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The release of the Lockerbie bomber

post #1 of 27
Thread Starter 


"Gordon Brown in new storm over freed Lockerbie bomber"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/au...dafi-lockerbie

So this was kind of a big deal last week while I was in Scotland, surprised there isn't a thread about it already. So what's the deal, it seems there's some funny political shenanigans going on in the background, and some real incompetence being displayed here by Gordon Brown's government.

Did they really believe that the Libyans wouldn't throw a parade for this guy? And if they really wanted to release him, couldn't they extract a confession and apology from him in the first place? I was reading this story on the plane back home, and it almost sounded to me like this was a case were they weren't sure if the guy was really guilty or not since he was so clear about proclaiming his innocence even after being released.
post #2 of 27
Personally, I'm split on this. I can't tell if he looks more like Keith Richards or Santana.
post #3 of 27
Actually it was a Scottish parliment (Scottish National Party) decison that no one backed. Even the labour party in Scoland (who are the opposition) are calling them out on it.

There is a rumour that somehow Brown was involved thing but basically it was the Scottish Justice ministers decision to do it. And everyone and their grandmother is calling them out on it.


It's one of the few times the English can take a step back and say "nothing to do with us mate."

I'm pretty sure it will kill the Scottish first minster's (PM) career.
post #4 of 27
Been doing a bit of reading on this and it seems like the bombers original conviction was very, very dodgy. No trial by jury, highly suspect evidence etc. A lot of people think he is a patsy.

But, he was convicted and releasing a man convicted of the deaths of 270 people on "compassionate grounds" is something I can't really get my head around at the minute. Could he not have been moved to a hospice in Scotland at the very least?
post #5 of 27
it was career suicide to release him, the fallout should be interesting.
post #6 of 27
Excerpt from Letters to The Daily Telrgraph:

SIR – It is unprecedented for Robert Mueller, the head of the FBI, to attack Scottish ministers over the release of the Lockerbie bomber, and to claim that their action "make a mockery of the rule of law". Mr Mueller writes: "Where, I ask, is the justice?"

It is a good question. For all the anguish and criticism, the simple fact seems to have been ignored – this was a quasi-judicial decision.

Kenny MacAskill, the Scottish justice minister, acted under powers conferred on him by statute where, on application by a prisoner, he may authorise a release if he is satisfied that there are compassionate grounds.

Megrahi made such an application and was entitled under the law to have it considered. There are two elements to such a decision. First, do compassionate grounds exist? If they do, then should the prisoner be released?

On the first point, Mr MacAskill took advice from the prison governor, from social work officials at the prison, from medical professionals and from the Parole Board. All stated that Megrahi qualified for compassionate release.

Mr MacAskill has discretion in the matter, but has to apply his powers equitably, fairly and consistently. Any prisoner submitting such a request has the right to be treated equally under the law.

Since 2000, in Scotland, there have been 31 applications for compassionate release and of those, all but seven have been granted. Those seven were refused because they did not fulfil the criteria as judged by the relevant professionals. Megrahi's application was the sixth to come before Mr MacAskill and, like the other five, it was granted.

There would have been more to worry about had Megrahi been refused. Political interference in the judicial system is the mark of dictators such as Colonel Gaddafi. We don't want it in Scotland.

The decision does not make a mockery of the rule of law. It upholds the rule of law in the face of political pressure.
post #7 of 27
As much as I think that Libyans are raging assholes for throwing a party I think his release was the right thing to do. If, from what I understand, there is a law in place that permits convicts with terminal conditions to be released so they can die in their homes, it has to be followed. And with all due consideration to the victims' families, it's our belief in the rule of law and our compassion that should separate us from those who would murder innocents to make a political statement.
post #8 of 27
You are right there is a law in place. The same law was used in England the week before to relase Ronny Biggs (the great train robber) who is also on his death bed.

However I don't think the law should be used in the case of mass murderers.
post #9 of 27
The problem is that the case against him was so incredibly flimsy. It seemed more of a "He'll do" conviction than one actually based on evidence. He's been appealing for a retrial since the early 90's and keeps getting turned down. It's not hard to believe that someone somewhere saw this as an excuse to free him without admitting wrong.
post #10 of 27
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrVenkman View Post
The problem is that the case against him was so incredibly flimsy. It seemed more of a "He'll do" conviction than one actually based on evidence. He's been appealing for a retrial since the early 90's and keeps getting turned down. It's not hard to believe that someone somewhere saw this as an excuse to free him without admitting wrong.
To me this is what makes this even more wrong. When I read about this case and his statements, it just made me wonder if that's exactly what happened. But you should use this as a mechanism to say "well, we might have screwed up". If the case was "flimsy" in the beginning, they should have investigated that and opened up the case.

It would also seem context matters, I guess their law makes no distinction as to how many people he killed, but that and the party they might throw at him on release should have been big factors for release. Plus, he really didn't serve that much time for this crime, it doesn't seem fair that a perpetrator of a much lesser crime would serve less time than somebody who killed hundreds of people.

I completely reject that notion though that releasing this type of criminal makes us human instead of animals.

We use that argument against the death penalty or just raw acts of revenge. But you keep saying it enough times and then you might start even questioning why we even bother to put people into jail. You can't keep saying that forever.
post #11 of 27
If we allow "slippery slope" arguments, we'll have to allow all sorts of other logical fallacies. Before you know it, we won't be able to debate at all!

I'm one of those guys. I completely embrace the notion that releasing this type of criminal makes us human instead of animals. And by us, of course, I mean the Scots. Civilized people can see the difference between acting civilized and acting like a pussy. Displays of mercy project strength. Tearing up our country's Constitution and opening gulags has broadcast the weakness and fear of a whole generation of chickenhawks.
post #12 of 27
I have to say, I was anti release till I saw wolf blitzers dispicable and dishonest interview with the scottish official in charge of release. Then I came around after watching that man calmly reason and describe his decision making. I am now pro release
post #13 of 27
Thread Starter 
Not releasing a criminal that murdered over 200 people in a calculated fashion, an served less than a decade for his crime is not primitive or animal like at all. You guys are really stretching things.
post #14 of 27
McAskill followed the law and precedent. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

To not do that would be a betrayal of principle.
post #15 of 27
Thread Starter 
"Lockerbie bomber's prognosis under 'significant doubt'"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...ant-doubt.html
post #16 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
As much as I think that Libyans are raging assholes for throwing a party I think his release was the right thing to do. If, from what I understand, there is a law in place that permits convicts with terminal conditions to be released so they can die in their homes, it has to be followed. And with all due consideration to the victims' families, it's our belief in the rule of law and our compassion that should separate us from those who would murder innocents to make a political statement.
yeah well, he should die in prison.
post #17 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackstar View Post
McAskill followed the law and precedent. Isn't that what we're supposed to do?

To not do that would be a betrayal of principle.
I got all huffy and forgot to mention this. An executive who enforces the law on the books, even when it doesn't suit him, isn't a stretch in law-abiding countries. That the idea seems controversial here shows how far we've declined in recent years.
post #18 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
yeah well, he should die in prison.
Maybe in your mind - the law of the country in question says different.
post #19 of 27
I'm sorry, I'm late to this discussion... does the law in country say he must be released, that he should be released, or that he can be released?
post #20 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick View Post
yeah well, he should die in prison.
Well, when the same question came up for the leaders or Greece's military dictatorship which were also sentenced to life imprisonment my opinion was the same. And these assholes undisputedly caused a ridiculously larger amount of damage to my country than this guy did to the UK and the US.

Again it's the bad guys that get to ignore laws and decency. The good guys have to live up to their ideals or they aren't the good guys at all. And I'd rather democracies to err on the side of too much compassion than too little.
post #21 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios View Post
Well, when the same question came up for the leaders or Greece's military dictatorship which were also sentenced to life imprisonment my opinion was the same. And these assholes undisputedly caused a ridiculously larger amount of damage to my country than this guy did to the UK and the US.

Again it's the bad guys that get to ignore laws and decency. The good guys have to live up to their ideals or they aren't the good guys at all. And I'd rather democracies to err on the side of too much compassion than too little.
Seriously: what's the point of even HAVING life in prison if you're going to let people out to die? It's so ridiculous. Let the family come to the prisoner. This is an insane concept, honestly. And if you're going to do something as crazy as this, you should let the guy out when he's right on death's fucking door.
post #22 of 27
His release is insane by any standard.

Life in the UK is 25 years, so he didn't even serve half of one life sentence and I'm pretty sure he got more than one. Even if the conviction was shakey it makes it look more so by releasing him the way they did (getting him to drop his appeal).

Point is it was a dumb decision and the SNP have shot themeselves in the foot. When the Labour party come out of something looking good you know you have screwed up.

On a side note the whole matter is confused with the issue of Devolution. Scotland, Wals NI all have their own governments that are overseen by the Brittish one. England does not have a seperate government yet can claim in some cases to have nothing to do with decison making.

It's a dumb system, ether England needs to get its own parliment as well and the Brittish one has overall authority or there needs to be more seperation.
post #23 of 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf View Post
Seriously: what's the point of even HAVING life in prison if you're going to let people out to die? It's so ridiculous. Let the family come to the prisoner. This is an insane concept, honestly. And if you're going to do something as crazy as this, you should let the guy out when he's right on death's fucking door.
I'm not a lawyer so I may be wrong but I think that life just means that there isn't a set amount of time after which you have to be released. And as for being on death's door, I heard that the doctors that testified gave him a couple of months at most. That's close enough for me. If they're wrong then, yes, he shouldn't have been released.
post #24 of 27
As I mentioned above, life in the uk is 25 years, you can get parole after about 15 years.
post #25 of 27
It isn't a mandated 25 years. Life is an indeterminate sentence, against which the judge sets a minimum tariff in England. In Scotland, I believe the same holds true.

Exceptions against the tariff may exist - terminal health, for example.
post #26 of 27
Thread Starter 
Well what you do you know, anybody surprised?

"Lockerbie bomber 'set free for oil'"
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6814939.ece
post #27 of 27
The thick plottens....

Lockerbie memos pile pressure on Brown

Quote:
British Prime Minister Gordon Brown has been dragged back into the controversy over the release of the Lockerbie bomber after it was revealed he did not want Abdelbaset al-Megrahi to die in jail.

Letters and memos released by Westminster and the Scottish Parliament suggest that both Mr Brown and Foreign Secretary David Miliband expressed the view that the decision to release Megrahi lay with the Scottish Executive but that neither wanted him to end his life in prison.

The minutes of a meeting in Glasgow in March with the Libyan Minister for Europe, Abdul Ati al-Obeidi, reveal that Tripoli expressed clearly to Scottish ministers that Megrahi's death in a Scottish prison would have ''catastrophic effects'' on the relationship between Britain and Libya.

The notes, released on Tuesday, suggest Mr Obeidi was reassured by then Foreign Office minister Bill Rammell that ''neither the Prime Minister nor the Foreign Secretary would want Mr Megrahi to pass away in prison''.

Until yesterday, Mr Brown had insisted the British Government had no involvement in the release of Megrahi, who was allowed to return to Libya on compassionate grounds by Scottish Justice Secretary Kenny MacAskill last month. The convicted bomber is dying of prostate cancer.
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