain tbh.
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post #28 of 42
8/9/09 at 12:45am
Gog and Magog are also used in Skull and Bones initiations. Dubya would know about them from there, but, to be fair, that doesn't establish that he knows them as characters in the Book of Revelations. That being that, I'm inclined to believe this since a) it doesn't affect my life one iota now that this bastard is out of the office, and b) it reinforces my dislike for the man.

As for reasons to be embarrassed about Mass, I have one: Boston Sports Fans. Most annoying motherfuckers this side of New York Sports Fans.
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post #29 of 42
8/9/09 at 3:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt View Post
Gog and Magog are also used in Skull and Bones initiations.
Am I the only one to immediately think Beowulf and maybe that's where everyone would know these names?
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post #30 of 42
8/9/09 at 10:43am
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Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Last I checked he was still, well, fucking French, though.
If this is a comment made in all seriousness you're an utter tool...



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post #31 of 42
8/9/09 at 10:49am
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Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
If this is a comment made in all seriousness you're an utter tool...
Pour vous, M. Rain Dog -

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post #32 of 42
8/9/09 at 11:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB View Post
Gog and Magog are mentioned in the Bible, so you can't really make a case for them being any more "pagan" than anything else in there. Also, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about what they're supposed to be. Apparently, the Biblical references are somewhat ambiguous, possibly referring to cities, people, etc.
That's the problem. Many things in the book are so open to interpretaion that they can be forced into any belief system or sets of behavior. The less ambiguous stuff: ten commandments, love thy neighbor, turn the other cheek, etc are usually mentioned as more of a cover story.

These people have seen Armaggedon as coming around the corner for centuries. Have you ever watched Jack van Impe? The guy mentions violence, war, starvation and diseases (AIDS, swine flu) as if they're recent phenomena.

I've also noticed that Fundies don't say WWJD as much: it puts them in a position of having to do something Jesus would've done; such as self sacrifice for others, love your enemy as yourself. How can you call Obama Hitler when you have to do that?
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post #33 of 42
8/9/09 at 10:39pm
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Originally Posted by MissZooey View Post
Pour vous, M. Rain Dog -
Merci beaucoup mademoiselle.
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post #34 of 42
8/10/09 at 4:52am
RD you really should address MissZooey as madame not mademoiselle. This is a big faux pas mon ami. Dave might get angry.
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post #35 of 42
8/10/09 at 10:33am
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Originally Posted by Bryan ODonnell View Post
Late to the party, but this is sheer genius.
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post #36 of 42
8/10/09 at 11:51am
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Originally Posted by stelios View Post
RD you really should address MissZooey as madame not mademoiselle. This is a big faux pas mon ami. Dave might get angry.
Not necessarily. Form-wise, sure, it's supposed to be madame, but it's informally it's used as a "compliment", denoting the lady as a younger-looking woman.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Last we checked I was still, well, a fucking retard, though.
Indeed.
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post #37 of 42
8/10/09 at 12:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Rain Dog View Post
If this is a comment made in all seriousness you're an utter tool...
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Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
Indeed.


Not that I'm inclined to believe the story anyway.
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post #38 of 42
8/10/09 at 12:10pm
You've shown to be really dumb before. Like, a lot.
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post #39 of 42
8/10/09 at 12:42pm
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Originally Posted by Martin Savage View Post
You've shown to be really dumb before. Like, a lot.
Or more likely I've shown to disagree with you and the vast majority of leftists that populate this and most forums.

C'est la vie.

See what I did there?
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post #40 of 42
8/10/09 at 12:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
Or more likely I've shown to disagree with you and the vast majority of leftists that populate this and most forums.

C'est la vie.

See what I did there?
I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, really. Just show intelligence from time to time, debate, and express your viewpoint in a coherent manner. That's all.

And I'll give you prop, you didn't even use the sentence "Voulez-vous coucher avec moi ce soir?". Thank you for that.
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post #41 of 42
8/10/09 at 12:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Devildoubt View Post
Gog and Magog are also used in Skull and Bones initiations.
I heard about that too. The "Gog" title goes to the member with the least sexual experience, "Magog" to the one with the most. In other words, "Magog" is the guy who can talk the most shit, "Gog" is a really bad liar. I'd really like to know how they bestow those titles...

Bush Sr. was a "Magog". You have to wonder what it did to W's little fundie brain when "Magog" was attacking Iraq during the first Gulf War.
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post #42 of 42
8/11/09 at 11:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rheokhu View Post
I've spent most of my life breathing the air as some of these people. Your stereotypical modern fundamentalist might think Jesus spoke English, advocated for the death penalty, and hated the unemployed, but by Jove they know every kaiju monster character in Revelations.
Bingo. Though they're not Kaiju, they're Pokemon.

Bush's dumbness is at least partly an act, but even if it wasn't I'd be willing to bet he can recite scripture on command. That's not the same as actually comprehending what it means or having an independent understanding of its morality that doesn't come from manipulative right-wing fucks, of course.

I've linked to it before, as have many others, but Slacktivist is really the go-to site for an insider's perspective on the distorted mentality of fundamentalists.
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