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Bad Guys That Are Really The Good Guys

post #1 of 149
Thread Starter 
Now, let me preface this by saying I don't mean twists in films that reveal a character you've thought was the bad guy suddenly to be the good guy. Nor am I talking about anti-heroes, or the like. Also, Watchmen isn't really an example of what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is films where, objectively, the actions of the antagonist compared to those of the protagonist(s) paint them as more in the right, morally speaking, although the film doesn't specifically state this.

The example that got me thinking this over is Escape From New York. I'd seen that movie countless times since I was knee high to piss, but it wasn't until my last viewing (Cinemapocolypse baby!) that I realized that Isaac Hayes's The Duke is really, objectively, the hero of the film. Granted, Snake Plisken has always been painted as an anti-hero, but I'd never considered just how on the side of right The Duke is. Think about it, what does he do to make him a villain? It's never stated what crime he committed to land himself in New York, nor is he ever shown acting cruel or malicious. His entire goal is to get THE ENTIRE prison populace, his people, back to freedom. One may look at this as his crime, but it's clear that their situation is one of a corrupt justice system. Their punishment and subsequent living conditions are inhumane, and The Duke comes off as much more of a freedom fighter than a villain. It's said at one point that he's a guy you wouldn't cross, but he's shown as somewhat more forgiving. He certainly forgives Brain for his first betrayal and he doesn't outright kill Pliskin when he has the chance (rather letting him fight it out in a fair, if brutal, match). The worst thing he's shown doing is taking those shots at Pleasonton's president, but its heavily alluded to at the start that Pleasonton runs a government with some fascistic leanings, and by the end he's outright shown to be a prick. All I'm saying is if I had Bush strapped to a wall...well, let's not get into that.

What think you all of my reading of this film? What other films do you bring a similar reading to?
post #2 of 149
post #3 of 149
Thread Starter 
Yeah, but the thing with that is that the movie openly posits the moral implications of his actions. I'm looking for something that on the surface has a much more black/white set-up as to who the viewers interest is invested in seeing overcome their opposition, but through a personal reading (or very subtle, sly telling) said viewer comes to a different conclusion.

I'll give another example: Miller's Crossing.

Now, it goes without saying that in a movie where all of the characters are cold-blooded gangsters, no one is really the good guy. However, we as an audience are squarely on the side of Gabriel Byrne's Tom and Albert Finney's Leo. But watching it, it always strikes me that the most honorable character (again--in a universe of men without traditional honor) is John Politio's Casper. Like Byrne says at the beginning, he didn't break any rules, Leo did. And he's completely honest with Byrne, to the point of giving him ammo to later trick him with. I love everything about the film and how it plays out, but I definitely know I'm rooting for the wrong guy, and specifically because of the way I read the film. With Watchmen, the film and comic (pretty much) explicitly asks me to consider which character's final outlook do I most agree, whereas no such question is asked in either of the other films I've used as examples.
post #4 of 149
Pirates 3. The main villain and the East India Trading Company are trying to eliminate the scourge of piracy from the Americas. Presumably, it's not the freedom and coolness of the pirates they object to, but rather the theft, rape, and murder.

The Lone Biker of the Apocalypse in Raising Arizona is a dick and a mercenary, but he is trying to rescue the Nathan jr. from his kidnappers.

I had another good one, but I forgot it while writing about Pirates 3.
post #5 of 149
Uh...The Duke holds fights where people beat each other with baseball bats with nails in them for his amusement. As well as using the President for target practice until he calls him "The Duke of New York." Doesn't really come across as a dude who's anything but in love with his own ego. I mean, he forces the President to call him The Duke. That right there says a lot about him.

Also, the Lone Biker of the Apocalypse pretty much flat out said that if Nathan Arizona didn't give him more money, he'd find and sell his kid on the black market (an easy way to make him a bad guy, sure.)

But I completely agree about Johnny Casper. He really is an honorable guy, and if it weren't for Bernie being Verna's brother, I'm sure Leo and Casper would both agree to knock him off no problem. Bernie is the real villain of the piece, an irredeemable scumbag who blackmails the man who spares his life.

Also agree about Pirates 3. That whole movie was weird. But Pirates 1 had that too, with a villain who just wanted to be human and not skeleton again. Hell, when he's about to make the blood sacrifice, he merely cuts Elizabeth's hand!

Let The Right One In features our protagonists brutally murdering a guy who's seeking vengeance on the creature that murdered his best friend and wife. Granted, he's never presented as a "bad guy."

Also, In Bruges has Ralph Fienes be the most noble crime boss imaginable, a man who, at the very end, "sticks to his principles." I'm fairly certain that, had he not been made aware of Ray's presence, he would've let Ken live, which really says a lot about him. In the end, he's really just hunting down a guy who murdered a kid.
post #6 of 149
Thread Starter 
Re: The Duke:

As I stated though, the President that he's using as target practice is at the very least a huge asshole, and probably closer to a dictator. And yeah, the fight he puts Snake in is brutal, but from his vantage it doesn't make sense to let Snake just walk away, and letting him fight for his survival is still better than straight up killing him, which he more than had the chance to do. No doubt he's egotistical--but I think the man who actually has the balls to drive a Caddy with chandeliers on its hood deserves that kind of an ego. Talk about style.
post #7 of 149
Starship Troopers may be too obvious as a choice, and in its good Bad Guys. The Tusken Raiders in Star Wars I assume are defending land they settled long before humanoids showed up.

Every Western might count.

I'm a little hazy on my Miller's Crossing, but Polito is the aggressor in a war. His pride is hurt by Leo giving him the high hat, and he's too stupid to have any empathy for his opponent. Or Turturro could be a pretext, the war plans already drawn up. (Or not, if a specific scene contradicts this.)

Fiennes is similar. He ends up killing a friend, an underling, a bystander and himself, and just before doing so, understands where Farrell is coming from. He is no way good, unless you believe in (instant, absurd) capital punishment. His trip to Bruges is based in it being a "matter of honor" and horror at usurping of his authority. That's why it's so funny when he demands Gleeson say he has the capacity to change. He can't imagine Farrell's predicament.
post #8 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
Pirates 3. The main villain and the East India Trading Company are trying to eliminate the scourge of piracy from the Americas.
People keep saying this, and it's wrong. The East India Company's goal is absolute control over all sea trade. Illustrated by the free trader ship in the second film that can't make port anywhere except Tortuga because the EIC owns all the ports. Making port at a free port brands one a pirate followed by swift death at the guns of the EIC fleet and/or the Flying Dutchman.

OT: 10,000 BC. The big nameless bad guy is apparently the last survivor of Atlantis, and is trying to rebuild his civilization in what will eventually be Egypt. So a few thousand savages are enslaved and worked to death. Small price to pay for a 6,000 year technological jump start, I say.
post #9 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
People keep saying this, and it's wrong. The East India Company's goal is absolute control over all sea trade. Illustrated by the free trader ship in the second film that can't make port anywhere except Tortuga because the EIC owns all the ports. Making port at a free port brands one a pirate followed by swift death at the guns of the EIC fleet and/or the Flying Dutchman.
That basically means that everyone sucks then, because the pirates sure as hell aren't good guys. It makes Elizabeth's passionate plea ridiculously stupid since she's arguing for piracy instead of freer trade on the seas.
post #10 of 149
Thread Starter 
"I'm a little hazy on my Miller's Crossing, but Polito is the aggressor in a war."

Actually he's not. Finney assumes he is after they find his thug, Rug Daniels, shot, but it turns out Mink (Buscemi) is the one that kills him. Due to this understanding he sicks the police force on Polito, which is what really sets the war off. Byrn's character is able to figure this out because up to that first raid on Polito's joint, Polito is trying to buy him off so as to avoid war, something he wouldn't do if he'd just started knocking off Leo's guys. (I just watched this again last night, hence why its so fresh in my mind)

Hellboy 2 was an example I was going to also mention, but I think the motivations of the main antagonist are very much a central concern to the film, and therefore doesn't really fit under the criteria I myself came up with (though by no means do I feel this thread should adhere to strictly).
post #11 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
So a few thousand savages are enslaved and worked to death. Small price to pay for a 6,000 year technological jump start, I say.
Right you are, Adrian!

The Lost World: Jurassic Park. InGen is shown as these horrible motherfuckers and everything they do is a crime against nature and oh they are so mean!

The bad guy says something to the extent of "We created these animals, they wouldn't be around without our funding and research, therefore we own them."

And what were their evil plans with them? Move them to another zoo on the mainland, rather than an exotic island. Meanwhile, good guy Vince Vaughn releases caged dinosaurs into a crowded camp, killing dozens.
post #12 of 149
This thread should be called "anti-villains", a term Shawn Ryan coined to describe Forest Whitaker's character on The Shield. He certainly plays an antagonistic role, but he's mostly just trying to out the dirtiest cop in history, which is a rather desirable goal objectively.
post #13 of 149
Along the same lines of Pirates: The Last Samurai. Hey, I like my chambara as much as the next guy, but objectively speaking the samurai were a practically useless (archaic warriors in a nation that hadn't gone to war for centuries) parasite class of a cruel and corrupt regime. Sure some of the westernization of the Meiji era was excessive, but really, no tears shed for the disappearence of bullying land owners.
post #14 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
"I'm a little hazy on my Miller's Crossing, but Polito is the aggressor in a war."

Actually he's not. Finney assumes he is after they find his thug, Rug Daniels, shot, but it turns out Mink (Buscemi) is the one that kills him. Due to this understanding he sicks the police force on Polito, which is what really sets the war off. Byrn's character is able to figure this out because up to that first raid on Polito's joint, Polito is trying to buy him off so as to avoid war, something he wouldn't do if he'd just started knocking off Leo's guys. (I just watched this again last night, hence why its so fresh in my mind)
I'll concede your point and bow to your actually having just seen it. But I can't resist digging myself a further hole: isn't there a final escalation on Polito's part in the assassination attempt on Finney in his home?
post #15 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
OT: 10,000 BC. The big nameless bad guy is apparently the last survivor of Atlantis, and is trying to rebuild his civilization in what will eventually be Egypt.
This seriously happens in the movie? Please tell me this guy makes an appearance as well:

post #16 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felt Pelt View Post
I'll concede your point and bow to your actually having just seen it. But I can't resist digging myself a further hole: isn't there a final escalation on Polito's part in the assassination attempt on Finney in his home?
Not before the cops raid the bar (and rescue Tom from getting the crap beat out of him by his goons). At that point it's obvious Leo has declared war on Caspar. It's a variation of the "You bring a knife, I bring a gun" rule.
post #17 of 149
The Devil's Rejects. Most of the people I watch it with don't get that, as unlikable as he is, Wydell is 100 percent in the right through most the film.
post #18 of 149
'Hellraiser' - The immediate thought is that Pinhead and the other Cenobites are the bad guys, but really...what are they? They're dimensional travelers that inflict pain upon those that solve the puzzle box. They're just doing the job that they're meant to do in a fairly neutral manner. Frank is really the bad guy, and the Cenobites are the ones that end up bringing him to justice, not Kirstie.
post #19 of 149
Gene Hackman in Unforgiven was just trying to build his house and keep his town safe, goddamned it.
post #20 of 149
Thread Starter 
^^^It's true, he didn't deserve what happened to him.
post #21 of 149
Damn, that's a good one Overlord. Kudos.
post #22 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
This thread should be called "anti-villains", a term Shawn Ryan coined to describe Forest Whitaker's character on The Shield. He certainly plays an antagonistic role, but he's mostly just trying to out the dirtiest cop in history, which is a rather desirable goal objectively.
See also: Doakes in Dexter.
post #23 of 149
Aw, poor Doakes. It seems TV is filled with a lot of these types.
post #24 of 149
Clive Owen in Closer. He was perfectly fine being a doctor and jerking off in porno chat-rooms before Jude Law dragged him into everything. Not to mention, sleeping around with his wife.
post #25 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez View Post
^^^It's true, he didn't deserve what happened to him.
"Deserves got nothing to do with it."
post #26 of 149
What about the crooks we root for? The protagonist professional criminals? The Danny Oceans? The Don Corleones?

In many cases, we root for these characters to do wrong, to break the law, to escape justice. On one end of the spectrum, I'm talking about pulling off a heist (because who doesn't fantasize about that?). But often enough, we live vicariously through cinematic vigilantism too. Revenge. Or even slashers with their own screwed up moral codes. These are anti-heroes.

But you're talking of the guys who are trying to foil the plans of these "heroes"? The righteous antagonists? The Ahabs (slasher genre term)? Smokey? Roscoe P. Coltrane? The hardass college deans? The priveleged authority AKA The "Man"?

Or I AM LEGEND's vamps?
post #27 of 149
Roscoe P. Coltrane's a pretty brilliant example, actually. I wish I'd thought of it.
post #28 of 149
Who are you supposed to root for in What About Bob? Murray is technically the antagonist, but Dreyfus is repellent.
post #29 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil View Post
Who are you supposed to root for in What About Bob?
Frank Oz.

The guy doesn't direct enough.
post #30 of 149
I'm not sure where Romero's zombies land. Sometimes they're incidental villains, and more of a force than characters (akin to the giant spikey walls slowly moving in on Saturday morning serials), but would they be villains or heroes in Day and Land of the Dead?

How about Death in the Final Destination films? He/She/It really does need to kill these people...
post #31 of 149
Al Swearengen
Seth Bullock
Riddick

EDIT: actually i guess seth bullock would feel more at home on a list of "good guys who are not really good guys"
post #32 of 149
Not that it's not fun to think about, but isn't the moral murkiness of something like Escape from New York the whole point of the thing? Everybody in that movie is a self serving asshole, there are no heroes.

I also assume Duke isn't so much interested in anybody else's freedom as he is in using this personal army to amass even more power than he has. I find nothing heroic about his actions, but I do smile at the thought of the level of atrocity he had to achieve in order to be considered leader of the island of convicts.

Also, I've never considered the Romero zombies to be villains. The humans are never really undone by the zombies, but rather their own shortcomings.

EDIT: Also, Riddick definitely is disqualified. He's never even presented as a villian, except by Johns, the drug addled 'lawman'.
post #33 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabe Powers View Post
I'm not sure where Romero's zombies land. Sometimes they're incidental villains, and more of a force than characters (akin to the giant spikey walls slowly moving in on Saturday morning serials), but would they be villains or heroes in Day and Land of the Dead?
In the case of Rhodes & his crew (at least in the third act), who wouldn't go bat-shit nuts after the scientist you've given the benefit of the doubt for God-knows-how-long was actually fucking around the whole time and feeding your men to zombies?

Yeah, I'd have shot Logan's ass down too.
post #34 of 149
So who are you supposed to root for in Heat?
post #35 of 149
Hanna, all the way. What little interest or sympathy I hold for McCauley goes right out the window when he permanently deafens those security guards in the armored car, and then guns one of them down to finish Waingros' killing spree. Total scumbag; I don't care if he's a "professional."

Of course there's Harry in NIGHT OF THE LIVING DEAD. He was right all along: they should've stayed in the basement.
post #36 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith F View Post
Not that it's not fun to think about, but isn't the moral murkiness of something like Escape from New York the whole point of the thing? Everybody in that movie is a self serving asshole, there are no heroes.

I also assume Duke isn't so much interested in anybody else's freedom as he is in using this personal army to amass even more power than he has. I find nothing heroic about his actions, but I do smile at the thought of the level of atrocity he had to achieve in order to be considered leader of the island of convicts.

Also, I've never considered the Romero zombies to be villains. The humans are never really undone by the zombies, but rather their own shortcomings.

EDIT: Also, Riddick definitely is disqualified. He's never even presented as a villian, except by Johns, the drug addled 'lawman'.
riddick WAS a bad guy. are you kidding? he was an evil murderer!

also, he wanted to leave keith david and the kid to die, and had to be guilt tripped into not leaving. how is he not a bad guy?
post #37 of 149
Since we're using TV examples: Kavanaugh from The Shield. His actions are certainly no more questionable than most of the characters on that show and he's trying to bring down dirty cops.
post #38 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Kate View Post
Al Swearengen
No, Swearengen is absolutely a bad guy. A terribly charismatic bad guy who is prone to decency now and then, but a bad guy. It's only because the show puts him up against even worse guys like Tolliver, Wolcott, and Hearst that he looks less repellent than he actually is.

Sure, you could argue that Al plays a major part in bringing civilization to Deadwood and making sure that there's law in a town without it, but that's not out of some bold belief in democracy and freedom. He does it because he knows it would make life difficult or easier, depending on the case, for him and his business (hookers, drugs, and drink) not to.
post #39 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
No, Swearengen is absolutely a bad guy. A terribly charismatic bad guy who is prone to decency now and then, but a bad guy. It's only because the show puts him up against even worse guys like Tolliver, Wolcott, and Hearst that he looks less repellent than he actually is.

Sure, you could argue that Al plays a major part in bringing civilization to Deadwood and making sure that there's law in a town without it, but that's not out of some bold belief in democracy and freedom. He does it because he knows it would make life difficult or easier, depending on the case, for him and his business (hookers, drugs, and drink) not to.
yeah, but in a world with a guy like hearst who said that he had someone burned alive and "tasted human flesh" .. i'll put al in the camp with the good guys. remember how al helped alma and comforted her when she was shot at , and when her husband was killed? al has morals, just few of them. hearst WAS evil and completely inhuman.

EDIT: or who knows, maybe we just have different definitions of the phrase "bad guy"
post #40 of 149
No, the thread is about people who are presented as the bad guys in the narrative, despite having goals that would be noble when considered.

Also, in case you forgot, Al murdered Alma's first husband.
post #41 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
No, the thread is about people who are presented as the bad guys in the narrative, despite having goals that would be noble when considered.

Also, in case you forgot, Al murdered Alma's first husband.
well why not just call the thread "anti-heroes", according to your definition of "Bad guy"? i feel al WAS a bad guy, not an anti hero, but he did right sometimes and ended up being the good guy, even if he was only there doing good stuff because of his own 'bad' self interests.

and yeah he killed brom garrett, but her husband was a know-nothing jerk who drove her to addiction... did you forget that?

edit: and he didnt even murder him! he had dan throw him off a cliff
post #42 of 149
In a court of law, Al would have been found as guilty of murder as Dan. Semantics.

Read the original post, because we're not talking about anti-heroes here.
post #43 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
In a court of law, Al would have been found as guilty of murder as Dan. Semantics.

Read the original post, because we're not talking about anti-heroes here.
are you seriously forgetting the whole point of deadwood was that it was in indian territory and therefore was not subject to the laws of the united states? no court could have tried al, much less convicted him.

and i know we are not talking about anti heroes, i was saying, your definition of bad guy as it applies to this thread sounds like nothing more than an anti hero. i think al, being definitely a bad guy, but doing good stuff sometimes, fits the definition of this thread. thats all.
post #44 of 149
No, that's not the definition of the thread AT ALL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the first fucking post of the thread
Now, let me preface this by saying I don't mean twists in films that reveal a character you've thought was the bad guy suddenly to be the good guy. Nor am I talking about anti-heroes, or the like. Also, Watchmen isn't really an example of what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is films where, objectively, the actions of the antagonist compared to those of the protagonist(s) paint them as more in the right, morally speaking, although the film doesn't specifically state this.
Please explain how Al's actions put him in the right, morally speaking. Sure he might be a good guy who's nice to hookers and is capable of human decency, but he is fundamentally a bad guy who is only out for himself. The moral complexity of Al, and the show, is one of the reasons why it's so great, but I'm just saying, you're trying to stick a round peg in a square hole and it's not flying.

Also, I own the complete series. I know that there's no law in Deadwood. I know that's the point of the show -- to show how law, order, is formed when there is none. How a society without rules exists. But you were being semantic about who really killed Alma's first husband, and I was responding in kind.
post #45 of 149
Ooh, Deadwood chatter. First mistake you're both making: there is absolutely no Good or Evil in Deadwood. This doesn't eliminate morality, as Saul Starr is pretty much an unequivocable moral person. But a major theme of the show is that there aren't heroes or villains, only the appearance thereof. Alma is an addict because of her own personality, not because her husband is a douchebag. She relapses later because it makes it easier for her to fuck Ellsworth. Al looks out for his own interests, and the only reason he opposes Hearst is because Hearst's plans run counter to Al's. And don't get me started on Bullock. Even the Dillahunt characters and their violence come from a place of confusion and insecurity. The only out and out Black Hat on the show is Hearst, but truth be told, that's just because everyone else hates him so much. If you strip away the emotional components, nothing he does is any worse that what the others are up to.

By the way, I love when Bullock says "Can't shut up! Every bully I've ever known never knew when to shut his fuckin' mouth!...Except when they're afraid". That's apropos of nothing, it's just awesome.

Oh, the thread. Christopher Lee in Man With the Golden Gun. Scaramanga is a professional assassin, but then, so's James Bond. And his evil superplan is to perfect and sell cost-effective solar power...to the highest bidder!
post #46 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
No, that's not the definition of the thread AT ALL.



Please explain how Al's actions put him in the right, morally speaking. Sure he might be a good guy who's nice to hookers and is capable of human decency, but he is fundamentally a bad guy who is only out for himself. The moral complexity of Al, and the show, is one of the reasons why it's so great, but I'm just saying, you're trying to stick a round peg in a square hole and it's not flying.

Also, I own the complete series. I know that there's no law in Deadwood. I know that's the point of the show -- to show how law, order, is formed when there is none. How a society without rules exists. But you were being semantic about who really killed Alma's first husband, and I was responding in kind.
1) al was not nice to hookers. in the first episode he has his boot on trixie's throat for crying out loud, and later murders jenny who did nothing wrong to anyone
2) fine, lets agree to disagree. i can see that maybe al is a rather round peg for this hole, however i felt confident in my ability to mash him through the hole anyway. i can see he is a complicated character and requires alot of thought and debate.
post #47 of 149
They kinda try to evil it up by showing us OOOH THE SOLAR POWER CAN ALSO MAKE LASERS.
post #48 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
Ooh, Deadwood chatter. First mistake you're both making: there is absolutely no Good or Evil in Deadwood. This doesn't eliminate morality, as Saul Starr is pretty much an unequivocable moral person. But a major theme of the show is that there aren't heroes or villains, only the appearance thereof. Alma is an addict because of her own personality, not because her husband is a douchebag. She relapses later because it makes it easier for her to fuck Ellsworth. Al looks out for his own interests, and the only reason he opposes Hearst is because Hearst's plans run counter to Al's. And don't get me started on Bullock. Even the Dillahunt characters and their violence come from a place of confusion and insecurity. The only out and out Black Hat on the show is Hearst, but truth be told, that's just because everyone else hates him so much. If you strip away the emotional components, nothing he does is any worse that what the others are up to.

By the way, I love when Bullock says "Can't shut up! Every bully I've ever known never knew when to shut his fuckin' mouth!...Except when they're afraid". That's apropos of nothing, it's just awesome.

Oh, the thread. Christopher Lee in Man With the Golden Gun. Scaramanga is a professional assassin, but then, so's James Bond. And his evil superplan is to perfect and sell cost-effective solar power...to the highest bidder!
the only person or force i found "evil" on deadwood was hearst and his unhinged capitalism.


and yes, it is awesome when bullock says that. also because you realize its true... the only time hearst shut up in the past 4 minutes was when bullock actually snapped at him to shut up.



also awesome ? "you sound drunk.." and "no, fuck YOOOOOU!" lol

also? when alma talks about precaution never being juvenial when so many in the camp with which he 's had dealings have been murdered, and when she says that the only thing she acknowleged was that "pretense of civility, in a man so brutally vicious, as vapid and grotesque"... go alma!
post #49 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
Ooh, Deadwood chatter. First mistake you're both making: there is absolutely no Good or Evil in Deadwood. This doesn't eliminate morality, as Saul Starr is pretty much an unequivocable moral person. But a major theme of the show is that there aren't heroes or villains, only the appearance thereof. Alma is an addict because of her own personality, not because her husband is a douchebag. She relapses later because it makes it easier for her to fuck Ellsworth. Al looks out for his own interests, and the only reason he opposes Hearst is because Hearst's plans run counter to Al's. And don't get me started on Bullock. Even the Dillahunt characters and their violence come from a place of confusion and insecurity. The only out and out Black Hat on the show is Hearst, but truth be told, that's just because everyone else hates him so much. If you strip away the emotional components, nothing he does is any worse that what the others are up to.
I completely agree with you, for what it's worth. I just didn't like the assertion that Al was included in the list under the parameters of the original poster.
post #50 of 149
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu View Post
I completely agree with you, for what it's worth. I just didn't like the assertion that Al was included in the list under the parameters of the original poster.
Right, if we're talking morality, definately not. You wouldn't say Tony Soprano is actually a good guy. He's just the protagonist.

ETA: Goddamn it, now I want to do a ton of Deadwood posting.
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